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[~nvrhome@cpe-76-167-114-63.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:03 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 04:15 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:58 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 05:07 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:11 -!- JackH [~laptop@2a01:4c8:1038:6951:dd20:5c3f:b471:21a6] has joined #lightning-dev 05:26 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has joined #lightning-dev 05:34 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v7KkX 05:34 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master 3274087 kek-coin: Reword proportional fee explanation. 05:38 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 05:39 -!- Matt- [~matt@195.162.102.18] has quit [] 05:50 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:02 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-lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] Roasbeef opened pull request #218: Add a feature bit to allow nodes to opt-out of channel updates (master...no-chan-update) https://git.io/v76U3 13:14 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has left #lightning-dev [] 13:29 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:31 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker closed pull request #211: BOLT09: Further specify how bits are specified. (master...feature-bits) https://git.io/v7Ugy 13:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@x590cdd7b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev 13:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@x590cdd7b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 13:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 14:12 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:19 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:34 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:39 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:41 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:06 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 15:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 16:01 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 16:21 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:22 -!- Tulsene [uid52948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yaltddtjleijdvzh] has joined #lightning-dev 16:38 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-glpelueenmcvpbpx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:41 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:25 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell closed pull request #216: BOLT 11: change `r` to hold multiple entries. (master...bolt11-r-field-multientry) https://git.io/v7gTm 17:33 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:35 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell closed pull request #214: Closing tx rebase (master...closing-tx-rebase) https://git.io/v7WOh 17:36 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v76zu 17:36 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master 956e880 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: BOLT 7: add chain_hashes values to channel_update and channel_announcment... 17:36 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master 25fc33b Olaoluwa Osuntokun: glossary: move definition of `chain_hash` to BOLT #0... 18:05 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:33 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 19:07 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:17 -!- windsok [~windsok@45.63.59.8] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:18 -!- windsok [~windsok@45.63.59.8] has joined #lightning-dev 19:49 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-177-018-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@095-129-169-198-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 19:53 -!- jouke [~worst@unaffiliated/komkommer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55 -!- jouke [~worst@unaffiliated/komkommer] has joined #lightning-dev 20:42 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 21:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 21:51 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 23:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24 -!- lotf [~lotf@cpe-45-37-5-116.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:24 < lotf> What stops people from double spending with Lightning? 23:42 < rusty> lotf: the fact that their transaction is already in the blockchain? 23:44 < lotf> I don't follow. 23:45 < lotf> I thought Lightning transactions were offchain. 23:47 < aj> lotf: depends which part of lightning; there's channel open/commitment (which rusty referred to), individual transactions on the channel, and the channel close. the first and last are protected against double spends by the blockchain and waiting for confirmations. txes while the channel is open ... 23:47 < aj> lotf: ... are protected because at each stage they're made between two lightning users with an open comms channel to each other who keep track of each other's balance 23:48 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48 < lotf> Ok, lets say I have 10 bitcoins. 23:49 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 23:49 < lotf> I want in on Lightning because I want cheap fees. 23:49 < lotf> Do I move them all to some address and if I do that, how safe are they? Can I get them back if something goes awry? 23:51 < lotf> If I have to move small amounts into an address every time I want to spend bitcoin, that just seems like twice the fees. 23:51 < lotf> I'm not following how this is supposed to work. 23:52 < aj> lotf: to put them on lightning you open 1 or more (3 is a good number) of channels. so you might move 2.5 bitcoin to each of four channels, eg. that means putting them each into a 2-of-2 multisig address, requiring a sig by you and the other guy on your channel. 23:52 < aj> lotf: they might put in some btc too; leaving you with 4 channels each with a total of 5 bitcoins, eg 23:53 < lotf> Ok, now they are there and locked up? 23:53 < aj> lotf: as part of the setup, and before publishing those transactions to the blockchain, you both also give each other partially signed "reclaim" transactions, that either of you can finish signing to reclaim your initial balance if you so choose 23:53 < Emcy_> why is 3 the magc number 23:53 < lotf> What if I want to spend some at Amazon that is now accepting bitcoin. 23:53 < lotf> let's assume that happens 23:53 < aj> Emcy_: it's not magic. it's just good (and my favourite number). 1 is too low if you have temporary connectivity problems. 23:53 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53 < lotf> Would I maybe send them first to some Visa like Lightning channel 23:54 < Emcy_> its a routing thing? 23:54 < lotf> I just don't see how this will ever be cheap for me as a consumer. 23:54 < lotf> I can't keep opening channels all the time as that's an on-chain expensive transaction 23:54 < aj> lotf: if you happened to setup a channel with amazon, you just update each others balances without an on-chain transaction (hence no fees). so you now have 2.4 btc in one channel while amazon has 2.6 btc eg. 23:55 < lotf> Ok, but wouldn't it make more sense to have some huge processor 23:55 < lotf> that had channels open with amazon, walmart, etc 23:55 < lotf> could i do that 23:56 < aj> lotf: if you had a channel with rusty instead, because you were an earlier adopter than amazon, you can route your transaction via rusty to wells fargo to satoshi nakamoto to nasa to amazon or some other random path, each of whom update their balances with their partners, resulting in you being down .1 btc while amazon is up .1 btc 23:56 < lotf> and everybody has to keep track of that? 23:56 < aj> lotf: their software does, they don't 23:56 < lotf> what happens if someone's database gets screwed 23:57 < lotf> everyone is screwed? 23:57 < aj> lotf: same way you don't track how your ip packets get to google.com, but you can run tracert/traceroute to find out 23:57 < lotf> yeah but i'm shit out of luck 23:57 < lotf> someone has a bad database 23:57 < lotf> and now my bitcoins are gone 23:58 < aj> no, your bitcoins are always just in the channels you setup 23:58 < aj> if you forget your channels, you lose your bitcoins, but you only have three (or whatever) of those to keep track of 23:58 < lotf> yeah but i received some bitcion fromm some dude 23:59 < aj> then it ends up in your channel with rusty/amazon/whoever 23:59 < lotf> as payment for something through an intermediary and the database is screwed 23:59 < lotf> so all records of that are gone 23:59 < Emcy_> its not a database 23:59 < Emcy_> its the HLTC thing 23:59 < lotf> it's gotta be kept somewhere 23:59 < lotf> call it whatever