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00:43 < matsjj_> hey rusty, great news you had there :)
00:45 <@rusty2> matsjj_: I guess it depends how ugly it is :)
00:50 <@rusty2> matsjj_: don't suppose you're going to be in Hong Kong?
00:50 < matsjj_> nah, unfortunately not :(
00:51 < matsjj_> you will give a talk about the weak/strong block stuff, right?
00:53 <@rusty2> matsjj_: yep, Kalle and I are co-presenting.  But Joseph and Tadge will also be there, so no doubt there'll be plenty of lightning talk too :)
00:53 < matsjj_> Oh cool, I saw a lot from him recently, I also read a super nice article about IBLT from him
00:54 < matsjj_> hehe I really wonder what they will present
00:54 <@rusty2> Yeah, he's been using the HK conference to motivate himself to do more bitcoin work I think.
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00:54 <@rusty> matsjj_: https://scalingbitcoin.org/hongkong2015/#schedule
00:56 < matsjj_> oh interesting, necessary BIPs ... 
00:57 < matsjj_> I feel like the list is growing and growing as we are going :(
00:59 <@rusty> matsjj_: yes, but where would the fun be if this were too easy?
00:59 < matsjj_> will there be a dedicated workshop or discussion group about lightning as well?
01:09 < aj> matsjj_: see my post; it's complicated, but i think it works for managing htlc timeouts safely
01:09 < matsjj_> it really is :o
01:10 < aj> first talk at sbtc: "uncontroversial hard forks". hehehehe.
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01:51 < matsjj_> aj, after a few reads now my first serious attempt at understanding it... what is t and f?
01:54 < matsjj_> aj, or rather what is the notation (Carol, x-f, R, T-t)?  x-f = original amount - fee? T-t = original absolute timeout - hop-delta?
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01:56 < aj> matsjj_: yeah, exactly
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01:57 < matsjj_> aj, great! and k?
01:57 < aj> matsjj_: some number that i work out a value for at the bottom
01:58 < aj> matsjj_: basically long enough that you can publish a transaction and be sure it's not doublespent
01:59 < aj> matsjj_: (ie, k = minutes to actually get 1 confirmation + 10 * (n-1) minutes to get to n confirmations from there
02:05 < aj> matsjj_: and i guess "t" is "enough time to be confident you can spend a CSV'd transaction" -- so t = d + minutes to actually get 1 confirmation
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04:50 < matsjj> aj, okay through with it, nice analysis, sorry for the delay... WRT lowering the HTLC delay, I think it is possible, it will lead to forcing the receiver of the payment to reveal R earlier
04:55 < aj> matsjj: so you didn't find any holes? cool!
04:55 < matsjj> yea not really, as far as I can see you deal mostly with 'how much inter-hop-difference is healthy for the system?', right?
04:57 < matsjj> and I agree with your analysis of the 38 day timeout, was about to write that up as well while I received the email ;)
04:57 < matsjj> which is a problem I think
05:05 < aj> well, 20 hops is probably crazy long
05:05 < aj> and if you're not willing to risk that long a delay just don't accept the transaction
05:07 < aj> for microtransactions and while a lot of bitcoin is just sitting idle by hodlers anyway, it's probably fine?
05:15 < matsjj> yea you are creating a transaction with such a long delay in the first place ... still not ideal though
05:19 < aj> if fines can be made to work it'd be no worries -- hop 3 would just charge hop 4 for the delay, and pay some of that to hop 2 and everyone would be fairly compensated
05:20 < matsjj> oh right! they cannot be enforced strictly, but we can do it on a 'or I close the channel' basis
05:26 < aj> yeah, hopefully
05:29 < aj> oh, i mean node 2 would just charge node 3 for the delay, my bad
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05:30 < aj> but yeah, responsive and paying the fines == channel stays open, otherwise channel closes
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18:56 <@rusty> Why does chanserv do that??
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