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08:54 < cryptocronus> what’s the difference between ElementsProject/lightning and LightningNetwork/lnd projects?  lightning project is low level protocol  implementation in c and lnd is the actual node written in go?
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11:15 < roasbeef> cryptocronus: they're both ln node software, just written by diff teams concurrently  
11:16 < cryptocronus> ah ok, that was my other guess. who’s further along :)
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11:23 < roasbeef> both nodes are at various degrees of completion
11:24 < roasbeef> our wire protocol + htlc state machine are still in flux atm, joseph should be finalizing them over the next few days
11:25 < roasbeef> i haven't touched lnd too recently, as I've been busy adding segwit support to btcd and the related btcsuite packages
11:25 < roasbeef> but that stuff is mostly done at this point, so we'll have some major milestones rolling out soon 
11:27 < cryptocronus> got it, makes sense
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11:56 < roasbeef> so Tadge gave a talk at the sf-dev meetup on monday: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1G4xchDGcO37DJ2lPC_XYyZIUkJc2khnLrCaZXgvDN0U/edit#slide=id.g85f425098_0_183
11:56 < roasbeef> initially goes over single-funded channels and their implications 
11:57 < roasbeef> but also, a way to do probabilistic microypayments within channels 
11:57 < roasbeef> so, Alice sends Bob 1 satoshi with a 50% chance of Bob being able to add the payment to his next state 
11:58 < roasbeef> he calls it PILPPs, or "Pre-Image Length Probablisitc Payments" 
12:01 < cryptocronus> thanks for sharing, very interesting
12:01 < roasbeef> in the 50% example, Bob needs to guess whether alice's pre-image has a length of 20 or 21 bytes. he commits to a decision within the channel, rescinding his stake in the opposite scenario 
12:02 < cryptocronus> he’s proposing as a way to send subsatoshi payments? only really works of total amount will eventually be over 1 satoshi though, right?
12:02 < roasbeef> well you can do sub-satoshi between end points, rounding up or down once you settle 
12:02 < roasbeef> but this allows you to send x satoshi in expectation 
12:03 < roasbeef> so 1 satoshi with a 5% chance or 0.05 satoshi
12:03 < roasbeef> it's probabilistic, bob needs to guess the pre-image length 
12:03 < roasbeef> you can add more possible lengths to give bob a better chance 
12:06 < cryptocronus> got it, is this the only info out there about this idea? 
12:07 < roasbeef> yeah, this is the first time he's spoken of it publicly 
12:08 < roasbeef> well, there have been other schemes for PP proposed in the past 
12:09 < roasbeef> this scheme is designed to operate within channels 
12:10 < roasbeef> one could switch over their regular channel to this probabilitic state at any time (both endpoints need to agree ofc) 
12:13 < cryptocronus> what’s a potential use case for probabilstic payment channels?
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12:25 < cryptocronus> also, is there a test suite I can run against the lnd project?
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12:30 < roasbeef> sub-satoshi payments, games where alice should _maybe_ pay bob, etc 
12:31 < roasbeef> cryptocronus: yeah there are tests in the various sub-packages, you'll need my segwit branches for btcutil, btcd, and btcwallet to build it all atm though 
12:31 < cryptocronus> yeah I noticed it was failing earlier
12:31 < roasbeef> the codebase is in an intermdiate state atm, where everything is moving over to use segwitty stuff 
12:31 < cryptocronus> yeah think that’s mentioned in the readme
12:31 < cryptocronus> or somewhere at least
12:32 < roasbeef> so it builds for us locally, but you'll need to do a bit of git leg work to get it to build :p 
12:32 < roasbeef> it'll be resolved soon though 
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12:33 < cryptocronus> got it
--- Log closed Wed Apr 13 12:48:18 2016
--- Log opened Wed Apr 13 12:49:14 2016
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