--- Day changed Thu Mar 08 2018 00:18 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gloedtjuigtxllrf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:18 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 00:19 -!- volition [~volition@27-33-177-17.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 00:36 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@2601:184:417f:5f02:5c6d:5615:1bf5:2f55] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:36 -!- lxer [~lx@ip5f5bd657.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:f3b8:cb41:7595:463f] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:18 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:18 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 01:30 < bitonic-cjp> I have an idea that should be worked out in a BOLT. What would be the best way to go forward? 01:31 < bitonic-cjp> I guess I should first specify WHAT I want and WHY, and then discuss this before filling in the HOW details. Should I make a draft BOLT containing only the WHAT and WHY and make a pull request? 01:33 < bitonic-cjp> Who determines BOLT number assignments? 01:41 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 01:53 < rompert> if you want a low number, ask usain bolt. oh that was such a bad joke. shall i press enter anyhows? yes i'll do it 01:58 < bitonic-cjp> :D 01:59 < bitonic-cjp> Seriously though... 02:02 < rompert> yeah i don't know. sorry. but i'm supercurios what you are up to. keep me posted 02:03 < rompert> especially if it is regarding routing 02:08 < bitonic-cjp> No, I want to make an alternative to BOLT11, to provide better support for different kinds of payments. 02:08 -!- almkglor [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has joined #lightning-dev 02:09 < almkglor> Well BOLT's are frozen now? Although I guess you could queue it for BOLT1.1 02:10 < almkglor> Probably best to ask on the mailinglist, maybe Rusty allocates the numbers for now 02:10 < lxer> bitonic-cjp: what do you mean? like pro-forma invoices and such? 02:11 < almkglor> curiouser and curiouser! sooo hmmm like streaming payments? 02:11 < almkglor> receiver-pays-fees? 02:12 < bitonic-cjp> More like, for instance, payer-initiates-payment, and onion-as-destination. 02:13 -!- Osso [~osso@162-225-190-212.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13 < bitonic-cjp> For instance, salary payment. 02:14 < bitonic-cjp> You don't regularly send invoices to your employer. Your employer regularly initiates payments, and you check afterwards if it's sufficient. 02:14 < almkglor> oh, you mean donation? 02:15 < almkglor> probably best to ask on mailinglist, I think there's already some work on that, you probably want to coordinate with existing work 02:15 < almkglor> (although I think most of the people there are more interested in actually getting their implementations "mainnet-ready" LOL) 02:16 < almkglor> what's "onion-as-destination"? 02:17 < bitonic-cjp> onion-as-destination: you don't know the node ID of the payee, you only receive the onion-encrypted last half of the route from the payee. 02:18 < almkglor> Hmm that could be tied to receiver-pays-fees 02:19 < almkglor> obviously the destination point you select can only receive the stipulated invoice amount 02:19 < bitonic-cjp> BOLT11 already supports "not specifying the amount", which has donations as use case, but sending the BOLT11 info from payee to payer still has to be initiated by payee. 02:19 < almkglor> and the receiver, enjoying the privacy, pays for it 02:19 < bitonic-cjp> An existing BOLT11 code cannot be re-used for multiple payments (like a BTC address). 02:19 < almkglor> no, donations has a more specific meaning in LN discussion I think, it specifically means the case where the payer initiates and the payee can only receive 02:21 < rompert> bitonic-cjp: i want something like that as well. was thinking a workaround via another message to the proposed recipient. like "give me an invoice of X sat" and then you get a regular invoice to pay the normal way. 02:21 < almkglor> possibly without the payee even knowing who the payer is (i.e. anonymity) 02:21 < lxer> LN is invoice-based, and that is for a good reason. However, the payer could request an invoice perhaps 02:22 < almkglor> bitonic-cjp: An existing BOLT11 code cannot be re-used for multiple payments (like a BTC address). -- well yes, can't reuse preimages 02:22 < bitonic-cjp> exactly. 02:22 < almkglor> the alternative is to perform a donation to the payee 02:22 < lxer> So, ther payer requests an invoice, the payee authorised requests from that payer (automatically perhaps), and the payer gets the invoice. 02:22 < almkglor> (which can be done right now by hiding the donation as a fee) 02:23 < bitonic-cjp> So BOLT11 is non-interactive. I propose to make a standardized interactive payment protocol. 02:23 < almkglor> lxer: need to define the protocol too 02:23 < almkglor> not much point to "onion-as-destination" if payer and payee interact...? 02:24 < lxer> bitonic-cjp: whay do you mean by interactive? 02:24 < bitonic-cjp> They could interact over TOR, or locally over Bluetooth or a LAN (Wifi)... 02:24 < almkglor> payer connects to payee, performs something other than make channel 02:24 < almkglor> negotiate routing paths, fees to which side, etc. 02:25 < almkglor> For larger networks we need interactivity.... 02:25 < almkglor> so perhaps payer and payee have like their own routemaps 02:25 < almkglor> they negotiate a common set of nodes that both of them know 02:26 < almkglor> and agree to split up fees: payer pays for fees up to a common node, payee pays for fees from the common node 02:26 < lxer> payer->request Invoice from payee -> payee sends invoice -> payer confirms and pays invoice. 02:26 < lxer> No need for routing negotion at first. 02:26 < bitonic-cjp> It sounds like it cuts the routing problem in half, or maybe takes the square root of it (haven't done the math yet) 02:26 < almkglor> I suppose ^^ 02:28 < lxer> but there is a risk if it is done automatically, because the *amount* is then specified by the receiver. that could be abused easily 02:28 < almkglor> quarters I think 02:28 < almkglor> bitonic-cjp: it cuts the routing problem in 1/4 I think 02:29 < bitonic-cjp> Why? 02:29 < almkglor> hmmm well depends on how you model the LN network... if it's 2d it'll cut by 1/4 02:29 < bitonic-cjp> Thanks for the feed-back. I'm going to write a half-baked proposal with a rationale, put it on my own repository on Github, and ask feed-back through the mailing list. 02:30 < almkglor> you only need 1/4 of nodes on the network to have a good chance of getting a common node with another node with 1/4 of nodes on the network 02:31 < lxer> bitonic-cjp: make it 2. it sounds like 2 different things to me 02:31 < rompert> don't overcomplicate things with throwing too much into the same thing. i would be totally happy with being able to send "send me an invoice of 1234 sat for your weekly salary and some secret code" and i'll get back an invoice for 1234 sat and pay it. if i need to make more channels it is a separate issue 02:31 < lxer> ^^ that 02:32 < rompert> and i'll be responsible of checking that the secret code is the same and only used once before paying :) 02:32 < lxer> yes. and the amount should match 02:32 < bitonic-cjp> I think we should first agree to want an interactive protocol. Make a simple minimum spec, and a mechanism for adding optional features. 02:32 < rompert> or maybe don't even need that secret code since i probably know my employees i sent the requests to :) 02:32 < almkglor> payee is the one who needs to check the secret code is unique 02:33 < almkglor> well if secret code == preimage hmmmmmm 02:33 < lxer> bitonic-cjp: I dont understand what you mean by interactive protocol. All protocols are interactive afaik 02:33 < rompert> nah forget the secret code... if someone asks you to send them an invoice, just do it :) 02:33 < almkglor> BOLT11 is very minimally interactive 02:34 < almkglor> you get an invoice somehow, then try routes until it succeeds or you get pissed off 02:34 < rompert> it could be abused if you ask someone "send me an invoice for some illegal drugs" and your node just does it and you get instant jailtime 02:34 < bitonic-cjp> BOLT11 us unidirectional. I mean: information flow in both directions, possibly several times. 02:34 < almkglor> probably bitonic-cjp wants to have more than just a one-time send of invoice and a one-time successful send of money 02:35 < almkglor> so e.g. streaming of payments (for music/video/other media) 02:35 < bitonic-cjp> rompert: just add to the description "This description was supplied by payer, and processed in an automated process:" 02:35 < lxer> bitonic-cjp: not really. it is onvoice based, that is the starting point. 02:35 < lxer> *invoice 02:38 < almkglor> so yeah, at the minimum a way to transfer invoices at high speed would be good. 02:39 < almkglor> an optimization is that invoices are currently signed 02:39 < almkglor> but if you have an end-to-end encrypted channel 02:39 < almkglor> you can just not send the signature of the invoice 02:40 < almkglor> presumably the only way the other side could send a message you can decrypt is if they have access to their private keys 02:40 < almkglor> so you can simply use that fact 02:40 < almkglor> forget the signatures, the only one who can talk to you via that direct connection is the counterparty who is receiving the money 02:44 < lxer> an issue might be how to prevent spam, like sending millions of invoice-requests to everyone. 02:51 < bitonic-cjp> Proof of Work? That was originally invented as an anti-spam measure, after all. 02:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-55-109.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 02:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-55-109.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 02:56 < lxer> it would be weird to pay for requesting an invoice. 02:57 < lxer> Perhaps temporarily locking the amount? but I dont know how/if that could work technically 03:04 < rompert> would be awesome if you could lock the amount in all channels on the way to the recipient, effectively sending everything all the way, and then magically get an invoice to actually release it with a final key or something... just thinking out loud 03:04 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-61-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 03:09 -!- someone_ [7da1826e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.125.161.130.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-61-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20 -!- almkglor [9258463b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.146.88.70.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 03:30 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl13-61-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 03:37 < bitonic-cjp> You first need to get a payment hash (or equivalent) from the payee before you can lock any funds. 03:40 < rompert> yeah. need to add some magic. come on guys, you can do it! :) 03:44 < bitonic-cjp> Time travel will solve everything, and completely mess up everything too. 04:08 -!- volition [~volition@27-33-177-17.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 04:38 < rompert> please travel back in time and remove that statement 04:50 < oksa> cd Docu 04:50 < oksa> ls 04:50 < oksa> touch kirjurointi 04:50 < oksa> vim kir 04:52 < oksa> projektisuunnitelma kirjoitetaan itsellemme, mutta myös yritykselle. Sen olisi hyvä olla eksakti, koska se on periaatteessa lupaus siitä, mitä tullaan tekemään. 04:52 -!- dx25 [~dx25@174-19-89-235.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:55 < oksa> Virallisemmissa asiakirjoissa pitää käyttää yritysten kokonaisia nimiä, esim. Futurice OY. Dokumenteissa olisi hyvä myös kuvailla, että minkälainen yritys kyseessä. Työsuunnitelman rivien väleistä pystyi lukemaan, että kyseessä on ohjelmistoyritys, mutta sitä ei missään kohtaa varsinaisesti mainittu. Voi käyttää ihan hyvin yritysten omilta sivuilta löytyviä kuvauksia. 04:58 < oksa> Kirjoituksessa kannattaa olla tarkkana. Jos kirjoitetaan Suomeksi, tulisi hyödyntää oikeita suomen kielen sanoja. esim 'impakti' => 'vaikutus'. Työssä myös käytettiin passiivimuotoa silloin, kuin muu muoto olisi ollut selkeämpi. Esimerkiksi chilicorn fund perustettiin, ilman että eksplisiittisesti mainitaan, kuka sen perusti 04:58 < oksa> Virallisemmissa asiakirjoissa pitää käyttää yritysten kokonaisia nimiä, esim. Futurice OY. Dokumenteissa olisi hyvä myös kuvailla, että minkälainen yritys kyseessä. Työsuunnitelman rivien väleistä pystyi lukemaan, että kyseessä on ohjelmistoyritys, mutta sitä ei missään kohtaa varsinaisesti mainittu. Voi käyttää ihan hyvin yritysten omilta sivuilta löytyviä kuvauksia.'' 04:59 < oksa> . Tämmöiset tulisi luonnollisestikkin aina avata.w 04:59 < oksa> w 05:00 < oksa> SECI-mallia ei ole avattu lainkaan. 05:03 < oksa> ... Accidental paste with new terminal emulator. Sorry for spam 05:14 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:23 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 05:23 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 05:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-232-36.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 05:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-232-36.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 05:38 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:41 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:44 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 05:52 -!- dx25 [~dx25@174-19-89-235.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:05 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@2601:184:417f:5f02:5c6d:5615:1bf5:2f55] has joined #lightning-dev 06:14 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:15 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@080-250-077-186-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:15 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-179-193-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 06:30 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30 -!- amp__ [~amp@24.136.5.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:31 -!- Amperture [~amp@24.136.5.183] has joined #lightning-dev 06:35 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@158.106.219.26] has joined #lightning-dev 06:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 06:54 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@158.106.219.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@158.106.219.26] has joined #lightning-dev 07:04 -!- eklitzke [~evan@fsf/member/eck] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:10 -!- eklitzke [~evan@fsf/member/eck] has joined #lightning-dev 07:17 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sejfgzdcixgjsvgw] has joined #lightning-dev 07:34 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-xvlejkwbpngpzqhr] has joined #lightning-dev 07:37 < bitonic-cjp> https://github.com/bitonic-cjp/lightning-rfc/blob/payment-protocol/12-payment-protocol.md 07:37 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-piombroahzhjbsjj] has joined #lightning-dev 07:40 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-xvlejkwbpngpzqhr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:43 -!- shesek [~shesek@141.226.150.230] has joined #lightning-dev 07:43 -!- shesek [~shesek@141.226.150.230] has quit [Changing host] 07:43 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 07:48 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has joined #lightning-dev 08:20 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:32 -!- Osso [~osso@2600:1700:37a0:1060:f133:3b00:19bf:92d7] has joined #lightning-dev 08:55 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:10 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sejfgzdcixgjsvgw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:01 < cdecker> Vittu :-) 10:02 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 10:06 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #lightning-dev 10:40 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has joined #lightning-dev 11:58 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has joined #lightning-dev 12:39 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined 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