--- Log opened Fri Sep 28 00:00:03 2018
--- Day changed Fri Sep 28 2018
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15:21 < niftynei> is it weird that `htlc_minimum_msat` is negotiated in `open_channel` but `htlc_maximum_msat` is set by each node in its channel_update? 
15:21 < niftynei> re: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/465
15:23 < niftynei> it feels inconsistent in that id doesn't give the other node an opportunity to fail the channel if it thinks the max is too big, but it does provide that opportunity for the minimum acceptable htlc value
15:24 < niftynei> :s/id/it
15:28 <+roasbeef> niftynei: fail the channel as in force close? 
15:29 <+roasbeef> ideally all those link level flow control params can also be dynamically updated 
15:29 < wpaulino> fail the negotiation i would think
15:29 <+roasbeef> when opening a channel?
15:30 <+roasbeef> you can always do that, and send an error with the pending chan id 
15:30 < wpaulino> well i don't what they're referring to is that because it's not exposed in the negotiation, you can't really do that until teh channel is open
15:30 < wpaulino> s/don't/think
15:30 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] niftynei opened pull request #485: gossip: 'discard' -> 'fail' (master...use-consistent-term-for-channel-failure) https://git.io/fxvSn
15:31 <+roasbeef> the max htlc size? 
15:31 < wpaulino> yeah
15:31 <+roasbeef> there is a max htlc size, there's max in flight 
15:31 <+roasbeef> but that's cummulative 
15:31 < wpaulino> niftynei: fwiw max htlc  was introduced later on (pretty recent actually)
15:31 <+roasbeef> so the remote side would need to set their max htlc with that in mind as well 
15:31 <+roasbeef> otherwise it violates the contraints 
15:32 <+roasbeef> so the value you can set for the chanenl update, must use the max in flight as a ceiling 
15:33 < niftynei> by 'give the other node an opportunity to fail the channel' i meant during the `open_channel` phase
15:34 < niftynei> which is a 'lighter weight' time to fail since the funding transaction hasn't been created yet
15:34 < niftynei> the htlc_max_msat is supposed to be static too, but you don't find out what the other side's planning on setting for max_htlc until you get their channel_update
15:35 < niftynei> which ostensibly would be after the funding txn's been committed
15:37 < molz> there's a max in flight htlc and a max payment htlc for each payment
15:37 <+roasbeef> well it's contratined by the max in flight value that you sent
15:38 <+roasbeef> since they can send a new update out, they can modify it as long as it's below the max in flight negotiated before 
15:39 < niftynei> can modify it, but per 07 it looks like it's meant not to change 
15:40 <+roasbeef> it recomemnds not changing so ppl don't use it for like spammy things, like updating each time they get a payment 
15:40 <+roasbeef> ideally it's static-ish tho
15:40 < niftynei> mostly i'm commenting on the fact that if, for some reason, your channel peer had some incredibly wonky `htlc_maximum_msat` set, you wouldnt' find out til the channel had been opened
15:40 < niftynei> versus if they've got some crazy `htlc_minimum_msat` in mind, you'd find out at `open_channel`
15:40 <+roasbeef> yeh i get what you're saying, but you know the max limit of it 
15:41 <+roasbeef> and it doesn't affect you, as ths' being forwarded into their direction 
15:41 <+roasbeef> agree they aren't totally consistent, and channel update values have interplay with the link level constraints between channels peers 
15:42 <+roasbeef> in this case imo, you know the range of channel updates they can "sanely" set, if they set a larger one then you won't be happy about that, but they can always just violate the constraints willy nilly there 
15:42 <+roasbeef> in generaly i think the fail language is too strong, atm we never just close a channel other than invalid sigs for the most part, as in the past other impls would fail on fee updates that caused synchronized channel closures network wide 
15:47 < niftynei> gotcha, yeah that's a good point about the per htlc-max being bounded by other 'negotiated' values. i hadn't thought about that
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15:56 < molz> niftynei, i'm confused about what you said here: <niftynei> versus if they've got some crazy `htlc_minimum_msat` in mind, you'd find out at `open_channel`
15:57 < molz> if that's what it is then c-lightning nodes must be crazy :P 
16:00 <+roasbeef> see the last msg molz 
16:08 < molz> roasbeef, yea but isn't 1mSAT the only minimum htlc a node can set? there's nothing else that can be lower than that?
16:08 < niftynei>  <niftynei> is it weird that `htlc_minimum_msat` is negotiated in `open_channel` but `htlc_maximum_msat` is set by each node in its channel_update? 
16:13 < niftynei> they're first communicated to your channel peer at different points: htlc_min in `open_channel`, htlc_max in `channel_update`
16:15 < niftynei> but it doesn't really matter to the peer what the `htlc_max` is for a payment. the real audience for it is nodes trying to do route finding
16:15 < molz> right
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 29 00:00:22 2018