--- Day changed Tue Feb 14 2017 00:03 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:14 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:17 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #lightning-dev 00:53 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57 -!- Guest3456 [~wew@50-0-169-197.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- Guest3456 [~wew@50-0-169-197.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has left #lightning-dev [] 01:04 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 -!- takayaim_ [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 01:09 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:10 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 01:21 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 01:26 -!- wasi_ [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #lightning-dev 01:26 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 01:40 -!- takayaim_ [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49 < sstone> rusty: hi! I've seen your answers to my issue on how to handle reconnections, and it seems that everyone has chosen the 'multiplexing over single connections' approach 01:51 < sstone> it makes sense and the spec is clearer with this in mind, but maybe it could be made more explicit ? 02:28 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 02:38 -!- cjamthagen [~user@h-88-153.a230.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lightning-dev 02:38 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #lightning-dev 03:43 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 05:20 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has joined #lightning-dev 05:24 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 05:51 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:02 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-198-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 06:03 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-198-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-198-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 06:20 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 06:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 06:43 -!- wbnns [sid105317@21/bitcoin/binns] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:47 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:48 -!- wbnns [sid105317@21/bitcoin/binns] has joined #lightning-dev 06:56 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] sstone opened pull request #110: BOLT 1: specify connection handling (master...multiplexing) https://git.io/vDiVU 07:21 -!- takayaim_ [~takayaima@em1-115-197-43.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 07:24 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-198-116.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:36 -!- wraithm [~textual@24-136-25-168.c3-0.lem-ubr2.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lightning-dev 08:14 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 08:17 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42 -!- wraithm [~textual@24-136-25-168.c3-0.lem-ubr2.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 16:07 -!- wraithm [~textual@24-136-25-168.c3-0.lem-ubr2.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:14 -!- wraithm [~textual@24-136-25-168.c3-0.lem-ubr2.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:30 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:31 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 16:54 < Eliel> Is it possible to extend lightning channels to have more than 2 participants? I was thinking about it and realized that the mechanism for invalidating old channel close transactions gets rather hairy to reason about when there's more than 2 participants. 17:03 < rusty2> Eliel: people keep asking this, but I can't figure out why. 17:04 < Eliel> rusty2: do you mean why would someone want a channel with more than 2 participants? 17:04 < rusty2> Eliel: yeah. 17:06 < rusty2> Eliel: You need to decide what happens if one party cheats. Currently, the counterparty gets all the funds; which is always a win for them. If you have more than one party, what happens? Does it devolve to an N-1 commitment at the current state? If so, that's a lot of signatures to send around for every commit. 17:07 < Eliel> I believe it'd reduce the need to actually ever close the channel because when there's more participants, there's more likely to be someone who actually wants to hold the coins in the channel. 17:07 < Eliel> although, that only holds if all participants can be trusted to be available 24/7 17:09 < rusty2> Eliel: AFAICT that's simply not true. If you have N participants, if any 1 wants out you have to close. 17:10 < rusty2> Well, I guess they could hand their privkey over to an existing participant, actually. 17:10 < rusty2> It seems like a really weird thing to do, though. 17:11 < Eliel> rusty2: but closing the channel is not the only way out. 17:12 < Eliel> you can have a channel where you have a zero balance, afterall 17:12 < rusty2> Eliel: well, you need N sigs on the next commitment transaction. 17:12 < Eliel> as long as the other participants in the channel are willing to hold the coins. 17:13 < Eliel> I realize that the channels probably won't scale to very large N values easily but I suspect 3-5 is still manageable. 17:19 < rusty2> Eliel: yes, so you can drain your channel and hand over your private key to all other members. 17:20 < Eliel> Or you could keep the private key to keep the possibility to still receive coins through the channel in the future. 17:22 < Eliel> Anyway, I think these kinds of channels would have their uses if they're possible to implement without breaking the security guarantees. 17:26 < Eliel> a 5-way channel would be ~equivalent to every participant having a 2-way channel with every other participant. It could do the job of 10 2-way channels with less bitcoins tied up in total. 17:30 < rusty2> Eliel: if you hold the private key you have to be involved in every transaction. 17:30 < Eliel> Yes, that's what limits the number of participants. 17:30 < rusty2> Eliel: except your reliability plummets has N increases. 17:31 < Eliel> and basically forms the selection criteria for those with whom such a channel makes sense to form with. 17:31 < Eliel> I doubt you'd want to form 5-way channels with random people. 17:33 < Eliel> you'd want some kind of assurance that the other participants are reliably available. 17:44 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-195-70.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 18:51 -!- HostFat_ [~HostFat@host175-240-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lightning-dev 18:54 -!- HostFat__ [~HostFat@host103-250-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03 -!- sugarpuff_ [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvpyxldtuolxtskc] has joined #lightning-dev 19:03 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idqfzqzabdfwzaee] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:04 -!- dabura667_ [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uflgnzrwnpyzujlh] has joined #lightning-dev 19:05 -!- inara` [~inara@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined #lightning-dev 19:06 -!- jouke_ [~jouke@5353D8FC.cm-6-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 19:06 -!- gwollon [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined #lightning-dev 19:07 -!- crescendo [~mozart@unaffiliated/crescendo] has joined #lightning-dev 19:07 -!- inara [~inara@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- koshii [~w@c-50-151-108-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fsotfgpohuwpphhk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hgvnkkpulglogxct] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- jouke [~jouke@unaffiliated/komkommer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- crescend1 [~mozart@173.203.100.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:07 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08 -!- Monthrec- [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has joined #lightning-dev 19:08 -!- koshii [~w@c-50-151-108-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 19:08 -!- sugarpuff_ is now known as sugarpuff 19:08 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 19:16 -!- gwollon is now known as gwillen 19:18 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell opened pull request #111: BOLT 2: document requirements of max-htlc-value-in-flight-msat (master...document-max-htlc-value-in-flight-msat) https://git.io/vDXRK 19:22 -!- takayaim_ [~takayaima@em119-72-193-248.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 19:24 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em1-115-195-70.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 20:24 -!- takayaim_ [~takayaima@em119-72-193-248.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em119-72-193-248.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 20:53 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@em119-72-193-248.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 22:28 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 22:39 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 22:51 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #lightning-dev 23:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@wlan149-033.wlan.uni-ulm.de] has joined #lightning-dev 23:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@wlan149-033.wlan.uni-ulm.de] has quit [Changing host] 23:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 23:44 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txxyzrrphgfzfnlk] has joined #lightning-dev 23:50 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51 -!- takayaimai [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev