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07:37 < Tasoshi> Hey, is there a general lightning chat?
07:37 < AmikoPay_CJP> You mean, without -dev?
07:38 < Tasoshi> I was wondering, what is to stop a lightning node or hub to run a modified version that could do bad stuff.
07:38 < Tasoshi> Not sure if the question makes sense...
07:38 < AmikoPay_CJP> The question makes perfect sense.
07:39 < Tasoshi> thanks
07:39 < AmikoPay_CJP> The quick answer is: nobody stops you from running a node with modified software, but the protocol is designed such that you can do very little harm that way.
07:40 < Tasoshi> by very little do we mean none?
07:41 < AmikoPay_CJP> You can lock up funds for a while and force people to do on-blockchain transactions, but you can not steal any bitcoins.
07:41 < Tasoshi> Obviously you can't confiscate the coins, but, if you were smart could you in effect, through a modified node, practically create "bitcoins" out of thin air
07:42 < Tasoshi> since, presumably, no one is validating
07:43 < Tasoshi> or is that technically impossible, or do we not know?
07:45 < Tasoshi> For example, the H and the R, where does that come from, is it the hub? So what is to stop the hub from creating a fake H and a fake R and print money
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07:53 < AmikoPay_CJP> In Lightning, everybody IS validating. Bitcoins are not created out of thin air: instead, they are locked inside microtransaction channels, and possession is shifted between different nodes when transactions are performed.
07:54 < Tasoshi> what's to stop a hub from creating a fake H or a fake R though?
07:55 < stonecoldpat> if a hub changes the hash after way through the route, then the receiver can't redeem the coins, so he also won't be able to redeem it 
07:56 < stonecoldpat> half way through**, So if it is Alice -> Bob -> Caroline -> David, if Bob changes H to H', then Caroline will get H' and not know the pre-image. Without the pre-image, Caroline cant get her bitcoins 
07:56 < Tasoshi> I had bitcoin in quotes because I do not mean actual bitcoins, what I mean is lightning transactions. Although bitcoins are locked, and this is just my understanding so I'd be greatful for corrections, the locked bitcoins in a way become an IOU, so until settlement we have transactions between IOUs. What is to verify that an IOU is, lets say, 1 bitcoin rather than 10 and what's to stop fully fake IOUs from being created.
07:57 < stonecoldpat> They are real bitcoins being used
07:57 < stonecoldpat> The way to think about a payment channel is that: Alice and Bob have both deposited 0.5 bitcoins into a Funding Transaction. So this transaction has 1 bitcoin. For every future payment - they simply agree how to re-distribute that 1 Bitcoin. 
07:57 < Tasoshi> let's take it in steps so that I can understand
07:57 < Tasoshi> what creates the H and the R?
07:57 < stonecoldpat> You can imagine that bitcoin being locked in a box, and you simply agree how to split it for every payment 
07:58 < AmikoPay_CJP> In a Lightning channel, bitcoins are never IOUs, not even when they are 'in transit'. They are locked in a special smart contract called a HTLC, which ensures they are always sent to the correct party in the end.
07:58 < Tasoshi> is it the bitcoin protocol that creates the H and the R or is it hubs?
07:59 < jl2012> Tasoshi, do you know how Bitcoin script works?
07:59 < Tasoshi> vaguely
07:59 < jl2012> Tasohi, so it's very difficult to explain....LN is all based on bitcoin scripts
08:01 < Tasoshi> there are two aspects though, from my understanding, there is what bitcoin directly affects, as in the locked bitcoins the time expiry etc, and then there are transactions that in a way have nothing to do with bitcoin until settlement
08:02 < stonecoldpat> Taososhi, they are always valid bitcoin transactions, both parties just agree not to broadcast them. 
08:03 < AmikoPay_CJP> It's like legal contracts. 99% of them are settled peacefully, and never result in a legal fight. If every legal contract would result in a court case, courts would be completely overloaded.
08:03 < Tasoshi> a valid bitcoin transaction does not involve any "lending"
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08:04 < Tasoshi> From my understanding, in practice, if I want to pay you 1btc, I have my btc locked, then the hub in effect "lends" 1btc which it receives when settlement
08:05 < stonecoldpat> Do you mean, if Alice wants to pay Caroline, then she must use Bob to do the payment? 
08:06 < AmikoPay_CJP> No, there is no "lending" in a Lightning channel. It's in essence a 'smart contract' made of some regular Bitcoin transactions. Every version of the contract assigns a certain part to one party and a certain part to another party.
08:07 < Tasoshi> that's conceptually, how does it work in actual practice
08:07 < Tasoshi> for me to pay you I can open a direct payment channel, but if I do that with everyone... so we use a hub and the role of the hub is to lend me and borrow from you until settlement no
08:09 < Tasoshi> but if the hub can just create whatever rule it wants...
08:09 < Tasoshi> it could double spend the money it lent/borrowed
08:09 < Tasoshi> especially from 99% of non technical users
08:09 < AmikoPay_CJP> There is no "one big hub" either. It's lots of small nodes connected to each other, and payments can form a route across several hops. It's very de-centralized, in the same way as the internet.
08:10 < Tasoshi> how would the payment go from route to route in practice?
08:12 < AmikoPay_CJP> Very similar to the internet. Nodes have a rough idea of a 'map' of the network, so they know in what direction a payment must be forwarded to send it to its final destination.
08:13 < Tasoshi> wouldn't that just increase fees by x times number of routes?
08:14 < Tasoshi> Unless I am not understanding, which is likely, but for the transaction to be passed on you require to have the number of bitcoins that are to be passed on?
08:15 < Tasoshi> so if you want to pay 1btc to someone through me then I need to have 1btc to forward it on
08:15 < Tasoshi> then once settlement you pay me I pay whoever
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20:54 < JackH> Does anyone have an answer to this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1417911.0
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22:38 < rusty> JackH: it's kind of true, that we don't use new scripting at the higher levels.  OTOH, since everything comes down to bitcoin txs, it's possible that new opcodes could enable new kinds of LN trades.
23:05 < JackH> Ok that clears up alot. But also a shame. Script is really cool
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23:06 < JackH> Would it make sense to do lightning on top of lightning and then operate with a script language like Script on main lightning? Or are we beyond low level on layer-2 completely?
23:44 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell force-pushed multi-htlc from 826912b to 5e7b3d0: https://git.io/vVsKA
23:44 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/multi-htlc 48a4ec8 Rusty Russell: daemon/test/test.sh: remove -x flag, add --verbose option....
23:44 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/multi-htlc ab1176d Rusty Russell: jsonrpc: rename "id" to "peerid" everywhere....
23:44 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/multi-htlc c1d1b36 Rusty Russell: daemon: add memcheck() in various places where we expect things to be initialized....
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23:48 < rusty> JackH: We're using script to make/enforce HTLCs (time-locked contracts).  Almost any script can work as long as it has the property that A consuming my output gives me something I can use to consume B's output.
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23:49 < JackH> Ah so its fully extendable
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