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05:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> What exactly is `min_final_cltv_expiry` ? 
05:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> in BOLT11
05:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> the full description is
05:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> c (24): data_length variable. min_final_cltv_expiry to use for the last HTLC in the route. Default is 9 if not specified.
06:10 < ysangkok> do you recall that when you do a multi-hop payment, the cltv-expiries have to be decreasing along the route?
06:11 < Chris_Stewart_5> yes
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06:17 < Chris_Stewart_5> ysangkok: Finally found what i was looking for :-) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/02-peer-protocol.md#cltv_expiry_delta-selection
06:19 < Chris_Stewart_5> Is it reasonable to type these settings as `uint8` ? 
06:22 < ysangkok> it's 10 bits so why not just use uint16?
06:23 < ysangkok> oh no
06:23 < Chris_Stewart_5> ysangkok: That is the bech32 encoding right? 
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06:24 < Chris_Stewart_5> ysangkok: Looks like it's a u32 in c-lightning https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/50efe34e3b247def991cd6bdd03deee1ce7d1b85/common/bolt11.h#L53
06:24 < ysangkok> the invoice is bech32 encoded yeah
06:25 < ysangkok> the spec says variable size... it's a bit confusing but 'data_length variable' means that the size is specified in those ten bits if i remember correctly
06:27 < Chris_Stewart_5> ysangkok: Yes that sounds right. 
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06:30 < ysangkok> oooh yeah ok so the 52 is because a 256-bit value is 52 characters in bech32. 53 for 33-bytes.
06:33 < ysangkok> so the right type for the cltv field would be an integer that holds 2**1024... but you won't encounter this anyway so probably just choose something reasonable like c-lightning
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06:40 < Chris_Stewart_5> 2**1024 ?! 
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07:37 < ysangkok> sorry, 2 to the power of 10 minus 1.
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07:39 < ysangkok> 1023, larger than a uint8!
07:42 < ysangkok> so i guess the max number that the datatype must express is 2**(1023*5)
07:42 < ysangkok> minus one :P
07:44 < ysangkok> i am just trying to calculate the largest  integer that can be expressed with the max data_length (which is a 10 bit field)
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07:48 < ysangkok> my point is that even a uint32 for the cltv_expiry isn't spec conformant, since that can hold only 2**32-1. that would have been correct if data-length is two bits (since the largest unsigned integer you can encode with two bits is three, and a uint32 would store all integers that can be stored in three bytes), but since data_length is 10 bits, an uint32 won't suffice
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07:49 < ysangkok> oh in this example i forgot the multiplication by five. but the logic is analogous
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13:53 <+roasbeef> Chris_Stewart_5: it's the delta from the current height that the final htlc extended to the reciever shoudl have, so min_final+current_height=htlc_expiry 
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18:38 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] niftynei opened pull request #484: BOLT 2: readability edits (master...bolt-2-reading-edits) https://git.io/fAdOV
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18:53 < niftynei> does anyone have any ideas of places to look for a better understanding of how the 'Normal Operation' of commitment transactions work? 
18:54 < niftynei> i've read thru the section in BOLT02 but i'm not sure i totally grok how add_htlc, commit, revoke_and_ack interact 
18:54 < niftynei> maybe it'll be clearer after i get through the rest of the BOLTs?
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18:56 < niftynei> here's to hoping anyway lol
19:04 < grubles> let me know if you find anything :-)
19:07 <+roasbeef> niftynei: yeh that's prob one of the things that could use a state machien diagram and a bit more detail 
19:07 <+roasbeef> which parts aren't quite clear to you atm? (re the commitment dance) 
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20:37 < alan8325> Hello
20:38 < alan8325> what does "Can't send commit: nothing to send" mean?
20:39 < niftynei> mm let me get back to you on that. i'm having trouble even articulating what about it isn't very clear.
20:41 < niftynei> there's some amount of underlying framing of the problem that the BOLT is missing. like, there's a mention of 'incoming' and 'outgoing' HTLCs, which when you think about it lends to a better picture of how HTLCs move through channels, but the BOLT itself doesn't really draw that picture for you
20:41 < niftynei> i'm  not sure the BOLT is the right place for that construction though
20:42 < niftynei> Hello alan8325! what client are you using?
20:43 < alan8325> I'm using HexChat.
20:43 < alan8325> Oh for lightning i'm using c-lightning!
20:44 < alan8325> I'm trying to figure out whether I'm earning any routing fees
20:45 < niftynei> hmm i'm not sure how to do that, but someone in #c-lightning might be able to help you out
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20:45 < alan8325> Thanks
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21:04 <+roasbeef> niftynei: hmm, yeh tehre's a bit of a gap there, the incoming and outgoing are relative. so incmoing is things you're trying to forward thru, and outgoing is things i'm trying to send out 
21:04 <+roasbeef> if we have a direct channel and I send you a payment, then after i send the add, and the sig, i'm commiting to a single outgoing HTLC, but for you taht's an incoming HTLC 
21:05 <+roasbeef> this matters as the scripts are diff depending on which direction the HTLC is flowing in 
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21:32 < mol> not sure how these people can understand BOLTs without getting their hands into practicing and using the software
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21:48 < alan8325> I haven't used LND, but are you able to send a payment to your own invoice on the same node, designating the sending and receiving channels, for the purpose of rebalancing?
21:49 < alan8325> c-lightning doesn't allow paying yourself on the same node.
21:50 < buZz> rebalancing what exactly?
21:51 < alan8325> balancing the channels
21:51 < buZz> so not your balance?
21:52 < buZz> afaik there's no need to rebalance channels perse, as long as your wallet has enough funds
21:59 < mol> yea crazy people want to "rebalance their channels" so lnd devs created "sendtoroute" :)
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22:11 < buZz> ah
22:11 < buZz> there ya go :)
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 22 00:00:16 2018