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[~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 10:03 < spudowiar> Hmm, cannot connect to Bitrefill 10:03 < spudowiar> @justin I think your LND node is dead 10:06 < spudowiar> It is possible that it my fault 10:06 < spudowiar> *it is 10:29 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:32 -!- blyat [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:36 < molz> spudowiar, oh no you broke it.. :D 10:37 * booyah marks spudowiar as untrusted node 10:41 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 10:41 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:44 < spudowiar> I'm just breaking stuff 10:45 < spudowiar> I broke my Ledger and CTO might have to send me a new one :( 10:49 < cdecker> roasbeef, yes, c-lightning will only allow 1 channel per peer currently 10:50 < molz> haha nice, spudowiar 10:51 < spudowiar> Got some interesting stuff about Ledger wallets to post sooooon though, at least 10:51 < molz> im hoping i'll win a nano but the price has to go down to 12112 :D 10:51 < spudowiar> But I shall return to the sanctity of my TREZOR :) 10:51 < spudowiar> Where I cannot break stuff 10:52 < lndbot1> guess I should buy a Trezor ha 10:52 < molz> so trezor is better than ledger? 10:52 < spudowiar> No, I'm just testing the limitations of the hardware 10:52 < spudowiar> And I bricked it 10:53 < molz> :D 10:53 < spudowiar> But this is why I say that you don't technically own the Ledger 10:53 < spudowiar> You're sort of renting it from them 10:54 < molz> i've never bought a hw wallet 10:54 < spudowiar> I recommend a TREZOR and/or a Ledger 10:54 < molz> if it's free, i'll take it :D 10:54 < spudowiar> I don't really like Ledger because of the Secure Element, but that's really a personal choice 10:54 < spudowiar> molz: lol 10:55 < molz> but no i still don't trust any of them 10:55 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:56 < spudowiar> molz: Why not? 10:56 < spudowiar> You don't have to trust a TREZOR to a certain extent 10:57 < spudowiar> (on the other hand, you have to almost entirely trust Ledger) 10:57 < spudowiar> > if it's free, i'll take it :D 10:57 < spudowiar> Want this bricked one? :P 10:57 < molz> lol 10:58 < spudowiar> Anyway, if you trust your Bitcoin to a computer, you can trust a TREZOR 10:58 < spudowiar> With Ledger though, backdooring the RNG, etc. would be easier 10:58 < molz> spudowiar, you could hack into a trezor.. are you sure it's safe now or someone else might be able to outsmart you? :D 10:59 < spudowiar> Even if it's not safe now, if a bug in the future is found, you can update the firmware 10:59 < spudowiar> Also, you were safe with BIP-39 passphrases 11:05 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:05 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17 < nirved> hardware wallets should have a mike for gathering more entropy, so before generating a new master seed you sing it a song 11:20 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:21 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:24 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@73.61.11.105] has joined #lightning-dev 11:28 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:36 < pm7> I wonder where people who worry about possibility to hack trezor, but don't worry that they can be forced to provied PIN live 11:36 < pm7> *provide 11:37 < pm7> obligatory xkcd :) https://xkcd.com/538/ 11:37 < pm7> passphrases help with both scenarios 11:38 < pm7> nirved: I think Trezor mix internal entropy and some entropy from PC 11:40 < booyah> pm7: because they are logical 11:40 < booyah> and realize theft is much more common then kidnapping 11:41 < booyah> also, if kidnapping is done by e.g. LEA, they can say they forgot. 11:42 < pm7> simple theft might be common thing, but thief capable of cracking trezor? that's not common 11:42 < booyah> that XKCD is about ruthless agency like CIA or Clintons, that will commit any attrocity to complete the goal. Most of regular thieves are not quite that 11:43 < booyah> pm7: it will be common when they simply specialize, the muscle steal trezors, and they hire 1 geek to do "forgotten pin recovery" 11:43 < pm7> booyah: do you have any source for atributing who are "they" in this xkcd comic? :) 11:44 < booyah> pm7: well since they resort to kidnapping and torture, they are not just thieves 11:44 < pm7> well, it was that simple, attacker would risk erasing seed pernamently and the vulnerability was fixed anywa 11:44 < pm7> well, it wasn't that simple, attacker would risk erasing seed pernamently and the vulnerability was fixed anyway 11:45 < booyah> pm7: no, trezor still is fully vulnerable 11:45 < pm7> [cittion required] 11:45 < booyah> pm7: why not just open the trezor and read pin and seed from silicon? 11:46 < pm7> maybe because it costs hundreds thousands of dollars? 11:46 < pm7> ok, maybe a bit less, but still 11:46 < booyah> pm7: so just like 10 btc? 11:46 < booyah> probably more like 10k, so like 1 btc 11:46 < pm7> you would keep so much money without passphrase and/or multisig? 11:47 < pm7> I wouldn't 11:47 < booyah> comercialize it, and it will be like cracking xboxes or something, once required hours of crypto research, now doable by any kid for few bucks 11:47 < booyah> pm7: yeah first virus your target's computer to get the passphrase 11:47 < molz> pm7, oh some people do use their hw wallets as cold storage, they think those are their "vaults" 11:48 < booyah> if trezor would be more competent, they would simply encrypt this data with long-pin 11:48 < booyah> and would provide 2 or 3 areas (random order) 11:48 < pm7> booyah: how can you protect yourself against targeted attack from such attack without going into paranoia? 11:48 < molz> the guy who spudowiar helped had like 7 btc in his trezor? 11:48 < booyah> so you can give up a decoy passphrase to unlock account with less funds in it 11:48 < pm7> booyah: you are talking about passphrase 11:48 < booyah> pm7: by doing the above. simple firmware change 11:49 < spudowiar> molz: Well, 7 BTC wasn't that much at the start :) 11:49 < booyah> pm7: trezor-decryption passphrase would go through similar PIN entry process. and would be longer ofc 11:49 < molz> spudowiar, yea because the price was lower then 11:49 < pm7> they said new trezor (and maybe old one by firmware update) will support giving passphrase in secure way (by showing keyboard on screen) 11:49 < booyah> pm7: hm? 11:50 < spudowiar> pm7: The old one won't by firmware update 11:50 < spudowiar> The UX is just too poor 11:50 < spudowiar> The new one has a touchscreen though 11:50 < booyah> spudowiar: that's bullshit of them 11:50 < pm7> spudowiar: why not? did you see secure seed recovery process? 11:50 < spudowiar> pm7: Yes and, as someone who's stress tested that, it's really bad for your carpal tunnel :P 11:51 < spudowiar> I was testing it before release BTW 11:51 < pm7> so we cannot use something similar for passphrase? :( 11:52 < spudowiar> pm7: You can try but it's a real pain 11:52 < booyah> pm7: how it works 11:52 < spudowiar> I did test it with only alphanumeric but it was barely usable 11:52 < spudowiar> And people have symbols, etc. 11:53 < pm7> booyah: https://youtu.be/Xogtx4IPVSQ?t=46s 11:54 < pm7> spudowiar: maybe integrate diceware dictionary for passphrases? :) 11:54 < spudowiar> Maybe :) 12:00 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjxeyagxblaocafr] has joined #lightning-dev 12:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S010618b16923ebb1.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lightning-dev 12:22 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S010618b16923ebb1.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:25 < cdecker> pm7, does endurance remove duplicate channel_announcements and channel_updates? It's been spamming me for the last few hours 12:30 < pm7> cdecker: why are you asking me? 12:31 < cdecker> Not sure :-) 12:31 < cdecker> Oops, managed to get confused :-) 12:31 < cdecker> Sorry about that 12:34 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:37 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37 < molz> hm i thought pm7 is the owner of endurance node? no? 12:56 < pm7> I don't even know what you are talking about :) 13:11 < molz> oh right.. shhh lol 13:16 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@73.61.11.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 -!- jb55 [~jb55@184.70.3.22] has joined #lightning-dev 13:23 < jb55> endurance is starblocks right? 13:24 < spudowiar> > if trezor would be more competent, they would simply encrypt this data with long-pin 13:24 < spudowiar> booyah: That's shows a poor understanding of how this works 13:24 < spudowiar> You cannot reasonably encrypt data on an embedded device with a PIN 13:25 < jb55> spudowiar: how did you brick your ledger, did you load new firmware or something? 13:25 < spudowiar> jb55: Downgrading the firmware to a version that their HSM server no longer supports or something like that 13:25 < spudowiar> CTO is not quite sure 13:25 < spudowiar> He'll be sending me some new ones 13:25 < jb55> HSM server... wth 13:26 < spudowiar> Yeah, you're a slave to their infrastructure 13:26 < spudowiar> I'm powerless at unbricking this, the ball is in their court 13:26 < jb55> surely you should be able to sign stuff offline no? 13:26 < spudowiar> Yeah, you can sign transactions, etc. 13:26 < spudowiar> But I'm talking about the firmware installation 13:27 < jb55> ah 13:27 < jb55> think I'll stick with trezor... 13:27 < spudowiar> :) 13:27 < spudowiar> If TREZOR die, you can carry on developing for it 13:27 < spudowiar> s/die/disappear/ 13:27 < spudowiar> I have no idea why I chose that verb :) 13:27 < spudowiar> If Ledger disappear, MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT TRY TO UPGRADE THE FIRMWARE :) 13:27 < jb55> yeah biggest thing for me was that the hardware files are available as well 13:28 < spudowiar> I was sent this Ledger anyway 13:28 < spudowiar> I didn't buy it :) 13:35 < pm7> you cannot disable warning message if flashing firmware not from trezor team 13:36 < spudowiar> pm7: There are workarounds. For example, vendor firmwares like the TREZOR 2 will support 13:36 < spudowiar> For the TREZOR 1, that can be implemented as a second bootloader 13:36 < spudowiar> (I have the code for that second bootloader on my laptop) 13:36 < spudowiar> pm7: You can also just build your own TREZOR. Open hardware, my friend :) 13:38 < pm7> I haven't yet read about vendor firmware on Trezor2. 13:38 < pm7> Second bootloader won't stop warning message (unless you get signature for bootloader, which you shouldn't be able to do) 13:38 < pm7> sure I can build my own trezor, I was talking about existing one :) 13:39 < spudowiar> pm7: The second bootloader would implement vendor firmwares and would be signed by SatoshiLabs 13:39 < pm7> only if you somehow get them to release such second bootloader 13:40 < spudowiar> pm7: That could happen very soon ;) 13:41 < pm7> isn't this a bit risky? 13:41 < spudowiar> Why? 13:42 < pm7> making it easier to create counterfeit trezor with hostile firwamre 13:42 < spudowiar> Why? 13:42 < spudowiar> It's like the vendor firmwares, it displays a logo and name 13:42 < spudowiar> Read about the vendor firmwares 13:46 < pm7> can you give me some staring point? 13:49 -!- fresheneesz [uid270960@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rjwgzjrlzidddlgz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:59 -!- SevenTimes [~SevenTime@c-73-162-115-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:01 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 14:19 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjxeyagxblaocafr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:23 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 14:30 < booyah> You cannot reasonably encrypt data on an embedded device with a PIN 14:31 < booyah> wtf, why not? by PIN I mean a password 14:32 < booyah> that can be entered using something like current secure pin entry (and would need to be like 20-30 digits to be secure, especially as it's only digits) 14:32 < eck> you do gain some entropy by using a password, but you also lose it all because your password is the name of your dog 14:39 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:42 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhipolxgvzfoubot] has joined #lightning-dev 15:24 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 15:31 -!- Tennis [~Tennis@unaffiliated/tennis] has joined #lightning-dev 15:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:47 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lightning-dev 15:47 -!- jb55 [~jb55@184.70.3.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52 -!- jb55 [~jb55@184.70.3.22] has joined #lightning-dev 16:16 < booyah> eck: are you saying that entropy thing in relation to using pinentry? 16:17 < booyah> because devices should be able to easily generate high grade entropy from hardware sources (in addition to using *timing* of keys) 16:17 -!- wxss [~user@192.40.89.234] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:34 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 16:38 -!- jb55 [~jb55@184.70.3.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:41 -!- Anteros [uid228384@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pacvobarhhhmcrdr] has joined #lightning-dev 16:44 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:47 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57 -!- Tennis [~Tennis@unaffiliated/tennis] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01 -!- Kozuch [~Kozuch@81.0.198.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:05 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:90e1:6ad8:5e9f:d5de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:24 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:b61b:293a:b260:879e:b082] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:29 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lightning-dev 17:38 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:eaf4:293a:b260:879e:b082] has joined #lightning-dev 17:46 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yiienuwjnzxwmnqn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:49 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:29 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhipolxgvzfoubot] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:49 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 18:52 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:27 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-luofzxnqenyuuzok] has joined #lightning-dev 19:30 -!- riclas [riclas@72.210.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:14 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-73-119-55-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:19 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lightning-dev 20:27 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 20:40 -!- takinbo_ [~takinbo@unaffiliated/takinbo] has joined #lightning-dev 20:41 -!- takinbo [~takinbo@unaffiliated/takinbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41 -!- takinbo_ is now known as takinbo 20:54 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 20:57 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:10 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:eaf4:293a:b260:879e:b082] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:32 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:36 -!- polimata [~polimata@2804:7f1:1280:fea8:293a:b260:879e:b082] has joined #lightning-dev 22:59 -!- blyat_ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:02 -!- blyat__ [~blyat@cpe-71-71-200-3.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:12 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:28 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 23:48 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-68-232-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:51 -!- Anteros [uid228384@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pacvobarhhhmcrdr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]