--- Day changed Wed Jan 20 2016
00:33 -!- ennui [~user@ip-95-223-3-105.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lightning-dev
00:35 -!- jouke [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Changing host]
00:35 -!- jouke [~jouke@unaffiliated/komkommer] has joined #lightning-dev
00:37 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lightning-dev
00:38 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]
00:41 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lightning-dev
00:41 -!- maaku is now known as Guest99685
00:41 -!- Guest99685 is now known as maaku
00:59 -!- stevenroose_ [~stevenroo@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has joined #lightning-dev
01:13 -!- stevenroose_ [~stevenroo@2a02:2c40:400:b000::1:9fa0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
01:29 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
02:27 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@x4db45966.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev
04:23 -!- ennui [~user@ip-95-223-3-105.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has left #lightning-dev ["ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)"]
05:50 -!- pepesza [~pepesza@185.83.218.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
05:51 -!- crescendo [~mozart@unaffiliated/crescendo] has joined #lightning-dev
05:51 -!- roasbeef_ [~root@104.131.26.124] has joined #lightning-dev
05:53 -!- mr_burdell_ [~mr_burdel@bounce.cryptolabs.net] has joined #lightning-dev
05:55 -!- LaudaM [~Lauda@2001:41d0:52:a00::d36] has joined #lightning-dev
05:55 -!- stevenroose|BNC [stevenroos@bnc1.sollidi.us] has joined #lightning-dev
05:55 -!- amiller_ [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #lightning-dev
05:56 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: AaronvanW_, stevenroose, [b__b], amiller, mr_burdell, Lauda, roasbeef, crescend1, Yoghur114
05:56 -!- stevenroose|BNC is now known as stevenroose
05:56 -!- mr_burdell_ is now known as mr_burdell
05:56 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Yoghur114
05:56 -!- mr_burdell is now known as Guest75253
06:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: [b__b]
06:07 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x4db45966.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev
06:07 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@x4db45966.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host]
06:07 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
06:19 < instagibbs> maaku, "need" vs "what will happen" are two different things. Large economic actors will have large amounts of coin being transacted through the network. So what?
06:58 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lightning-dev
07:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:17 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev
07:21 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
07:33 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:59 -!- LaudaM is now known as Lauda
08:18 -!- bityogi [~textual@208.104.143.200] has joined #lightning-dev
08:24 < maaku> instagibbs: but a hub is something different than a whale - a node which purposefully connects to as many nodes as possible.
08:25 < maaku> Its not clear that is a viable business model given the costs
08:25 < instagibbs> If that's the definition, indeed.
08:25 < instagibbs> expecting a scale-free graph is quite conservative imo
08:28 < maaku> I wouldn't expect a homogeneous graph, bit talking matter of factly about hubs as if they are inevitable sends the wrong message
08:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lightning-dev
08:37 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
08:57 -!- pepesza [~pepesza@185.83.218.228] has joined #lightning-dev
09:12 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
09:37 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect
10:16 -!- warren_ [~warren@fedora/wombat/warren] has joined #lightning-dev
10:20 -!- jl2012_ [uid133844@unaffiliated/jl2012] has joined #lightning-dev
10:22 -!- stevenroose|BNC [stevenroos@bnc1.sollidi.us] has joined #lightning-dev
10:22 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: stevenroose, jl2012, warren
10:22 -!- jl2012_ is now known as jl2012
10:22 -!- stevenroose|BNC is now known as stevenroose
10:59 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@unaffiliated/jl2012] has quit [Changing host]
10:59 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khnquzktwnpmejha] has joined #lightning-dev
11:14 -!- warren_ is now known as warren
11:25 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
11:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
11:32 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
11:53 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev
12:10 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:21 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:36 < Lauda> http://prntscr.com/9so6di 
12:37 < Lauda> Any thoughts on this?
12:54 < aj> Lauda: "both parties sign a transaction to transfer the coins out of that [bitcoin] address and into a multisig dogecoin address" makes no sense. (if dogecoin were a pegged sidechain maybe it would)
12:54 < Lauda> "The "Bitcoin Lightspeed SMTP Network". Unlimited transactions, no fees, transactions occur immediately, the bitcoins are "locked" and both parties must agree to get any "locked" bitcoins so the transactions via email are actual bitcoin transactions.
12:54 < Lauda> Would you agree? The emails they send each other saying what bitcoins transactions they are making are, in fact, actual bitcoin transactions even though they don't appear in the bitcoin blockchain because they refer to bitcoins in the blockchain? If instead of using email, they used an altcoin like doge, would you say the doge transactions were also bitcoin transactions because the doge represented bitcoin in the bitcoin blockchain?"
12:55 < Lauda> aj what about this?
12:57 < Lauda> aj it seems that the post has changed 
12:57 < Lauda> "the two parties transact back and forth, via email, any amounts they want to transfer between each other"
12:57 < aj> Lauda: you can send unconfirmed transactions over email, sure. i don't think you can meaningfully/usefully send them over the dogecoin blockchain; if you did, it would just be putting data on the dogecoin blockchain not making use of its coins/crypto per se
13:00 < Lauda> thanks aj.
13:37 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
13:39 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
13:39 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
13:41 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
13:46 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
13:48 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
13:55 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
13:58 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
14:04 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
14:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lightning-dev
14:18 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit]
14:41 -!- bityogi [~textual@208.104.143.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:04 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-134-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:05 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-134-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev
15:38 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off
15:44 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev
15:56 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
16:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
16:25 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:32 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
16:33 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
16:35 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:46 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
16:55 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lightning-dev
16:55 -!- maaku is now known as Guest91472
16:56 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
17:16 -!- rusty2 is now known as rusty
17:19 < rusty> Hmm, OK, anyone good with math or want to write a quick simulator?
17:20 < rusty> When waiting for anchor tx, what's a good "less than 1 in a million" timeout value?   I know Probability(no block in time N) = e^(-N/600).  But solving P(< X blocks in time N) <= 1/1000000 is beyond me.  I am going with 2 hours  + 20 minutes per block, but I suspect that's overkill. 			 		
17:39 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@f052105231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lightning-dev
17:42 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:43 < gwillen> rusty: repeating this here so the channel can correct me: I think this is the calculation you want -- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=e%5E%28-x%29+*+sum+x%5Ei+%2F+fact%28i%29%2C+i%3D0+to+6+%3C+1%2F1000000
17:44 < gwillen> that solves for P(<= 6 blocks in N block intervals) <= 1/1,000,000
17:44 < gwillen> so the solution of 27.3 means that waiting 27.3 block intervals should guarantee you 7 blocks (with failure chance <=1/1,000,000)
17:45 < gwillen> this is using the CDF given in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution
17:48 -!- jorash [~jorash@unaffiliated/jorash] has joined #lightning-dev
17:48 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
17:48 -!- epscy [~epscy@176.126.241.239] has joined #lightning-dev
17:48 < epscy> "If either party incorrectly broadcasts an old transaction state, the counterparty may take
17:48 < epscy> all the funds in the channel as a penalty. As a result, both parties have a direct economic
17:49 < epscy> incentive to only broadcast the most recent transaction state."
17:49 < epscy> how does that work?
17:49 < epscy> it sounds sort of gameable
18:08 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qssqvpcuzfkvokef] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:12 -!- Guest91472 is now known as maaku
18:21 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@f052105231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:46 < rusty> gwillen: thanks!
18:48 < rusty> epscy: well, when you negotate a new channel transaction (eg. used to be "$1 to you, $2 to me", now "$1.01 to you, $1.99 to me"), after we exchange signatures, I give you a secret which lets you steal outputs from that old "$1 to you, $2 to me" tx.
18:49 < rusty> epscy: Now, I only ever sign transactions when I'm about to send them out, so there's never such a signed tx in existence.
18:50 < rusty> epscy: the only case I can possibly screw up is if I forget that I agreed to the update (software didn't save state before crash, for example).
19:47 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.232.116.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:48 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev
19:59 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.200.154.39] has joined #lightning-dev
20:04 < epscy> rusty: thanks, still not quite sure I understand, need to think about it a bit more
20:05 < rusty> epscy: every in-channel transaction output script looks like "I can spend it, OR you can spend it with the <secret>".  After I give you <secret> I'd better not publish it!
20:08 -!- drnet [~drnett@77.119.130.14.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:13 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
20:19 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
20:21 -!- ftlio [~ftlio@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/ftlio] has joined #lightning-dev
20:23 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.200.154.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:59 < ftlio> is there anything on what goes into the decision of opening a channel with someone?  Seems like a hard problem to solve.
21:01 < ftlio> well i guess everyone is risking the same fee
21:12 < rusty> ftlio: currently in my prototype the initiator of the connection funds the channel.  Then fees get split (but can never go backwards).
21:12 < rusty> ftlio:  So if I open a 1M bit channel with a 1000 bit tx fee, it starts as "99990000 to me, 0 to you, 1000 in fees".
21:13 < ftlio> oh nice
21:14 < rusty> ftlio: if I send you 1000 bits, it becomes "9998500 to me, 500 to you, 1000 in fees".
21:14 < rusty> ftlio: if I send you < 500 bits, you can't spend any of it :)
21:16 < aj> rusty: if you send <500 bits, neither of you can close the channel...
21:16 < rusty> aj: ?
21:17 < aj> rusty: commitment tx with a 500 bit output will hit the dust limit and not get relayed/mined?
21:17 < rusty> aj: oh yeah, that :)
21:17 < rusty> aj: there's a bug about that.
21:17 < aj> rusty: details, i know ;)
21:17 < ftlio> haha
21:18 < ftlio> very cool, thanks rusty
21:28 -!- jorash [~jorash@unaffiliated/jorash] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
21:38 < aj> rusty: ugh, i don't feel smarter for having read that github issue :(
21:40 < rusty> aj: maybe, but I did feel impressed at the friendly responses from Nicholas and ktorm though.
21:45 < aj> rusty: yeah, maybe having already read reddit today i've already hit my tolerance limit
21:49 < rusty> aj: well, my reddit-free-January has been pretty awesome.  Might have to make that my regular birthday present.
21:50 < aj> rusty: maybe you should consider measuring your birthday by lunar cycle rather than solar, too?
21:54 < rusty> aj: thought had crossed my mind, yes....
21:54 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #lightning-dev []
22:59 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eqquwlqwrmevfigd] has joined #lightning-dev
23:12 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
23:14 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
23:27 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .]
23:30 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.232.116.217] has joined #lightning-dev
23:31 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #lightning-dev
23:37 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]