--- Day changed Tue Aug 08 2017 00:00 < lotf> there has to be a record of Billy paying me 00:00 < Emcy_> you can always recover your balance if one of the hops cant or wont play 00:00 < lotf> and if that record is screwed then it never happened and im out 00:00 < lotf> I already sent him my product 00:00 < lotf> now there is no record of him paying me 00:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:00 < aj> lotf: it's more like looking in your (physical) wallet -- your currnet cash is there, but unless you kept receipts, there's no record of who paid you or who you paid 00:01 < lotf> cause whoever was supposed to record that server blew up 00:01 < lotf> right and there are no receipts really 00:01 < Emcy_> lotf think of it like this 00:01 < aj> lotf: yeah, there are. when you receive a payment you get a crypto token that serves as a receipt 00:02 < Emcy_> irl if someone renegs on your contract, you take them to court. You might win you might not. 00:02 < lotf> yeah but that doesn't matter aj 00:02 < aj> lotf: err, send a payment 00:02 < lotf> who am i going to take that to and complain 00:02 < aj> lotf: you don't have to complain, the only way you lose money is if *your* server breaks (and your backups etc) 00:02 < Emcy_> a LN channel is a contract, each hop can be added to the contract. If someone renegs, you can take them to court on the blockchain. 00:03 < lotf> doesn't make sense to me 00:03 < aj> if someone renegs, you just get your money back 00:03 < Emcy_> and the outcome will always go in yoru favour if youve got a case, becuase the facts are known perfectly 00:03 < lotf> records gotta be kept somewhere 00:03 < Emcy_> you keep the records 00:03 < lotf> server that kept track of that dude paying me dies and im screwed 00:03 < Emcy_> like you keep a copy of a contract 00:03 < Emcy_> if someone fucks you, you take your contract to court 00:04 < lotf> where is the court 00:04 < lotf> who controls that 00:04 < Emcy_> the blockchain 00:04 < lotf> lol 00:04 < lotf> makes no sense 00:04 < Emcy_> this is an analogy 00:04 < lotf> ok he screwed me 00:04 < aj> lotf: say a payment goes from me to you via rusty and emcy, and rusty's computer blows up: ie aj -> rusty -> emcy -> lotf 00:04 < lotf> i have this contract 00:04 < lotf> whwat do i do 00:04 < Emcy_> your client goes to the blockchain automatically. You dont have to do shit. 00:05 < lotf> the blockchain doesn't have a record of this 00:05 < lotf> it's off chian 00:05 < Emcy_> it will once you submit your contract 00:05 < Emcy_> its an infallible judge, becuase the underlying crypto is infallible 00:05 < lotf> so what do i give the blockchain 00:06 < aj> lotf: sequence is "aj pays rusty .1 btc if he gives lotf's receipt X", then "rusty pays emcy .1 btc if emcy gives rusty a receipt for X", then "emcy pays lotf .1 btc for a receipt for X" 00:06 < Emcy_> the contract you signed before you even started doing business [ie a normal timelocked bitcoin txn] 00:06 < aj> lotf: if rusty's computer goes down, lotf provides a receipt for X and collects .1 btc from emcy, so lotf is happy and done. no one can take that .1 btc away anymore. 00:06 < lotf> emcy that doesn't include how i just got fucked 00:06 < lotf> only the amount of bitcion i put in 00:07 < aj> lotf: emcy collects .1 btc from rusty, by closing the channel publishing to the blockchain including the receipt X, so emcy is happy 00:08 < aj> lotf: if rusty's server blew up and has no backups that say he can get .1 btc by presenting X (after reading it off the blockchain), then rusty is out .1 btc and i'm super-happy. otherwise, he shows me X, and collects .1 btc from me. 00:08 < Emcy_> you get the amount of bitcoin you put in back in whole. Thats what keeps people honest. 00:08 < aj> lotf: but the recipient (lotf) is already paid by this time, and doesn't care about the other stuff 00:09 < lotf> I can't be paid 00:10 < aj> lotf: (otherwise, if rusty's server goes down before the payment makes it's way to emcy, lotf never gets any money, never gives out the receipt for being paid, and just never provides the service, so isn't out of pocket at all. i recover my .1 btc from rusty when the transaction times out, presuming i could even start the transaction) 00:10 < lotf> unless it's in a database somewhere 00:10 < lotf> doesn't make sense to me 00:10 < lotf> Ok...hey I appreciate the effort to explain 00:10 < aj> lotf: you're paid as soon as you reveal the receipt X to emcy. the only database you care about is the one you and emcy keep track of. 00:10 < lotf> Thanks for the help. 00:10 < aj> lotf: no worries, it's effin complicated, especially while you can't just dive in and play with it easily 00:10 < lotf> I'll read this and try to think about it. Seems ultra complicated. Hope it can be made simple for dummies like me. 00:11 < Emcy_> you want to read about the HTLC part 00:11 < lotf> but...I aint using it for a LONG time. 00:11 < Emcy_> thats what enables multi hops 00:11 < aj> Emcy_: (haha, sure, make it _more_ complicated :) 00:11 < lotf> I want to see first how many people are burned 00:11 < Emcy_> no one is going to get burned 00:11 < Emcy_> its mathemetics. It just works 00:11 < lotf> I think they will 00:11 < lotf> gotta have records 00:12 < lotf> but I'm just a dummy 00:12 < lotf> so you guys get to prove it 00:12 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:12 < lotf> I just want my bitcion to go up in value, get cheap transactions and be happy 00:12 < aj> lotf: 00:12 < lotf> :) 00:12 < Emcy_> its unintuitive. But everything about bitcoin is 00:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 00:12 < Emcy_> but it works 00:12 < lotf> bitcoin makes sense 00:12 < lotf> everyone keeps a copy of the record 00:12 < lotf> this 00:12 < lotf> this is...SCARY 00:13 < lotf> but I can't count above 20 because that's all the toes and fingers I have so 00:13 < lotf> I gotta just see what happens 00:13 < lotf> good luck to you guys 00:13 < lotf> buncha smarties 00:13 < Emcy_> peace 00:13 < lotf> take care and thanks! 00:22 -!- lotf [~lotf@cpe-45-37-5-116.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has joined #lightning-dev 01:47 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:33 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has joined #lightning-dev 03:00 -!- nvrhome [~nvrhome@cpe-76-167-114-63.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 03:00 -!- JackH [~laptop@46.231.18.66] has joined #lightning-dev 03:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55 -!- nvrhome [~nvrhome@cpe-76-167-114-63.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39 -!- berndj [~berndj@mail.azna.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:41 -!- berndj [~berndj@mail.azna.co.za] has joined #lightning-dev 04:45 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:07 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:07 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@095-129-169-198-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@095-129-169-198-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 05:09 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 05:15 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 05:47 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 05:49 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:22 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has joined #lightning-dev 06:30 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.163.226.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34 -!- MaxSan [~one@91.214.169.69] has joined #lightning-dev 06:41 -!- MaxSan [~one@91.214.169.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:52 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:56 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 07:08 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 07:13 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:13 < betawaffle> ... 07:13 < betawaffle> aj: i think you did a decent job, he just wasn't listening 07:14 < aj> betawaffle: nah, it's just complicated enough that even listening to a good explanation doesn't mean you'll get it 07:14 < betawaffle> :D 07:15 < aj> betawaffle: at least it's not like quantum physics where you listen, fail to understand, but think you do and found an explanation of religion too... 07:15 < betawaffle> lol 07:21 < Emcy_> its analogise for the normies 07:21 < Emcy_> always* 07:22 < Emcy_> until you get down to 'its magic aint gotta explain shit' 08:08 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40 < betawaffle> roasbeef: remember how my payment was lost as dust? is the software going to tell me that in the future? (also why is that channel still showing to me as pending) 08:46 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 08:51 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 09:09 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 09:38 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 09:43 -!- JackH [~laptop@46.231.18.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:55 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03 -!- JackH [~laptop@217.149.140.177] has joined #lightning-dev 10:17 <+roasbeef> betawaffle: that was a bug that's been fixed, if you restart your node it could transition to the fully closed state int he db 10:18 <+roasbeef> betawaffle: what constitues "dust" is asymmetric (can be diff on diff commitment transactions), it's possible it could issue a warning when creating an invoice perhaps? also possible to optimistically try and rebalance dust commitment outputs away 10:19 < betawaffle> yeah, i think maybe some sort of warning before trying to force close a transaction like that 10:20 < betawaffle> ie. you may reconsider the close if your side will just be dust 10:34 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:26 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 11:43 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:43 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 12:33 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 12:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 13:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 13:25 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:02 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-72-83-36-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@static-100-38-216-231.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:07 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-72-83-36-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 16:11 -!- jouke [~worst@unaffiliated/komkommer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:13 -!- jouke [~worst@2001:1c02:1600:9200:7119:18a0:a794:e3e1] has joined #lightning-dev 16:13 -!- jouke [~worst@2001:1c02:1600:9200:7119:18a0:a794:e3e1] has quit [Changing host] 16:13 -!- jouke [~worst@unaffiliated/komkommer] has joined #lightning-dev 16:20 -!- lightningbot [~supybot@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:febb:bbc1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:21 -!- aj [aj@cerulean.erisian.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:59 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:59 -!- [b__b] [~b__b]@ec2-54-85-45-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00 -!- [b__b] [~b__b]@ec2-54-85-45-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 18:26 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:43 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 19:15 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 20:30 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30 -!- ThomasV_ [~ThomasV@x4db34e92.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev 20:34 -!- ThomasV_ [~ThomasV@x4db34e92.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 20:41 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lightning-dev 21:07 -!- jimpo [~jimpo@ec2-54-175-255-176.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31 -!- marcoagner [~user@187.113.131.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44 -!- marcoagner [~user@179.177.245.14] has joined #lightning-dev 22:08 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 22:13 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 23:01 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:10 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 23:48 -!- JackH [~laptop@217.149.140.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:50 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50 -!- lightningbot [~supybot@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:febb:bbc1] has joined #lightning-dev