--- Log opened Sat Nov 14 00:00:16 2020 00:13 -!- dc81 [~dc81@96.44.189.130] has joined #joinmarket 00:13 -!- dc81 [~dc81@96.44.189.130] has quit [Changing host] 00:13 -!- dc81 [~dc81@unaffiliated/dc81] has joined #joinmarket 00:14 -!- dc81_ [~dc81@96.44.189.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:28 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has joined #joinmarket 01:36 -!- Evanito [~Evanito@cpe-76-87-174-228.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18 -!- Stefan1McGlynn [~Stefan1Mc@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 03:33 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #joinmarket 04:27 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 05:34 -!- nkuttler_ [~nkuttler@unaffiliated/nkuttler] has joined #joinmarket 05:34 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: nkuttler, azizLIGHT 05:36 -!- nkuttler_ is now known as nkuttler 05:38 -!- azizLIGHT [~azizLIGHT@unaffiliated/azizlight] has joined #joinmarket 05:44 -!- martindale [ericfabric@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-sokykneyrotskzoh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:44 -!- tiker[m] [tikerfunky@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-apsuxwagwanjiljw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:44 -!- remaeus [remaeusrol@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cvvxadtmkkwuxzxh] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:17 -!- tiker[m] [tikerfunky@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-arsttatrymzwrlbv] has joined #joinmarket 06:28 -!- martindale [ericfabric@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hqughkzmhrxeyjgl] has joined #joinmarket 06:28 -!- remaeus [remaeusrol@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lvpwmxupnlevwdxp] has joined #joinmarket 07:52 < waxwing> belcher, i read through https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/415 again, and i'm still not sure where we end up. the only things that seem clear to me are (a) fidelity bonds seem a logical way to defeat sybil but (b) makers as p2p network are not incentivised to actually perform the network function, i.e. gossip properly. 07:53 < belcher> yeah its not clear 07:53 < belcher> it would be nice if joinmarket supported makers without fidelity bonds really 07:54 < waxwing> well but even if somehow everyone used fidelity bonds, how do you get gossip to be incentive compatible? 07:56 < belcher> the method im doing for coinswap (i think i wrote down the same thing somewhere in that thread) is for makers to have their own .onion and takers connect directly to them, and for there to be a few volunteer-run http servers which do the gossiping by publishing all those maker's .onions 07:56 < belcher> so then the gossip isnt incentive compatible, but its very cheap so volunteers can do it 07:57 < waxwing> i see. in the thread it was 'directory servers' but yeah that can make sense. 07:57 < waxwing> i've been trying to research bulletin boards, along these lines. it seems like some papers effectively just end up talking about distributed consensus. 07:57 < belcher> yeah, theyve also been called "seeder servers", so a similar name to the DNS seeds used in bitcoin core 07:57 < belcher> it seems every p2p network needs some kind of starting point which is centralized 07:58 < belcher> the only exception i know of is botnets which make a p2p network of the bots, and they find a starting point by having every bot listen on a udp port and the bots spray the entire internet with udp ports until another bot replies with a message back... thats kind of like a bruteforce method of "starting off" 08:02 < waxwing> right but isn't bootstrapping a slightly different problem than keeping the network 'available' (in the sense of having some decent sense that you are really getting all the messages) 08:03 < belcher> yes you're right 08:04 < belcher> hmm right, so in the "seeder servers" solution bootstrapping and availability are solved in the same way... those http servers are up most of the time and their url is hard-coded into the application 08:05 < belcher> fwiw if the seeder servers go down for a little bit, takers who have downloaded the list of makers earlier can connect directly to those makers 08:05 < belcher> so its not like today with IRC where if all the IRC servers go down takers cant create coinjoins 08:06 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:07 < waxwing> it seems in a way that you're trying to get the benefits of both versions (centralized servers and decentralized networks) 08:09 < belcher> yes seems so 08:09 < belcher> though lots of existing decentralized networks use this model... for example bittorrent has centralized places to obtain torrent files or magnet links... and centralized torrent trackers 08:10 < belcher> the aim is to put as much work as possible onto the makers, because they have a strong incentive to keep running (so thats why makers host their own offers... recall to get a list of offers takers connect to every single maker and ask them for their offers) 08:10 < belcher> that way the least amount of work can put onto volunteers.. because they have no financial incentive 08:11 < belcher> (a better word for "work" might be "cost" here) 08:11 < waxwing> yes i was thinking about it earlier, and i think my goal is to somehow get faster, more robust market making at larger scale (like we can't realistically do a 50-100 party coinjoin now, and we can't realistically have a pit of 5000 bots) 08:11 < waxwing> but wrt to the privacy and censorship resistance, i'd be happy to just keep it as good as it is now 08:12 < waxwing> i mean just personal view ofc 08:12 < belcher> another barrier to 50-100 party coinjoins is miner fees 08:13 < waxwing> yes, true. that needn't be the case though, with fairly minor changes. 08:13 < belcher> which changes? 08:13 < waxwing> even technically today you can do negative cjfee joins 08:13 < belcher> ok but i dont see why makers would ever contribute 08:13 < waxwing> they might do it if it's cheaper than another way to get a coinjoin for the same amount 08:14 < waxwing> same argument we've had in the past, near-zero fees exist for this reason. it's a complicated tradeoff, but it is a tradeoff. 08:15 < waxwing> but all the same the point you raise is a very big friction against large coinjoins. at least in practice, at least today. 08:15 < waxwing> one reason i thought wabisabi was interesting, it can make payments-in-large coinjoins at least a possibility. there is a lot of tricky details there, though. 08:16 < waxwing> a person is far more likely to engage in a large coinjoin in that scenario, where they'd be making a tx anyway. 08:16 < belcher> if we see makers as yield-generators (i.e. people who own capital and want to earn a revenue from it) then i dont see why they'd ever contribute to miner fees, because they only do transactions which earn them an income and are willing to wait a very long time for that to happen 08:16 < belcher> you're talking about makers-as-transactors as well, i.e. people who own bitcoin and want it send it somewhere 08:16 < waxwing> they're still earning an income if they pay X for a coinjoin and they would otherwise pay Y. 08:16 < waxwing> where Y >X 08:17 < waxwing> (the added point about makers-as-transactors is important, yeah, not for current vanilla joinmarket, but patient-sendpayment ideas or wabisabi ideas.) 08:18 < belcher> btw i read your article on wabisabi on your blog it was good 08:18 < waxwing> it's not going to really help people understand what they want to understand, unfortunately. 08:18 < belcher> hey i just realized, can wabisabi be used to add a liquidity market to wasabi wallet? 08:18 < waxwing> it's mostly just about the crypto construction. 08:18 < waxwing> i think it could, yes. 08:19 < waxwing> the devil is in the details, and it's exactly what i didn't cover there: how do you split amounts, what algo. 08:19 < waxwing> random seems to be .. pretty awful. 08:19 < waxwing> then there's knapsack ideas but it's a can of worms. denominations. etc. 08:20 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #joinmarket 08:20 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has joined #joinmarket 08:22 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has joined #joinmarket 09:17 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 09:32 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has joined #joinmarket 09:56 -!- davterra [~davterra@69.4.234.78] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:28 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:51 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has joined #joinmarket 14:38 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21 -!- Evanito [~Evanito@cpe-76-87-174-228.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 16:10 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23 -!- davterra [~davterra@69.4.234.64] has joined #joinmarket 17:25 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p5de4a381.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p5de4a381.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:35 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p5de4af24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:38 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 17:40 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p5de4af24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:40 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 18:07 -!- Stefan1McGlynn [~Stefan1Mc@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #joinmarket 19:11 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 19:53 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 19:57 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:03 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket 21:45 -!- tralfaz [~davterra@69.4.234.113] has joined #joinmarket 21:47 -!- davterra [~davterra@69.4.234.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #joinmarket 22:17 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket 22:34 -!- kristapsk_ [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket 22:34 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Sun Nov 15 00:00:17 2020