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Connection reset by peer] 05:56 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 05:57 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:00 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01 -!- ShotokanZH [~ShotokanZ@unaffiliated/shotokanzh] has joined #lightning-dev 06:01 < ShotokanZH> hi evryone! 06:01 -!- savil [savilmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-parloisasuwmlasn] has joined #lightning-dev 06:01 < ShotokanZH> is it necessary for a lightning node to have open ports? 06:02 < ShotokanZH> (8333 and 9735) 06:02 < ShotokanZH> and is it somehow useful to connect to another node without funding the channel? (so it just gossips?) 06:08 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 06:08 -!- A_D19 [~A_D@121.160.186.178] has joined #lightning-dev 06:09 -!- A_D19 [~A_D@121.160.186.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 06:15 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15 -!- wfranken [~wfranken@199-195-148-86.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:16 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:16 -!- wfranken [~wfranken@199-195-148-86.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:27 < jl2012> cdecker, roasbeef: I'm reading the eltoo paper. I think you can make the script smaller 06:28 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:29 < jl2012> first, if you are doing 2-of-2 multisig, the most compact way is Ka OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY Kb OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY. It saves you 1 byte in the script, and save the dummy zero in spending 06:30 < jl2012> You can save 1 more byte by moving the last OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY after the OP_ENDIF 06:31 < jl2012> but with Schnorr and taproot, I assume you will just use key aggregation and MAST? 06:32 -!- KousakaHonoka[m] [kousakahon@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-frfqaigywmaefcxy] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 -!- rrol[m] [rrolmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rlmrllrbzzuyptpt] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 -!- interfect[m] [interfectm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-esouktrwvcbqlgnw] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 -!- pierce[m] [x43matrixo@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-iikofrhbcvttyyvt] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 -!- JoKe[m] [jokesharek@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-olnjmypcnxncvrxm] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 06:33 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 06:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 06:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 06:49 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has joined #lightning-dev 06:49 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:49 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has joined #lightning-dev 07:04 < shesek> ShotokanZH, its only necessary if you want to accept incoming connections, you can establish outgoing connections without it 07:04 < shesek> and yes, connecting without opening a channel is useful for gossiping 07:22 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:30 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 07:35 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev 07:35 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Changing host] 07:35 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #lightning-dev 07:52 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 07:58 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has quit [] 07:59 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has joined #lightning-dev 08:24 -!- Mercster [~Mercster@60-242-24-104.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 08:29 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:29 -!- Mercster [~Mercster@60-242-24-104.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 09:18 -!- BenLand100 [~BenLand10@201.210.167.234] has joined #lightning-dev 09:21 -!- BenLand100 [~BenLand10@201.210.167.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 09:38 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42 -!- ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-toovanmwquwqkhdg] has joined #lightning-dev 09:47 -!- labviking [~labviking@222.182.121.125] has joined #lightning-dev 09:49 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has quit [] 09:50 -!- labviking [~labviking@222.182.121.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-wmsjybnffksspfvc] has joined #lightning-dev 10:24 -!- antanst [~antanst@62.169.219.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25 -!- antanst [~antanst@62.169.219.213] has joined #lightning-dev 10:36 -!- CubicEarth [~CubicEart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:42 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has joined #lightning-dev 10:42 -!- iudicium [4addb5e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.221.181.233] has joined #lightning-dev 10:52 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 11:07 -!- armin25 [~armin@2a05:f6c1:6:1138::] has joined #lightning-dev 11:10 -!- armin25 [~armin@2a05:f6c1:6:1138::] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13 -!- grubles_ is now known as grubles 11:14 < molz> "Great atmosphere, great people. The third #Bitcoin #LightningHackday in Berlin has started! " https://twitter.com/davidknezic/status/1035574205008543745 11:15 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:18 -!- itaseski [~itaseski@213.135.177.14] has joined #lightning-dev 11:18 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-54-119.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-54-119.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 11:38 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #lightning-dev 11:40 -!- iudicium [4addb5e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.221.181.233] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.189] has joined #lightning-dev 11:44 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:49 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:56 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.189] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 11:57 -!- doml3_13333337 [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #lightning-dev 11:59 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08 -!- grubles [~grubles@gateway/tor-sasl/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 12:11 -!- ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-toovanmwquwqkhdg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:27 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:58 <+roasbeef> jl2012: with the other upgrades the design can be pretty diff, would bet the deployment timelines are pretty distinct though 12:59 < jl2012> roasbeef: minimum requirement is BIP118? 13:00 <+roasbeef> jl2012: why make the script harder to read by breaking up the multi-sig? will we _reaaally_ care about these two or so bytes? can ofc with any sort of tree based script things like that become less important 13:00 <+roasbeef> yeh just no input 13:00 <+roasbeef> aj had some other modifications to the script as well, but imo they made things more complex at the goal of trying to specialize to a particualr use case iirc? 13:03 < jl2012> roasbeef: actually I'm proposing to remove CHECKMULTISIG in taproot. There are many problems with CMS. One issue is incompatible with batch validation 13:04 < jl2012> MAST should be able to completely replace CMS, and it's more efficient 13:04 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-tuwnaoumefisoxff] has joined #lightning-dev 13:06 <+roasbeef> jl2012: hmmm in favor of just serial n-of-m in a tree if it comes to be? 13:06 < arubi> jl2012, why is it important to explicitly sign the scriptpubkey from the input? 13:06 <+roasbeef> at some point, doesn't the savings not hold up? by convering to a series of regular check sig? 13:06 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-wmsjybnffksspfvc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:07 <+roasbeef> arubi: well it's "looser" if you don't, as then you only care about witness satisfiability 13:07 <+roasbeef> my earlier no input variants signed the script, but cdecker convinced me of the additionally flexibility you can get by _only_ caring about script satisfiability 13:07 < arubi> sorry, not wrt to noinput, but to sighashv2 generally 13:08 < arubi> (at least fwiw that's what's being done) 13:09 < jl2012> roasbeef: you can convert any linear combination of pubkeys into many n-of-n, and build a tree with them 13:09 <+roasbeef> yes in understnad that, but then there's additional overhead 13:09 <+roasbeef> to signal the branches 13:09 <+roasbeef> so is the goal less space or just to remove elements to make a simpler future script? 13:09 <+roasbeef> tho yeh certain parts of CMS are pretty wonky 13:10 -!- doml3_13333337 [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13 < jl2012> both less space and simple script. But yes, it could actually take more space, depends on the parameters 13:14 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:14 < jl2012> arubi: it is suggested by sipa. I think he just want to make things as explicit as possible, and make hardware wallet to know what they are actually signing 13:15 < jl2012> arubi: with taproot, scriptCode could be just a small part of scriptPubKey 13:15 < arubi> I see. it still seems very excessive, given that the outpoint already has the input's txid. it's not going to have any scriptpubkey that we "don't expect" 13:16 < arubi> but maybe I'm overlooking something especially wrt taproot there 13:19 < jl2012> arubi: one example of "unexpected" scriptpubkey is you could tell a HW that it is signing a native-segwit, but actually the UTXO is P2SH-segwit. So the HW will overestimate the fee-rate. (But I'm not sure if I could call this an "attack", because currently no HW would try to calculate the fee-rate) 13:20 < arubi> yea, good point. the hww might think it needs to pay for the p2sh bytes.. 13:20 < arubi> yea that's it. I knew they sign the same data currently but didn't consider the fee issue. thanks 13:21 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 13:22 < arubi> wait you're saying the other way around? 13:22 < jl2012> arubi: both way could cause trouble 13:23 < arubi> true. 13:23 < jl2012> in your way, you pay more fees than needed. in my way, you pay less fees than needed 13:24 < arubi> yea, and it can be amplified if there are multiple inputs that the wallet signs 13:24 < jl2012> arubi: but in real life, no HWW really care about the fee-rate. I'd say this is a rather weak attack. HWWs could just use different BIP32 path to derive different types of scriptPubKey, so they will know what types they are signing 13:25 < arubi> they already try to do that, with different paths for p2sh-segwit, bare, and legacy 13:25 < arubi> at least for segwit paths, I think it's standard. p2sh-multisig might have ambiguity in paths 13:26 < jl2012> arubi: so I don't think this attack would really work....actually I don't have strong opinion on signing scriptPubKey 13:26 < arubi> (with p2pkh paht) 13:26 < arubi> well, you've managed to convince me at least that such an attack might work in very weird cases 13:29 < jl2012> another possible issue is when you reuse the same public key in different taproot branch. You could have the same scriptCode, but different scriptPubKey. Signing scriptPubKey helps HWWs to tell the difference 13:29 -!- marcinja [~marcin@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30 <+roasbeef> lol what's a scriptCode 13:30 <+roasbeef> llets use witness script and witness? 13:30 < jl2012> but again, if they don't reuse public key, and use different BIP32 path for different purposes, such attack won't work 13:30 < arubi> scriptcode is the script being signed in sighash :) 13:30 < arubi> jl2012, yea, so very extreme and non standard cases 13:30 <+roasbeef> just call it the signing script then? 13:31 < arubi> but the bip calls it scriptcode :( 13:31 <+roasbeef> i know but like, feels like we should use higher level names compared to w/e is like a variable name somewhere hidden deep 13:31 < jl2012> Satoshi called in scriptCode 13:31 <+roasbeef> that part of the 141 bip threw me off way back 13:31 < jl2012> called it 13:31 <+roasbeef> in this case, how does it differ from the actual witness script? 13:31 < jl2012> in P2WSH, scriptCode is witnessScript 13:31 <+roasbeef> other than for p2wkh where it's like "injected"? 13:31 <+roasbeef> yeh, so atm only p2wkh is the special case 13:32 < arubi> if you have codeseps, it't no the same script as the full witness script 13:32 < jl2012> in legacy, scriptCode is scriptPubKey 13:32 <+roasbeef> codeseps really aren't a thing any more afaik... 13:32 < arubi> so, if we want codesep usability (do we..?) we have to use scriptcode 13:32 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:32 < jl2012> in P2SH, scriptCode is redeemScript 13:32 < arubi> well they're still "working", but yea, usesless 13:33 < jl2012> and in taproot, scriptCode would be a leaf in the MAST 13:34 <+roasbeef> ok, so this is where you mean that it'll differ depending on what branch is revlead? 13:34 <+roasbeef> reveald* 13:34 < jl2012> yes 13:35 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:36 < jl2012> I think codesep should die in the next script version. Keeping scriptCode a constant means we could cache the sighash much easier 13:36 < arubi> definitely no need to keep it 13:39 < arubi> the only thing it was useful for is being able to sign different execution branches of some linear if\else script with the same pubkey, and really if you need that much flexibility, just use different pubkeys for each branch 13:40 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 13:43 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:44 < jl2012> arubi: using codesep might help saving the space for one pubkey? 13:44 < arubi> yes, it would, but how many folks even use that capability? 13:45 < jl2012> btw, I'm also thinking to remove op_if and its friends 13:45 < arubi> in taproot setting only? 13:45 < jl2012> of course 13:46 < arubi> right, yes I don't see why they're needed then 13:51 -!- marcoagner [~user@156.97.60.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53 -!- drolmer [~SomeUser@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #lightning-dev 13:59 -!- bitconner [~conner@c-67-188-149-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:15 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S010660e327dca171.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.1] 14:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:40 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 14:54 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-tuwnaoumefisoxff] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58 -!- MrPaz [~MrPaz@81.17.18.100] has joined #lightning-dev 15:01 -!- BillSmith4lyfe [BillSmith4@ip72-207-116-245.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02 -!- BillSmith4lyfe [BillSmith4@ip72-207-116-245.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:05 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has quit [] 15:07 -!- BillSmith4lyfe [BillSmith4@ip72-207-116-245.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08 -!- BillSmith4lyfe [BillSmith4@ip72-207-116-245.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:15 -!- dp313 [~dp3@118.41.171.54] has joined #lightning-dev 15:18 -!- dp313 [~dp3@118.41.171.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 15:21 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@bl20-188-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 15:51 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 15:58 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #lightning-dev 16:00 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@bl20-188-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:03 -!- pheizax [~pheizax@201.49.238.148] has joined #lightning-dev 16:07 -!- neo-cool21 [~neo-cool@5.36.123.82.dynamic-dsl-ip.omantel.net.om] has joined #lightning-dev 16:08 -!- pheizax [~pheizax@201.49.238.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12 -!- neo-cool21 [~neo-cool@5.36.123.82.dynamic-dsl-ip.omantel.net.om] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17 -!- valwal [~quassel@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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23:22 < jl2012> roasbeef: with taproot you can build a merkle of scripts, so you don't actually need OP_IF. It provides better privacy and save space 23:22 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:23 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:24 < jl2012> roasbeef: btw, is CHECKSIGFROMSTACK still useful? I think eltoo uses CLTV to replace CSFS? Not in the case of eltoo, but that'd be problematic if you actually need to use nLockTime 23:25 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:25 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:41 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:41 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:45 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:46 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:47 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:48 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:48 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:48 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:50 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:50 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 23:54 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:54 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev