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18:57 <@rusty> alpalp: hi!
18:57 < alpalp> rusty: thanks!
18:57 < alpalp> I'm trying to understand how the new op codes proposed will solve the timeout refund when malleability exists
18:58 < alpalp> I get, for the most part, the revocation structure
18:58 < alpalp> Referring to your 4 part post, the timeout is mentioned then disappears
18:58 <@rusty> alpalp: have you read https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/master/doc/deployable-lightning.pdf
18:59 <@rusty> That's the updated variant we're implementing.
18:59 < alpalp> ah, excellent
18:59 < alpalp> rusty: I think I saw the 0.1 version
18:59 <@rusty> alpalp: OK, hasn't changed a great deal then (though we've simplified to a single-sided anchor funding model)
19:00 < alpalp> Either I haven't figure it out, or funding TX is vulnerable to malleability, or requires SigHash NoInput?
19:00 < alpalp> Is that still true?
19:00 < alpalp> or fixed time channels
19:01 <@rusty> Yes.
19:01 < alpalp> rusty: somehow I thought the new opcodes had a way to get around it and I just wasn't clever enough to see it
19:02 <@rusty> alpalp: it's vulnerable to malleability, which is why BIP62 features in the paper.
19:03 < alpalp> I thought I read somewhere that there was some new scheme someone thought of that didn't require that.
19:03 <@rusty> alpalp: Unf. I'm now told BIP62 is dead.
19:03 < alpalp> been reading a lot, so hard to remember wher
19:04 <@rusty> alpalp: there's been some misinformation, unf.  Doesn't *require*, since you can use a fixed lifetime, but YUK...
19:04 < alpalp> rusty: yes, fixed lifetime, which either is super long and ends up tying a long time, or short, and the channel keeps needing to be opened and closed
19:05 <@rusty> alpalp: exactly.  That's why I counted on BIP62.
19:05 < alpalp> Just making sure I am not going crazy
19:08 < alpalp> rusty: whats the plan now?
19:08 <@rusty> alpalp: no, you're perfectly astute.  However, I'm awaiting Hong Kong and see how Segregated Witness works out (which solves this perfectly).  If we need something in the meantime, I'll propose a minimal softfork which means tx version 4(?) always has scriptSig of <single-byte-push> <sig> <33> <compressed-key>.  Where sig is strict DER, and low-S.
19:08 <@rusty> That means you can't fund a channel from anything other than P2PKH until we get SW.
19:09 <@rusty> (Unless you're prepared to risk miners malleating)
19:10 < alpalp> rusty: if I understand correctly, that forces the key to be 33 bytes?
19:10 <@rusty> alpalp: yep, compressed keys only.  It's 2015!
19:10 < alpalp> not for long
19:11 <@rusty> alpalp: indeed, compressed keys should have been the norm for about 3 years now.  And ideally, forever, but legacy....
19:12 < alpalp> rusty: whys that need a soft fork?
19:12 <@rusty> alpalp: you need to enforce that nobody will accept a tx which isn't of that form.
19:14 < alpalp> the requiring strict DER and low-S part?
19:14 <@rusty> alpalp: no, that's already there.  The requiring of a that scriptSig form for tx version 4.
19:15 < alpalp> tx version 4 only for P2PKH then?
19:15 <@rusty> alpalp: actually, not sure about low-S.  BIP65 is DER.
19:15 <@rusty> alpalp: yep...
19:16 <@rusty> alpalp: minimal bandaid, and easy to deploy, until we get SW.
19:16 < alpalp> and if you wanted P2SH, or even old form P2PKH, you still use version 3?
19:16 <@rusty> alpalp: yes.
19:16 < alpalp> perfect.  This has been highly educational.  Appreciate your time.
19:17 <@rusty> alpalp: the main complaint about BIP62 was what a PITA it has been to implement.
19:17 <@rusty> alpalp: NW, any time!
19:17 < alpalp> rusty: yeah, it seemed like a game of wackamole
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19:22 < alpalp> rusty: one last thing, the malleability concern only is with that initial funding transaction since its the only one mined and the rest you already have all the keys you need?
19:22 <@rusty> alpalp: exactly.
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