--- Log opened Tue Jul 13 00:00:06 2021
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04:27 < openoms> testing fidelity bonds it looks very straighforward. Question: 
04:27 < openoms> how about address reuse? Like does it count simply in an additive fashion if I'd deposit more coins on one particular timelocked address?
04:27 < openoms> As I understood from the docs in case of different fidelity bond addresses only the most valuable would be taken into account.
04:28 < openoms> surely the best practice is to deposit once as much as possible, but braking up deposits might feel a bit more secure and using the same coin as a source should not add privacy problems.
04:31 < openoms> could even be a recommendation for large deposits. What do you think?
04:33 < belcher> openoms fidelity bonds work with UTXOs, sending more coins to the same address wont add to the fidelity bond
04:34 < belcher> so yes sending as much as you're comfortable with in one go is the best strategy
04:36 < belcher> sending more than once to the same address still creates multiple UTXOs, thats my point, only one of those UTXOs will be announced
04:37 < openoms> @belcher thank you for clearing that up. So make the one shot the best one. Makes sense and encouraging address reuse won't be a good thing really and also controversial.
04:40 < belcher> the UTXO thing actually comes from how that information is needed to prove that a fidelity bond exists
04:40 < belcher> by comparing with the utxo set, a UTXO (txid and vout) can be shown to exist or not
04:41 < belcher> and also from there its value can be seen, as well as the scriptpubkey, and given the pubkey and locktime from that there can be proof that the UTXO really is owned by this IRC nick and also is locked until that given locktime
04:42 < belcher> if the IRC bots were actually sending each other addresses, then takers would have to have some kind of electrum server to go address -> fidelity bond
05:02 < openoms> thanks, next question:
05:02 < openoms> how many confirmations needed?
05:02 < openoms> I have 5 so far and still not showing: http://gopnmsknawlntb4qpyav3q5ejvvk6p74a7y5xotmph4v64wl3wicscad.onion/
05:02 < openoms> locking 0.1 BTC for the rest of thsi month only
05:20 < belcher> just 1 confirmation
05:20 < belcher> hopefully you're not doing this on mainnet
05:21 < belcher> well even if you are no great loss since its just ~2 weeks
05:21 < belcher> hmm
05:22 < belcher> i loaded your onion link, check the debug log of yield generator it should say something about whether its using the fidelity bond or not
05:22 < belcher> openoms ^
05:23 < openoms> no, signet of course :)
05:27 < openoms> restarted and it has:
05:27 < openoms> [INFO]  Announcing fidelity bond coin 6fce4174113a762d18a4550147d8c7d1e271832e0ff040aa18949406627bac6a:1
05:28 < belcher> hmm
05:28 < belcher> so the ob-watcher.py isnt reading it for some reason
05:28 < belcher> if there anything in ob-watcher's debug outputs?
05:29 < belcher> if not i could add some print statements to the PR
05:30 < openoms> now appeared as I resterted the obwatcher :tada:
05:30 < openoms> Native SW Relative Fee 	J56WuSeD64kZVNKs 	0 	0.002000% 	0.00000101 	0.06271171 	0.28255472 	0.0000000057872540
05:30 < belcher> the old supervisor's curse, where a bug disappears as soon as you get someone over to help with it :p
05:31 < openoms> not sure why since I have restarted both the YG and obwatcher even after the confirmations
05:31 < openoms> looking good anyway, will post  a small writeup
05:33 < openoms> very interesting: http://gopnmsknawlntb4qpyav3q5ejvvk6p74a7y5xotmph4v64wl3wicscad.onion/sybilresistance
05:40 < belcher> yeah i spent a while making that page
05:41 < belcher> since for fidelity bonds to work takers have to pay a little bit more in coinjoin fees, and they should really know what exactly they're paying for lol
05:42 < belcher> try setting up 2 or 3 more yield generators with fidelity bonds, the bottom table "Sybil attacks from enemies within" will then become more populated
05:42 < belcher> or use ygrunner
05:44 < openoms> fantastic work @belcher, looking forward to this getting traction on mainnet!
05:54 < belcher> ty
05:58 < openoms> tweeted out including a link to my workflow testing: https://twitter.com/openoms/status/1414931005983559688
05:58 < openoms> https://github.com/openoms/joininbox/issues/60
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07:05 < waxwing_> it's definitely worth doing this kind of thing if at the end you can make tables with titles like "Sybil attacks from enemies within" :)
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07:08 < nixbitcoindev[m]> Comparison tables with other CJ solutions?
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08:02 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/JoinMarketChannelsBridgedRelays] [OFTC/c​oinjoin] nixbitcoindev[m]: for comparison with other CJ solution see https://bitcoinkpis.com/privacy
09:47 < waxwing> On #906 i haven't really thought about it, but since two maintainers NACKed it and it's just about terminology, feel free to just close.
10:56 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] hello
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11:04 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] i think using JM once a month or so can do more harm than good. from what i observed in some txes, it happens that if for example N = coinjoin_partners = 7. after the cj has been done, these makers that run yg every day will most likely spend their cj utxo within 10-15 days. if all cj utxos except one are spent, and the one that is left is spent
11:04 <+JoinMarketRelay> in 2 months - there is high probability that is the takers cj utxo. has this been discussed before?
11:13 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] additionally. i'm running a yg. i was able to determine and follow takers tx through 6 mixdepths, starting from 3 where his tx was first seen following 4,0,1,2,3. every time yg chose a different utxo from different mixdepth. similarly happened: 3.15 entered at mixdepth 3, 3.12 mixdepth 4, 2.81 mixdepth 0, 2.35 mixdepth 1 etc.  2 digits are set
11:13 <+JoinMarketRelay> after dot for easier reading. in reality numbers are not rounded. i find it a bit weird to be able to follow a
11:25 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] hello
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11:26 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] got the msg?
11:35 < marcopolo1> who uses discord
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12:23 < belcher> nikolai yes using joinmarket to create one single coinjoin isnt very good, for the reason you said and others, so people who to improve the privacy of their coins should use tumbler mode which creates multiple coinjoins
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12:45 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/sqhqa^AWkyOkKkMLkS\VIat\rBdBdBz] the decrease decrease in cjamount sounds like "peeling the onion"
12:47 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/sqhqa^AWkyOkKkMLkS\VIat\rBdBdBz] ... /s/described/decrease  decrease
13:10 < waxwing> it's *generally* pretty easy to observe peeling chains via change outputs. it doesn't apply in the same way to coinjoin outputs.
13:11 < waxwing> some of the stuff in https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/the-445-btc-gridchain-case/ might be interesting for that.
13:12 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/sqhqa^AWkyOkKkMLkS\VIat\rBdBdBz] I already read that blog post earlier :)
13:23 < waxwing> right, guess i was talking mainly to nikolai, but either way :)
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15:52 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/E]`wwVg`sDKDYYDBsoxvtvvoBhuPWAI] You looking for bitcoin privacy norizaarfinb?
15:53 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/norizaarfinb] nope
15:53 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/norizaarfinb] just asking
15:54 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/E]`wwVg`sDKDYYDBsoxvtvvoBhuPWAI] What you asking for?
15:54 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/norizaarfinb] well, to meet new ppls and learn new thing
15:57 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/E]`wwVg`sDKDYYDBsoxvtvvoBhuPWAI] Here you might learn about coinjoins
15:57 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/norizaarfinb] ok
15:57 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/norizaarfinb] is there any other channel
15:58 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/E]`wwVg`sDKDYYDBsoxvtvvoBhuPWAI] #coinswap
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17:15 <+JoinMarketRelay> [hackint/nikolai] thanks for the heads up, some things are clearer now. i'll give gridcase a read
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--- Log closed Wed Jul 14 00:00:06 2021