--- Day changed Wed Oct 19 2016 00:09 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:14 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28 < Eliel> I got asked a question about LN that I couldn't answer. Currently, with a Bitcoin transaction, if someone comes to me claiming they didn't receive my transfer, I can just point them at a blockexplorer with the txid and they can verify that I did indeed send something. How would I similarly show that I made an LN transfer? 00:35 -!- rabidus_ [~lauri.j@uhiainen.com] has joined #lightning-dev 00:36 < aj> Eliel: if you send money on lightning you get a receipt back in the form of the R preimage 00:37 < Eliel> you can use that to prove that the transaction was made somehow? 00:38 < aj> just having that value proves the transaction was made 00:39 < gmaxwell> When lightning wallet software starts to mature presumably it'll have an exportable electronic 'reciept'. 00:39 < aj> if i'm selling you cat pictures over lightning, i give you a unique sha256 hash called "R", and my lightning address, (and how much you owe me). you then authorise the transaction however, and in order to collect the payment, i reveal whatever it was that hashed to R, and that gives me the money, and gives you the receipt 00:40 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:41 < Eliel> I see, and... how do I prove that the preimage I have is indeed from you? 00:41 < aj> Eliel: i sent you the "R" value to start with. you can prove the preimage corresponds with the R value by running it trhough sha256 and checking you get R as the result 00:42 < Eliel> ok, how about if the other person is uncooperative and wants to make trouble and tries to nevertheless claim that I didn't make the transaction. Can I prove to someone else (ie, a court) that they're full of bullshit? 00:44 -!- shangzhou [uid156782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdqomahqfbfjlqse] has joined #lightning-dev 00:47 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 00:50 < aj> Eliel: probably not economically; at least initially lightning will only be for small value transactions ($25 limit or so?), so you'd lose more going to court than you'd gain by getting your money back 00:51 < aj> Eliel: mathematically/cryptographically, all you'd need is to have the original request for payment that provides the R value and lightning address have a demonstrable signature (i don't think SSL would be enough, eg) 00:54 < gmaxwell> Eliel: consider, same boat as with a bitcoin payment. "You didn't pay me." "Yes I did, see bc.i/foo" "That isn't my address, asshole." "Uh guess it's my word against yours." 00:55 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqbdvukntvmvysvo] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ＿ﾉ乙(､ﾝ､)_] 01:29 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.43] has joined #lightning-dev 01:30 < rabidus_> gmaxwell: assume that you can prove the payment address 01:32 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.43] has quit [Client Quit] 01:33 < gmaxwell> then, as aj said. 01:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.43] has joined #lightning-dev 01:44 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.234.43] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 01:56 -!- cdecker [~quassel@2a02:aa16:1105:4a80:183c:ad5:f656:aa73] has joined #lightning-dev 02:12 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #lightning-dev 03:28 < rabidus_> what is that $25 limit? 03:51 -!- shangzhou [uid156782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdqomahqfbfjlqse] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:47 < luke-jr> rabidus_: basically AIUI, it's there so if Lightning screws up, there is a max liability of $25 :p 04:47 < rabidus_> so it's going to magically disappear in "near" future 04:48 < rabidus_> ok, -"near" 04:49 < luke-jr> yeah, I wouldn't call it "near" :P 04:49 < luke-jr> $25 is probably enough to significantly reduce on-chain volume 04:51 -!- jtimon [~quassel@211.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 04:55 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@107.red-83-61-221.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:07 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@107.red-83-61-221.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:07 < AaronvanW> is blockchain's thunder network currently trustless, or not quite? 06:07 < AaronvanW> (is Mats in here?) 06:08 < AaronvanW> I would assume it's not, but Peter Smith now sort of says that it is 07:00 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has joined #lightning-dev 07:07 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hqbdvukntvmvysvo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:08 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@67.205.158.84] has joined #lightning-dev 07:29 -!- jouke_ [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 07:58 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:59 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdjqgigcycapvway] has joined #lightning-dev 08:07 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-esevveyphvvmyxqo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cguhrffmamatrwdz] has joined #lightning-dev 08:40 -!- Anduck [~Anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:53 -!- Anduck [~Anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has joined #lightning-dev 09:09 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ＿ﾉ乙(､ﾝ､)_] 09:29 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.194] has joined #lightning-dev 09:34 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.194] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 10:07 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdjqgigcycapvway] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:08 < pigeons> i love the release names for elementsproject/lightning 10:34 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 10:54 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 11:40 -!- tcrypt [~tcrypt@c-73-189-178-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:51 -!- Grouver [~grouver@53535FBF.cm-6-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 12:00 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 12:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:21 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 13:34 -!- Grouver [~grouver@53535FBF.cm-6-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qkghpjpxgkzgzcoy] has joined #lightning-dev 13:35 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@107.red-83-61-221.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:51 -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-123-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:23 -!- cdecker [~quassel@2a02:aa16:1105:4a80:183c:ad5:f656:aa73] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:37 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 14:37 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 15:08 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has joined #lightning-dev 15:08 < TD-Linux> I want to buy a cat but the server seems to be down :( 15:34 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:08 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 16:09 < warren> The cat seller is losing tBTC revenue! 16:10 < TD-Linux> honestly at this point I would be willing to pay double 16:27 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qkghpjpxgkzgzcoy] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:48 < gmaxwell> oh no. 17:53 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 18:10 < rusty> Cat server back up. Block fork in testnet crashed lightningd. Diagnosing now... 18:15 < gmaxwell> rusty: is your lignting bitcoind a segwit node? 18:15 < TD-Linux> 6 confirmations in under 60 seconds, clearly testnet is the future 18:16 < rusty> gmaxwell: My testnet bitcoin node is yes, but it's older. version string says 139900 18:21 < gmaxwell> okay that good. 18:21 < rusty> It also runs 0.13.1rc1 on mainnet, but only pruned (not enough storage) 18:24 < TD-Linux> nice, got my cat! 18:29 < rusty> TD-Linux: w00t!! 18:30 < TD-Linux> the connect step took about 30 seconds to complete. dunno if that's normal. 18:30 < rusty> TD-Linux: heh, it waits for the funding tx to be buried, so that's *way faster* than normal. 18:30 < rusty> Also, it polls bitcoind every 30 seconds, so taht's kind of the minimum :) 18:31 < rusty> Damn, gtg. 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