--- Day changed Tue Oct 11 2016 00:17 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 00:18 < rusty> I woke at 4:30am and I remembered the derivation algorithm for shachain. Then I simplified the logic further. I avoided rewriting the code, however,and went back to sleep. Will present this morning (TL;DR: It's much simpler than my dumb code). 00:20 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:28 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-189-207.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:35 -!- maaku_ is now known as maaku 00:37 -!- hozer [~hozer@user-38q4cqj.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:38 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.59] has joined #lightning-dev 00:56 -!- tylersmith [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57 -!- tylersmith [~tcrypt@2601:647:4600:21a0:a0d8:a1bc:f003:623f] has joined #lightning-dev 00:59 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@212.91.77.38] has joined #lightning-dev 00:59 -!- hozer [~hozer@user-38q4cqj.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.59] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 01:07 -!- 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https://fedcsis.org/proceedings/2010/pliks/79.pdf 06:14 < roasbeef> 36QiH3gA9mGqH7BLBa5L2yEXqAQxnNm1Rhz7CSwBvHRrvgsox7GxURCqHR5nYn3WEFDtW2BdTnbtoQGn9eGY8eJKDwU8R 06:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:32 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:33 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has joined #lightning-dev 06:52 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 07:01 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has joined #lightning-dev 07:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.99] has joined #lightning-dev 07:19 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.99] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:25 -!- wraithm [~textual@205.197.160.100] has joined #lightning-dev 07:27 -!- jtimon [~quassel@212.91.77.38] has joined #lightning-dev 07:36 -!- musdom 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ZZZzzz…] 15:53 -!- LNquery [5acc1384@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.204.19.132] has joined #lightning-dev 15:55 < LNquery> so i just watched the "first live demo" video of a test net transaction for a ascii cat. now i have a couple questions. 1. when asking lightning for a new address prior to setting up the channel is that a duel signing multisig between the hub and user? or an address the hub only has the privkeys to 15:56 < LNquery> secondly, why use millisats, which breaks the 21m bitcoin cap by adding a few more decimals onto of the 2100000000000000 cap programmed into bitcoin by satoshy himself 16:07 < maaku> LNquery: why not have greater subdivision, since it is possible to do? 16:09 < LNquery> it breaks bitcoins rarity if later on you decide to add the same subdevision to bitcoin.. also the "rounding" up/down can be abused in a hubs favour. im guessing devs no longer care about rules and only care about syphoning funds from users 16:11 < maaku> is gold any less rare if you break a gold bar in two? 16:12 < maaku> in any case, if you want a serious reply I suggest not asking loaded questions 16:12 < maaku> note the topic 16:13 < LNquery> lol epic fail.. bitcoin is not measured as 21m coins down.. but as 2100000000000000sats up.. adding 3 more decimals calculates as 2100000000000000000 units which is basically 21BILLION bitcoins 16:14 < maaku> ok then 16:14 < LNquery> what about a serious answer to first question. about multisig or wholely owned addresses managed by the hub 16:14 < gwillen> LNquery: 'newaddr' is an operating on your local lightning node, no hubs are involved at that point 16:15 < gwillen> it gives an address that is controlled by your local lightning node, running on your own machine 16:15 < gwillen> an operation* 16:16 < gwillen> other nodes get involved at the 'connect' step, then the result is that some coins are sent to a multisig between the other node and your node 16:16 < LNquery> hope you sort out the risks of replay/double spending possible hacks if the user has sole control of funds 16:16 < LNquery> i thought last years concept was to use multisigs 16:17 < gwillen> see my comment above -- 'newaddr' doesn't open any lightning channels, it's just a preparatory step. The channel opens when you run 'connect' which does use a multisig. 16:17 < gwillen> The whole user interface is still a bit cumbersome, it's early days. :-) 16:19 < LNquery> i understood it was a preparity step. i included that point the first time i mentioned the questions "1. when asking lightning for a new address prior to setting up the channel is that a duel signing multisig between the hub and user? or an address the hub only has the privkeys to" 16:21 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 16:21 < LNquery> and is this multisig(at chennel setup) offchain? 16:22 < gwillen> that multisig is onchain, it's called the "anchor transaction" -- opening a channel requires waiting for confirmations 16:22 < gwillen> then sending coins inside that channel is offchain 16:23 < gwillen> so for lightning to be useful in the real world, you have to keep channels open, so that you have them when you want to spend coins with them. 16:23 < gwillen> opening a channel just to send one payment like this is only good for a demo. 16:24 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24 < LNquery> so to use LN. you have to fund an address (preparitory(owned by user) and then send funds again to put into multisig, before its then offchain.. so 2 ONCHAIN transactions before anything dont offchain. then to settle another transaction.. hmm ok great for daily faucets and gamblers.. but required 3 transactions to just buy the ascii cat 16:25 < gwillen> I _think_ the first onchain transaction will also not be necessary 'in the real world' -- if your bitcoin wallet has lightning built in, then you don't have to send any coins to a separate 'lightning wallet' like we do in the demo 16:25 < gwillen> but yes, you need a channel open, which is one onchain transaction, before you can use it to send coins 16:26 < gwillen> but once you have one channel, you can route payments to multiple different other users through it -- that's why lightning is a network 16:26 < gwillen> so you only need to open it once 16:38 < LNquery> 3 things that need sorting.. dont use subdivisions as it will cause rounding debates if bitcoin cap not screwed.. or will cause rarity debate if blockstream plans to screw bitcoins cap 16:39 < LNquery> also the fee has to be way way below $0.01 value.. im mean like under 10th of a cent at max. otherwise its just being greedy and a barrier to entry 16:40 < gwillen> the fees will be super low, surely below $0.01, this is intended to work for real micropayments :-) 16:40 < LNquery> thirdly. need to sort out so lightning monitors the address it sets up preparitory and achnor so user doesnt need to copy/paste 16:40 < gwillen> oh yeah that UI stuff is getting worked on, this is a super early demo 16:40 < gwillen> the latest version has a script that handles a bunch of that for you 16:40 < gwillen> I'm not sure if that's out yet 16:40 < gwillen> as for the subdivisions.... lightning could just as easily use 'millicents' as a denomination 16:41 < gwillen> but you wouldn't imagine that this would suddenly cause there to be more dollars 16:41 < gwillen> so I'm not sure how you imagine that lightning using 'millisatoshi' could cause there to be more bitcoins, it's just not possible 16:41 < gwillen> rounding is another question, I'm not sure how that's handled 16:42 < LNquery> well it needs to be handled. because you cant have 123 millisats. as that rounds to 0 bitcoin sats 16:43 < gwillen> well, I think as long as you keep the same channel open, a channel balance can be less than a satoshi -- it's only when the channel closes that it's a problem 16:43 < gwillen> also one satoshi right now is 0.0006 pennies, so most people won't care about that rounding ... I mean your taxes are usually rounded to the nearest dollar 16:44 < gwillen> it's just a question of future-proofing for when satoshis are more valuable than they are now 16:44 < LNquery> exactly 16:44 < gwillen> so, we have a few versions to figure that out :-) 16:46 < LNquery> just to double check. the "anchor" is a 2of2 multisig between hub and user. or is it a 2 of 3 where third 'mediator' is some lightning employee or some arbritrator? 16:50 -!- tylersmith is now known as tcrypt[away] 16:50 -!- tcrypt[away] [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ＿ﾉ乙(､ﾝ､)_] 16:56 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 17:02 < LNquery> still wondering the purpose of needing the preparitory tx and also a anchor tx.. why not just fund an anchor tx 17:04 < LNquery> its what i dislike about alot of devs, they are not formally trained to know about documentation, commenting, pseudocode and brainstorming ideas. its 98% code and then 2% description months later 17:20 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev 17:22 -!- lightningbot [~supybot@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:febb:bbc1] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 17:22 -!- lightningbot [~supybot@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:febb:bbc1] has joined #lightning-dev 17:23 -!- CodeShark [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awirqwsqiwoizdzo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23 -!- CodeShark [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqfxcnbniycjqxvg] has joined #lightning-dev 17:27 < LNquery> seeing as millisat is just an alt. (if your going to stick with sbdivisions) you might aswell rename them to sparks. (of lightning) and call the anchor transaction grounding just to stay within the theme of lightning. and yes i have deemed LN as an altcoin due to it not being consistant to bitcoin 17:44 -!- zmanian___ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zbpxzrnelwjvvpry] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45 -!- zmanian___ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-asuogvrszimwzshj] has joined #lightning-dev 17:57 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eclqnktgckyscgnc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:23 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #lightning-dev 20:25 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-szuihfnxkvllylmi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pfbxshzuuxpwumnt] has joined #lightning-dev 20:34 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 21:08 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ＿ﾉ乙(､ﾝ､)_] 21:20 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev 23:14 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 23:46 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qberivicvoqsthra] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]