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[~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 06:21 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 06:23 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:26 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:37 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46 < fiatjaf> what happens if you send an HTLC to a peer and it never responds 06:46 < fiatjaf> ? 06:47 < fiatjaf> you lose your HTLC forever? you're forced to settle that HTLC on-chain? 06:47 < fiatjaf> even if it is 1 satoshi? 06:56 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:3ca6:9fb9:2e23:4e12] has quit [Killed (sinisalo.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 06:56 < ysangkok> when you send an htlc, you also send commitment_signed. if the remote party never revoke_and_ack's, they will never commit to adding that htlc. and since you only commit to the htlc after they commit, you will never commit to it either, since they are unresponsive 06:56 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:3ca6:9fb9:2e23:4e12] has joined #lightning-dev 06:57 < ysangkok> besides, if the htlc ever was going to get added, and goes on chain, it will be redeemable by the sender after the timeout 06:58 < ysangkok> if the htlc is below the dust limit, it will be included in to_local and to_remote, and won't be a separate output 06:59 < ysangkok> so no, the money isn't lost 07:00 < fiatjaf> ysangkok, but if the htlc has value of dust-limit + 1 satoshi 07:01 < fiatjaf> that's a lot of money lost, right? 07:01 < ysangkok> why do you think it is lost? 07:01 < fiatjaf> you have to pay the transaction cost 07:01 < fiatjaf> and it may be huge in comparison with the htlc value 07:01 < fiatjaf> when you say it is included in the to_local/to_remote you mean it is not a separate transaction? 07:02 < fiatjaf> most of lightning transactions have amounts that are below (or very near) the dust limit, right? 07:02 < ysangkok> i mean it is not a separate output 07:04 < fiatjaf> sorry if I'm misunderstanding everything 07:04 < fiatjaf> if they're not a separate output how can they be an HTLC? 07:04 < fiatjaf> they're just included in the state update, without hashlocks of any kind 07:05 < fiatjaf> ? 07:05 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 07:05 < ysangkok> well technically it isn't an htlc since it is not locked by a hash. the point of the dust limit is that there is no point in creating an extra output for small amounts, because the fees will be too large in relation. but you can still do a lightning transaction since it just requires the two parties to agree on some new transaction. the htlc is just a mechanism to allow for the funds to be in this 07:06 < ysangkok> intermediate state where they belong to neither 07:06 < fiatjaf> but they need to be in that state while the payment is being routed, right? 07:07 < ysangkok> yeah sure, if the htlc is not dust, there will be an output for the htlc 07:07 < fiatjaf> but if it is dust then what happens if some node cheats along the way? 07:07 < fiatjaf> I mean not forwards the payment 07:08 < fiatjaf> if it works for dust, why can't all transactions, including non-dust, be handled the same? 07:14 < ysangkok> well it makes sense for dust because the value is so small that the value of having the working channel is going to be higher than the value of the transfer 07:15 < ysangkok> so lets say A wants to send money to C over B 07:15 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:3ca6:9fb9:2e23:4e12] has quit [Killed (niven.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 07:15 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:3ca6:9fb9:2e23:4e12] has joined #lightning-dev 07:15 < ysangkok> but the money is dust in both the ctx'es of A and B 07:16 < ysangkok> the htlc will be added, and then added to the ctx'es of B and C 07:16 < ysangkok> C will settle, the change will propagate backwards 07:17 < ysangkok> who should cheat, and when? 07:18 < fiatjaf> so, correct me if I'm wrong, but A and B must agree on the commitment transaction before B starts talking to C, right? 07:18 < fiatjaf> so at that point, before B talks to C, B can just stop. 07:19 < fiatjaf> B won't gain anything with that, but it will harm A 07:22 < ysangkok> how is A harmed? he gets the money back after the timeout 07:23 < ysangkok> A and B do not know the preimage since C has not supplied it, since B has not added the htlc 07:24 < ysangkok> ah you mean A is harmed because of the fees? 07:24 < fiatjaf> yes 07:25 < fiatjaf> I mean, if there is an HTLC, because of fees. 07:25 < ysangkok> but B has no incentive to do this 07:25 < fiatjaf> if there isn't an HTLC, then A has already committed to sending the money to B in the commitment transaction. 07:25 < fiatjaf> only if we discount B being a jerk 07:25 < fiatjaf> or B having buggy software/hardware 07:26 < fiatjaf> so there's a layer of trust there 07:26 < fiatjaf> even if it's trust in the incentives 07:26 < fiatjaf> right? 07:27 < ysangkok> yeah i guess. but the value in having a channel trumps all these, i think 07:27 < ysangkok> if A thinks a payment is too small, he can just not pay it :P 07:28 < fiatjaf> and considering the case of multiple HTLCs in-flight. A can send 200 HTLCs and B can then halt them all. 07:28 < fiatjaf> if each HTLC is 100 satoshis and the fee is 50 satoshis 07:28 < fiatjaf> that's a lot of money lost 07:28 < fiatjaf> everything gets worse if we imagine fees getting very very high in the future 07:28 < fiatjaf> (please correct me if I'm speaking bullshit) 07:29 < ysangkok> well i think this is all just speculation. let's worry about pressing concerns 07:29 < ysangkok> lightning 1.1 improves the sweeping a lot because it doesn't require SIGHASH_ALL 07:29 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:30 < ysangkok> again, the money is never lost. if you batch htlcs, you can't lose more than the price of one tx. if fees are high, usage is high, if usage is high, channels are valuable 07:42 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 07:43 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev 07:43 -!- 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Connection reset by peer] 10:30 -!- keer4n_ [~keer4n@132.178.207.4] has joined #lightning-dev 10:32 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:35 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:41 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46 -!- diackca_ [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:46 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@a83-163-77-195.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 10:49 -!- diackca_ [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:57 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:01 -!- diackca_ [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 11:11 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:12 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc123762-trow7-2-0-cust7.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:17 -!- diackca_ [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:42 -!- yaslama [~yaslama@bzq-218-78-150.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@141.226.218.90] has joined #lightning-dev 11:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@141.226.218.90] has quit [Changing host] 11:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 11:46 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev 12:13 < fiatjaf> makes sense 12:13 < fiatjaf> but still 12:14 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@a83-163-77-195.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:35 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:36 <+roasbeef> fiatjaf: you can set a min HTLC valu 12:51 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:35 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:22 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 14:59 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:05 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08 -!- keymone [~keymone@ip1f10c1a7.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:09 -!- keymone [~keymone@ip1f10c1a7.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #lightning-dev 15:28 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:41 -!- ratonlaveur [~ratonlave@132.205.230.5] has joined #lightning-dev 15:43 -!- diackca [~abdoulaye@41-184-172-161.rv.ipnxtelecoms.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: kurimotokenichi] 16:19 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 16:37 -!- gelmutshmidt [~gelmutshm@188.113.24.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: kurimotokenichi] 17:16 -!- ratonlaveur [~ratonlave@132.205.230.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:23 < fiatjaf> that also makes sense 17:31 -!- ratonlaveur [~ratonlave@132.205.230.5] has joined #lightning-dev 17:33 <+roasbeef> fiatjaf: market forces will sort it out in the end, some nodes will choose to have higher values, while others have lower min values to scoop of the fees for smaller micropayments 17:33 -!- kurimotokenichi [~kurimotok@61-22-146-195.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 17:42 < lndbot> It is incentive based, it’s like the miners could choose to stop mining if they wanted to and the network would slow down, but there would be other people able to mine in their place and life would go on 17:48 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 17:50 -!- 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Anywhere.] --- Log closed Tue Jan 29 00:00:34 2019