--- Day changed Mon Feb 26 2018 00:01 -!- n1bor [~n1bor@185.9.34.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:15 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 00:21 -!- lxer [~lx@ip5f5bd657.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #lightning-dev 00:25 < doxxy> Any good news on the minimum HTLC value is too large: 1e-08 error? 00:34 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43 -!- JackH [~laptop@i25091.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 00:47 -!- whphhg [~whphhg@unaffiliated/whphhg] has joined #lightning-dev 00:57 -!- JackH [~laptop@212.78.169.180] has joined #lightning-dev 01:00 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:03 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24 -!- volition [~volition@27-33-177-17.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 01:25 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:34 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37 -!- almkglor_ [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has joined #lightning-dev 01:40 < almkglor_> @doxxy it's helping lnd find underflow bugs all over their codebase 01:40 < doxxy> nice! 01:43 < almkglor_> Unrelatedly, c-lightning wants to release something soon: https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/c-lightning/2018-February/000003.html 01:45 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:46 -!- almkglor_ [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:46 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 02:01 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:03 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 02:03 -!- Mark____ [5bd4cf04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.212.207.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:26 -!- llou [~textual@cm-83-97-182-195.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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joined #lightning-dev 11:54 -!- rjromero [~rjromero@149-169-170-85.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lightning-dev 12:02 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@ppp-94-64-157-186.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lightning-dev 12:02 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@ppp-94-64-157-186.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Changing host] 12:02 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined #lightning-dev 12:04 < rjromero> /logout 12:04 -!- rjromero [~rjromero@149-169-170-85.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@104.254.92.61] has joined #lightning-dev 12:18 -!- jb55 [~jb55@64.114.30.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@88.202.178.102] has quit [Quit: farmerwampum] 12:25 -!- farmerwampum_ [~farmerwam@209.95.51.102] has joined #lightning-dev 12:28 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-179.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 12:28 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-179.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:28 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 12:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:38 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-153-142.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 12:44 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@104.254.92.61] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 13:01 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-153-142.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-61-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 13:04 -!- jojeyh [~delphi@2602:306:b8b6:b970:41cc:8d6f:4e2b:2830] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:08 -!- icota [~igor@cm-2230.cable.globalnet.hr] has joined #lightning-dev 13:10 < ianthius> does anyone know of a good rebuttal that is already written to dispute the claims that a single transaction invalidates the routing table of all nodes on the LN? 13:13 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-61-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15 -!- kunla [~kunla@81.193.53.189] has joined #lightning-dev 13:15 -!- HFRadical [~none@103.254.153.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16 -!- HFRadical [~none@103.254.153.99] has joined #lightning-dev 13:31 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:33 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35 -!- pm7 [pm7@gateway/shell/mydevil.net/x-dtanmptanfvxlbpv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39 -!- pm7 [pm7@gateway/shell/mydevil.net/x-fjrcjttfkrnhwsty] has joined #lightning-dev 14:05 < mlz> ianthius, the best rebuttal is from you, if you've done transactions on LN both on mainnet and testnet, and see for yourself if your txs can invalidate anything 14:13 -!- Osso [~osso@35.1.92.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S01067cb21bc956ba.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:23 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S01067cb21bc956ba.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36 < ianthius> mlz: whether we like it or not this falken-whatever-his-name-is guys videos will spread FUD, it would be nice to have articles or posts we can point to that discuss the issues brought up and outline why they are wrong or mis-informed. 14:40 < mlz> ianthius, you're welcome to write such an article 14:41 < pigeons> he's been doing that for a while, starting with big blocks, i'm not sure engaging with him his helpful but i understand your concern 14:41 < ianthius> mlz: so are you :P 14:42 < mlz> ianthius, no, i have no interest in wasting my time on assholes 14:42 < ianthius> mlz: i am just asking if anyone already knows of a good article which covers the routing issues in a succint way and the proposed solution. Telling me to write one is not very helpful 14:42 < mlz> first time i heard of such a dumb thing when i read your post 14:42 < mlz> they're desperate, beware 14:58 < ianthius> pigeons: I don't really want to engage with him directly, but the routing problem isn't trivial and I'm actually curious myself to a large degree about the proposed solution, because it likely quite complex, but i doubt the people who are spending loads of time on this (whom i judge to be very smart) would be wasting their time if it was a non-solvable problem. I would just like to have resources 14:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 14:58 < ianthius> to 1) UNderstand it better, and 2) be able to point other people to. 15:09 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-65-96-61-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:13 < rusty> ianthius: routing is easy, making it scale is harder. At what point you can no longer maintain the entire routing state in your phone depends on the rate of changes, which is a matter for great debate. My guess is somewhere around 1M channels. 15:16 < rusty> ianthius: most solutions have worked on partial knowledge; how little can you get away with and still make payments. You can also do some kinds of trustless outsourcing, which I've seen less work on. But the next 10x is still fairly easy, we think: gradually rotating landmarks and routing hints from the remote end will get you there. 15:17 < rusty> ianthius: How we get to 1B+ channels is going to be fascinating, but I think solutions there will depend entirely on the topological assumptions; we don't know what that'll look like right now. At the 1M channel stage we should have more information. 15:34 < ianthius> rusty: thanks for the reasoned response. I look forward to diving deeper here. It would seem this routing issue and the need to constantly monitor the network contribute to perhaps needing a lighter L3 that is more mobile friendly. At this point i don't think this L2 is going to allow us to solve the problem of bringing micropayments to the unbanked masses... (but i think that should be the 15:34 < ianthius> ultimate end goal). 15:35 < ianthius> *bringing TRUSTLESS micropayments to the unbanked masses 15:37 < rusty> ianthius: The future is always hard to predict, but I am cautiously optimistic. Of course, such an aim is a generational goal. 15:40 <+roasbeef> ianthius: remember that falk is a professional politician, his vids are super bombastic, he compares LN to the inability of people in the 90's securing IRC... 15:41 <+roasbeef> a single transaction doesn't "invalidate anything" it's a utxo being consumed, people just prune that edge 15:41 <+roasbeef> also note that no laptops/phones or w/e will never really need to advertise channels, they'll use routing hints for now, and in the future maybe full on HORNET encrypted rendezvous packets 15:42 < doxxy> Generations don't really exist. 15:42 <+roasbeef> generations? 15:44 < doxxy> Yeah, like the idea of a group of similarly aged individuals, socialized during the smae socially and politically relevant times, possessed of a common entelechy, outlook on the world, and patterns of behavior. Baby-boomers, Gen X, Gen Y (the 'Millenials'), the 'Silent Generation.' Its all just bullshit. 15:44 < doxxy> Something we like to believe, but for which there is little empirical evidence. 15:44 <+roasbeef> lol where'd this come from? 15:44 < doxxy> rusty started it 15:45 < aj> i think "generational goal" just means "multi-decade timeframe" 15:45 < doxxy> oh 15:45 <+roasbeef> heh 15:45 < doxxy> sry man i smoke bud 15:45 <+roasbeef> lolol 15:45 < rusty> Yeah, I mean 25 years out. 15:45 <+roasbeef> yeh things don't magically pop out with "infinity scalability" 15:45 < aj> (or else it means "i'll leave the hard problems to my kids to solve") 15:46 <+roasbeef> nor do they ever need to, adoption takes time, engineering kinks get discovered, iterate, repeat 15:46 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, Falkvinge has made it clear that he considers words a tool to shape reality, not to be constrained by it. I consider that antithetical to rational discourse, and personally deeply repugnant. 15:48 < ianthius> I agree that my aim of trustless microbanking for the masses is lofty. But I think we need to deliver it sooner than a couple of decades. I also think we CAN! 15:49 < aj> well, bitcoin started last decade, so arguably we're halfway through a generation? 15:50 < ianthius> I plan to throw my hat in the ring full time within a couple of years, so there will be at least one more person on the team soon. 15:50 <+roasbeef> heh, but only really has dev activity started to move towards the horizon of solved problems, or understanding the system well enough to see where the kinks are (sure some where prescient thinkers but ideas take time to permeate) 15:50 <+roasbeef> ianthius: none of this stuff is really yet read "for the masses", key management sucks, education sucks, UX sucks 15:50 <+roasbeef> cycles happen, hype goes up and down, ppl working on the tech keep toiling in the face of it all 15:51 < ianthius> roasbeef: i know, but a decade is a long time :) 15:51 <+roasbeef> welp pull up a chair 15:51 < doxxy> I mean, it makes sense, right? First Blockstream and Core had to pull off the coup and oust the developers that Satoshi placed in charge. Then they had to force segwit into the code. I mean, shit takes time guyz. 15:51 < rusty> Tridge once described research coding as like steering an icebreaker, and you only find out that you're finished once you're there. 15:52 < aj> that seems like it overestimates how familiar people are with steering icebreakers? 15:52 <+roasbeef> maybe the world imploads in 5 years, who knows 15:53 < rusty> aj: the idea that you can only work on the thing immediately in front of you. Of course, he's an Australian too, so no doubt we all have NFI whether this analogy applies. 15:53 <+roasbeef> rusty: yeh there's kinda of a "leadership vacuum" that ppl perceive *must* be filled, so they go looking for loud voices, no matter their integrity 15:53 < ianthius> roasbeef: i will pull up a chair soon! i have a pretty short term plan that should get me pretty involved relatively soon. Been in this space as an observer since 2011, but full time at 'another gig' the whole time. That all ends soon hopefully. 15:53 <+roasbeef> speaking generally in cryptocurrencies 15:53 * roasbeef pats his iceberg 15:53 < aj> rusty: maybe i'll read it as "driving in a dust storm" then 15:54 <+roasbeef> well if all the polar caps are melting, WHO WILL MAKE THE ICEBERGS!? 15:54 < doxxy> probably my ex, she's cold as they get 15:54 * aj notifies slashdot: "global warming predicted to make research coding easier" 15:54 <+roasbeef> yeh i can't think when i'm cold personally 15:55 < rusty> Note to self: I had the feeling I'd made a terrible mistake when all the LN developers started researching geoengineering... 15:56 < doxxy> Its the logical next step for Blockstream on the pathway to world domination. I doubt if even Jihan Wu can save us now. 15:57 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 16:01 -!- jbarz [63f25582@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.242.85.130] has joined #lightning-dev 16:01 < doxxy> rusty: did u get a sticker yet? 16:02 <+roasbeef> he is the sticker 16:02 < rusty> Hmm, I've been tempted to run a node perm under valgrind, maybe that's what I should use it for... 16:03 < doxxy> You can't go wrong with the sticker, and it helps support Blockstream so our deaths will be quick and painless when they come to power. 16:03 < rusty> doxxy: Dude, I work for Blockstream. Pretty sure I can guarantee a quick and painless death already. 16:04 * roasbeef whispers execute order 66 16:04 < ianthius> doxxy: you know they are making a killing on those stickers! i ordered 3 and only got 1! They must be making millions. /s 16:05 < doxxy> It wouldn't surprise me. I'm honestly surprised the stickers aren't just vapor. 16:06 -!- almkglor [b4be2ebc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.190.46.188] has joined #lightning-dev 16:06 < doxxy> Anybody want to tell me the fix for the HTLC too low error? Am I correct in assuming that's a lnd fault? 16:06 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07 <+roasbeef> doxxy: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/779 16:08 -!- icota [~igor@cm-2230.cable.globalnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:08 < doxxy> ugh, so I wait. 16:10 < doxxy> guess I'll go water my garden 16:10 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 16:12 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has quit [] 16:14 < ianthius> doxxy: they were a bit smaller than I was expecting. But, no, they are real. The shirts are nice :) 16:15 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:15 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 16:18 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:21 -!- lxer [~lx@ip5f5bd657.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:29 -!- kunla [~kunla@81.193.53.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:31 -!- delta__ [~none@103.254.153.99] has joined #lightning-dev 16:31 -!- HFRadical [~none@103.254.153.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31 -!- delta__ [~none@103.254.153.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 17:43 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has joined #lightning-dev 18:26 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:27 < nirved> assuming all block space is used for funding/closing LN txes, and average channel live is one year, only 118 million channels can exist 18:28 < nirved> a "well connected" network would have 11 channels per node, giving ~10 million nodes 18:34 -!- Osso [~osso@162-225-190-212.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev 18:35 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:38 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04 -!- lndbot [~lndbot@138.197.213.35] has joined #lightning-dev 19:05 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10 -!- ralphtheninja [~lms@c-1ea8d954.501802061703-0-757473696b74.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21 -!- Osso [~osso@162-225-190-212.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42 -!- almkglor [b4be2ebc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.190.46.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05 -!- douglas_ is now known as dougsland 21:05 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:05 -!- dougsland [~douglas@tchelinux/moderator/dougsland] has joined #lightning-dev 22:08 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@50-0-95-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:28 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@ip72-209-228-50.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@ip72-209-228-50.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:41 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:03 -!- dougsland [~douglas@tchelinux/moderator/dougsland] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14 -!- almkglor [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has joined #lightning-dev 23:15 < almkglor> @nirved true, hence channel factories, which hopefully will allow a 10x further boost in scaling 23:16 < almkglor> still LN seems like it will scale from 10x to 1000x of current blockchain-only layer, which is a much better proposition than every other proposition.... 23:17 -!- almkglor [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21 -!- whphhg [~whphhg@unaffiliated/whphhg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27 -!- Mark__ [5bd4cf04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.212.207.4] has joined #lightning-dev 23:34 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]