--- Day changed Sun Dec 24 2017 00:01 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:04 < fresheneesz> @adiabat - so what that the fees would be orders of magnitude more than the spend? Who cares? If that's what you want to spend fees on, why not allow it? Besides, the whole point of lightning is that you don't submit these HTLCs. 00:07 < fresheneesz> Perhaps I'm not understanding the requirements here 00:09 < fresheneesz> My understanding is that if you want to send X bitcoins via the LN, you create a commitment transaction that has a fee *both* sides agree on that updates the channel balances such that X bitcoins are moved. It shouldn't matter if this is 1 satoshi or 1 billion satoshi, closing the channel is going to require basically the same on-chain fee. Why would moving 1 satoshi change the question in any way? 00:09 < fresheneesz> The equation* (not question) 00:24 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 00:25 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 00:29 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 00:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 01:03 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:04 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 01:04 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 01:09 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 01:20 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 01:26 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:35 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 01:46 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 02:15 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:85a2:f8b7:69f6:d758:b49a] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:16 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 02:27 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:41c2:1fb:70d:8361:570b] has joined #lightning-dev 02:30 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:32 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 02:34 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:45 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 02:47 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:52 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:01 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 03:06 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:15 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 03:19 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev 03:22 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 03:43 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awvislwfhaysiyvv] has joined #lightning-dev 04:06 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 04:07 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 04:23 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 04:27 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:c912:fdb2:6ed7:5f3b] has joined #lightning-dev 04:35 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 04:38 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:47 <+roasbeef> fresheneesz: it's a prefernce, nothing more. I may not want to route any htlc's that are border line dust, as if I need to go to chain to sweep those i'll be paying a bit of fees. also it puts a floor on anything i'll forward 04:54 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 05:04 -!- riclas [riclas@72.210.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 05:05 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 05:28 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 06:04 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 06:35 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 06:40 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:43 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:46 < adiabat> fresheneesz: It's not a real payment that I can receive. But if I forward it, it's a real loss for me. 06:46 < adiabat> I accept a 1 satoshi HTLC incoming, but that gives me nothing. Then I create an HTLC with the next node, also for 1 satoshi 06:47 < adiabat> if it gets settled on-chain, I lose the satoshi I've sent, but I can't get the satoshi I've "received" 06:48 < adiabat> also, closing the channel has a different fee depending on if there are HTLCs or not. The commitment transaction itself gets a little bigger 06:49 < adiabat> due to the extra outputs, but that's not so bad 06:49 < adiabat> but having extra outputs which need to be swept creates much larger fees, and in the case of sub-dust HTLCs, the increase in fee size it greater than the value of the HTLC 06:53 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awvislwfhaysiyvv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:55 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:02 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uwxwnmekqcktgaie] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:04 -!- Kozuch [~Kozuch@81.0.198.168] has joined #lightning-dev 07:07 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has joined #lightning-dev 07:08 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 07:12 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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[~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:43 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jochznppruyvrdbc] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:45 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 14:50 < fresheneesz> So in order to send 1 satoshi payments, you'd have to basically first pay a larger amount that is on-chainable? 14:58 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lightning-dev 14:58 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 15:00 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:01 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:02 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 15:03 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 15:23 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:29 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 15:39 -!- surj [~surj@modemcable093.221-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 15:41 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 15:42 -!- photonclock [~photonclo@47.37.153.193] has joined #lightning-dev 15:42 < mlz> fresheneesz, if you only need to make one tx in a year, you don't need LN 15:43 < fresheneesz> mlz, that's not what i'm talking about 15:43 < mlz> what are you talking about then? 15:44 < fresheneesz> I'm trying to understand the limitations of the LN. I tried making my first transaction be a 1 satoshi payment and it failed because it was too small. What if you want to make thousands or millions of 1 satoshi payments, like with streaming money? I'm trying to figure out how that would be possible 15:46 < mlz> i made 5000 txs of only one satoshi each tx 15:47 < mlz> did it 10 months ago: https://paste.ubuntu.com/23973377/ 15:51 -!- Anteros [uid228384@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-havkjcfxuvlefzgp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:52 < fresheneesz> Over lightning...? 15:53 < fresheneesz> Was your first transaction a 1 satoshi tx? 16:01 -!- kbgg [Elite20763@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-ddcrriwlavunczga] has quit [Quit: EliteBNC 1.6.5-git-0ffa682 - http://elitebnc.org] 16:01 -!- mesh_ [meshcollid@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-gaqodbwqduovxbiv] has quit [Quit: EliteBNC 1.6.5-git-0ffa682 - http://elitebnc.org] 16:08 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 16:14 < mlz> this is the first one: "payment_hash": "880ece8990628f1477f120c347432a66fe4b5cd7e56070f5ab8c8f98168a72ff", 16:14 < mlz> "value": 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