--- Day changed Thu Aug 10 2017 00:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:07 -!- nvrhome [~nvrhome@67.21.71.102] has quit [] 00:08 -!- nvrhome [~nvrhome@67.21.71.102] has joined #lightning-dev 00:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 00:50 -!- nvrhome [~nvrhome@67.21.71.102] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZzZz] 01:17 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 01:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 01:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:33 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:04 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 03:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 03:40 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 03:57 -!- JackH [~laptop@46.231.18.66] has joined #lightning-dev 04:30 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 04:59 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:19 < betawaffle> roasbeef: how long until coinjoin is supported for funding transactions? 05:20 < cdecker> betawaffle, not a v1.0 feature I'm afraid 05:20 < betawaffle> :P 05:25 < betawaffle> this is the scenario i imagine: you send fiat to some payment processor and they aggregate the funding transactions of you and other customers 05:31 < cdecker> Aggregate how? That would probably require the processor to participate in the funding process since funding depends on parameters negotiated between the endpoints 05:31 < betawaffle> yeah, i realize that now 05:33 < betawaffle> does bitcoin already have a mechanism to sign inputs conditionally on specific outputs being in the transaction? 05:34 < betawaffle> like: "i authorize this input only if these specific outputs are present" 05:35 < betawaffle> that could cause problems for privacy, right? 05:36 < cdecker> That's how sighash_all does (sign transaction, including all outputs) which is invalid if any outputs is changed (or anything else tbh) 05:37 < cdecker> Well channels are public by default, otherwise we cannot route, but it involves yet another party just to create the funding tx 05:39 < betawaffle> cdecker: well, i was talking about you're depositing fiat to open a channel between you and the payment processor 05:39 < betawaffle> (and other people are too) 05:40 < betawaffle> oh, maybe SIGHASH_SINGLE is what i was thinking of 05:44 < cdecker> Oh, so with a payment processor there is no special case 05:44 < cdecker> But if you want to open a single channel between more than 2 endpoints things are getting really hairy 05:45 < betawaffle> cdecker: i don't mean a single channel, just a single funding transaction 05:45 < cdecker> For example how do you punish a misbehaving participant? You'd have to keep revocations for each possible misbehaving node 05:46 < betawaffle> is the funding transaction involved in that? or are you just misunderstanding what i mean? 05:46 < betawaffle> (the commitment txs would be independent per-customer) 05:46 < cdecker> Oh ok, that should be possible, if you tell the payment processor to send to a given script 05:47 < betawaffle> cdecker: would it need excessive coordination between the different customers, though? 05:47 < cdecker> The script is negotiated by the participants which then tell the payment processor to send to a given destination 05:48 < cdecker> But you only gain something if the funds are aleady on the payment processor, otherwise you are (almost) doubling the txs on-chain 05:48 < betawaffle> so, each customer negotiates a script independently with the payment processor, then the payment processor can build a shared funding tx? 05:49 < betawaffle> yeah, i was thinking the channel open would come from the payment processor 05:49 < betawaffle> and they would pay you your deposit 05:49 < betawaffle> (in-channel) 06:11 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 06:25 < cdecker> So the payment processor is not involved? I don't get it 06:25 < betawaffle> they are involved... 06:26 < betawaffle> cdecker: ok, so first imagine no aggregation... 06:26 < betawaffle> you deposit fiat and they open a channel to you with a payment of the amount you deposited 06:26 < betawaffle> right? 06:27 < cdecker> Using their coins to fund the funding tx, right? 06:27 < betawaffle> yes 06:27 < betawaffle> at the current exchange rate, i would assume 06:27 < cdecker> Ok, so the endpoints are me and the payment processor, got it 06:27 < betawaffle> yep 06:28 < betawaffle> probably the payment processor and your phone, if in-person, or the payment processor and your computer if over the internet 06:30 < cdecker> Ok, so the coins for the funding transaction originate from the payment processor which is also the party opening the channel 06:30 < betawaffle> yep 06:30 < cdecker> That works today: the funder just needs to tell the fundee that he's opening a channel using a certain funding tx and the output 06:30 < cdecker> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/02-peer-protocol.md#the-funding_created-message 06:31 < betawaffle> so the question i had is, what would be required for the payment processor to aggregate multiple funding transactions into one? 06:31 < cdecker> So the payment processor is free to have whatever else he likes in the funding tx, the important thing is that the output specified in the `funding_created` adheres to the specified format 06:31 < betawaffle> would all the aggregated parties need to sign the full funding transaction? 06:32 < cdecker> Nope, just the payment processor which is the funding party 06:32 < betawaffle> nice 06:32 < cdecker> Since all inputs would come from the payment processor he can aggregate multiple funding txs into a single tx 06:33 < cdecker> I was a bit confused about which party was providing funds, and who would have to sign before, but since the service owns all funds initially that works 06:34 < betawaffle> ok, and then how about this... can one of the customers have an input they provide added to the funding transaction? 06:35 < betawaffle> (what would be involved in doing that?) 06:35 < cdecker> That'd require additional negotiation (and I'm not sure if there's a way the client could block the whole process) 06:36 < betawaffle> i was thinking maybe one of the other sighash types would help 06:36 < cdecker> He'd certainly need to be involved in the signing step, and he'd need to be assured that he'd get his funds back evnetually 06:36 < cdecker> Nope sighash doesn't help you there 06:36 < betawaffle> k 06:36 < cdecker> (I think) 06:37 < betawaffle> seems like SIGHASH_SINGLE or something could help 06:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38 < cdecker> SIGHASH_SINGLE matches inputs with outputs, it doesn't allow you to select which output to include in the signature 06:39 < betawaffle> SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY? 06:40 < cdecker> Not sure whether it's any better than sighash_all, it still requires the client to add a signature to the TX, so we need to negotiate at least that 06:41 < betawaffle> yeah 06:55 -!- moctos [~moctos@cpe-107-9-138-59.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@079-170-138-094-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-178-248-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 07:08 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #lightning-dev 07:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 08:10 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37.247.1.218] has joined #lightning-dev 08:18 -!- sstone [~fabrice@185.186.24.109.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:44 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37.247.1.218] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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