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ZZZzzz…] 14:55 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:38 -!- Yoghur114_2 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:47 -!- Lauda [~Lauda@133.ip-92-222-169.eu] has joined #lightning-dev 15:47 < Lauda> "I mean you have to buy altcoins to pay with them. It's an investment. The same way you have to buy into payment channels and bind your bitcoins in the system without being able to freely move them. That's the first hurdle to overcome when it comes to convince people of using it. In fact i think it will be pretty much impossible to move a considerable amount of people to move to ln." 15:47 < Lauda> "Well, you can say that changetip is bitcoin too then. The bitcoins only are transferred offchain. And you don't see a difference why you would not trust changetip with your monthly earnings? Yes, ln is safer but still there is a group who demands you, no tries to force you to use their new system. They don't take out the artificial restriction that hinders the bitcoin network and present their own network as solution." 15:47 < Lauda> Anyone care to discuss? 15:50 < maaku> not sure what "it" and "them" is referring to 15:51 < Lauda> I think with 'them' they're referring to Core developers. 15:51 * rusty is confused. 15:51 < Lauda> 'it' as LN. 15:51 < Lauda> I'm confused too and trying to clear their missunderstandings. 15:52 < maaku> Lauda: I ask because that statement doesn't resemble LN at all. what do they mean altcoins? investments? LN payment channel coins are in fact very fluid and movable. 15:52 < rusty> Lauda: so,there's some accuracy here; moving coins into LN takes time. But interestingly, moving them out doesn't (unless the channel counterparty is down). 15:53 < maaku> So if the first quote is about LN, the person quoted is really confused. 15:53 < Lauda> maaku they were initially comparing LN to an altcoin, i.e. 'alternative solution to the problem'. 15:53 < Lauda> Rusty define 'takes time' please. 15:53 < rusty> Thought I note that the first version of the protocol doesn't support channel re-anchoring, which is required for making easy on-chain payments using channel funds. 15:53 < maaku> And for the 2nd, changetip is custodian. Payment channel networks don't involve giving your coins to some 3rd party. Plus they come with cryptographic proofs and auditability, etc. 15:53 < rusty> Lauda: you need to establish a channel. In my prototype, that's 3 confirms, though it could vary. 15:54 < Lauda> rusty so ~30minutes on average? That is okay. Theres no 'buying into payment channels' right? 15:55 < maaku> Lauda: that's a further confusion.. I'm not sure what problem exists for which 'lightning network' and 'altcoin' are two possible solutions to compare. 15:55 < rusty> Lauda: well, you need to put your money into a 2of2 anchor to use a channel. So I guess you could call tht "buying in" if you wanted? 15:56 < maaku> Lauda: I'll object. "buying in" doesn't make sense. It's not like you're buying an investment or anything. You're just moving your coins into something different. Kinda like putting them in 2-of-3 escrow or whatnot. 15:57 < Lauda> Yes maaku I think they meant it 'buying in' in that context which made no sense. Rusty that wording would be wrong IMO and could be misinterpreted as in this case. 15:57 < Lauda> Thanks. 15:58 < rusty> Lauda: anyway, TL;DR is that it's faster to get funds LN->on-chain than vice-versa, so makes sense to do that unless you know you're going to do on-chain txs (using your channel may make slightly larger txs, so they'll have proportionally higher fees) 15:59 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:06 < Lauda> Again, thanks @rusty. 16:08 < rusty> Lauda: you're welcome! This stuff is both tricky, and in flux, so it's hard to find answers for many things. 16:09 < Lauda> With the whole XT, BU, Classic nonsense people tend to manipulate information which makes it worse. 16:14 < Lauda> Someone just asked thi 16:14 < Lauda> s 16:14 < Lauda> LN seems political, too, because LN will need huge signatures? 16:15 < belcher> is that right? i thought they were p2sh signatures that use multisig and OP_CLTV and so on 16:16 < belcher> it is political for other reasons i believe, people are proposing it as an alternative to raising the block size 16:18 < Lauda> LN needs OP_CLTV and SegWit in order to function properly right? 16:23 < maaku> CSV preferably 16:23 < maaku> and it doesn't have to be segwit, it could be any one of another proposals 16:24 < maaku> but segwit has the most consensus 16:25 < maaku> Lauda: ideally LN should never need large signatures at all, but we need some further script improvements for that 16:25 < maaku> (which btw, segwit makes possible as a soft-fork) 16:27 < Lauda> Thanks. 16:34 < rusty> Yes, the redeemscripts are pretty chunky, but they only get sent on some kind of breakdown. 16:37 < rusty> eg. minimal anchor tx (single txin sending funds to the 2 of 2): 222 bytes. Minimal commit transaction (sending back to the two parties); 333 bytes. Add another 33 bytes for each outstanding HTLC. Redeeming an HTLC sending to pubkeyhash is 292 bytes. Normal mutual close is 332 bytes. 16:39 < maaku> rusty: hey that's right. kinda awesome. 16:39 < maaku> i forgot that those aren't in the actual microchannel lock script 16:40 < maaku> that's effectively the same as the improvement I was thinking of, merklized syntax trees 16:40 < rusty> maaku: which is why I'm not so concerned that the pubkey/privkey pair solution to R-value decorrelation is a fairly nasty 6-OP_CHECKSIG monster. 16:47 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 16:52 -!- drnet [~drnett@178.165.131.187.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:58 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:12 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 17:12 < Lauda> "The lightning network is no different from an altcoin. 17:12 < Lauda> With the "lightning network", bitcoins are transferred to another chain (lightning network altcoin chain), then transactions are performed on that chain and then at some point, transferred back into bitcoins for settlement. It shouldn't be called the "The Bitcoin Lightning Network", it should be called "Lightening Coin"." 17:12 < Lauda> uh, people.. 17:13 < belcher> where did you find that? lightning does not have a blockchain 17:13 < Lauda> someone just made a post on BTCT. 17:13 < belcher> lightning transactions are bitcoin transactions 17:13 < gijensen> That sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of LN and altcoins 17:14 < belcher> literally, in the sense that if you send them to a miner they would mine them into a block 17:23 -!- stevenroose_ [~stevenroo@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has joined #lightning-dev 17:26 < Lauda> Yeah it did not make sense to me at all. 17:26 < Lauda> belcher they would? 17:26 < belcher> of course 17:27 < belcher> in practice a "lightning transaction" would actually just be the new signature rather than the entire transaction, since the rest of it stays mostly the same 17:27 < belcher> so its more efficent to send less bytes 17:27 < Lauda> Very interesting! I'm out for now though. 17:27 < belcher> have you read the payment channels page on the bitcoin wiki? 17:27 < belcher> i think its under Smart Contracts 17:28 < Lauda> I don't think so. 17:36 -!- drnet [~drnett@178.165.131.187.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@x4db420a3.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@x4db45966.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev 18:00 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 21:31 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 21:33 < sugarpuff> some tech replies needed here: 21:33 < sugarpuff> - https://chrispacia.wordpress.com/2015/12/23/lightning-network-skepticism/ 21:33 < sugarpuff> - http://codesuppository.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-lightning-network-reality-check.html 21:36 < gijensen> That second one is a /massive/ FUD post, wow 21:39 < sugarpuff> gijensen: TLDR of the fud part? (see also comments, joseph replied but unanswered questions remain) 21:41 < gijensen> Sorry I don't have the time to really read it. I just scrolled through and got the tone. He refers to the blocksize limit debate as basically people for or against scaling (so just a total bias), and he makes the presentation sound misleading (that 133mb blocks would solve everything), but its meerly to show what would be possible with Bitcoin today IIRC 21:42 < gijensen> Its not meant to say "this solves all problems" 21:42 < gijensen> So that whole part of his argument is a strawman 21:43 < gijensen> (not meaning to say Bitcoin could survive with 133MB blocks today) 21:45 < gijensen> Maybe someone more informed will actually read and reply :). It just reads like many other FUD posts to me though (rehashed arguments) 21:45 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:47 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48 < sugarpuff> gijensen: gotcha 21:53 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:00 < rusty> Sigh, yes, Lightning doesn't yet exist. This isn't helpful. And I refuse to make comments on the blocksize debate, as that's not helpful either... 22:00 < rusty> aj: around? 22:00 < aj> rusty: yo 22:00 < rusty> aj: hey, you get to name the 0.2 release, shipping RSN. Details in your inbox... 22:01 < aj> oh god, i can't deal with the pressure 22:01 < rusty> aj: yep, all the good names are taken already. 22:02 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:02 -!- maaku is now known as Guest26455 22:06 -!- Guest26455 is now known as maaku 22:28 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qssqvpcuzfkvokef] has joined #lightning-dev 22:43 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:44 -!- maaku is now known as Guest89306 22:45 -!- Guest89306 is now known as maaku 22:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:51 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:59 -!- ftlio [~ftlio@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/ftlio] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14 -!- jtimon [~quassel@126.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:16 < sugarpuff> gijensen / aj / roasbeef: feel free to fact check my reply to Chris: https://chrispacia.wordpress.com/2015/12/23/lightning-network-skepticism/comment-page-1/#comment-1413 23:17 < sugarpuff> or chime in here: https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/689706252146880512 23:30 < maaku> i really wish joseph would stop talking about giant hubs... you really don't need them 23:58 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]