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12:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> Does the commitment signed message "clear" the number of resolved htlcs and rebalance `to_remote` and `to_local`?
12:57 < bitconner> Chris_Stewart_5, depends on what messages are sent before it and who sent the commitment signed
12:59 < bitconner> the htlcs are really only cleared once revoke and ack as been received
12:59 < Chris_Stewart_5> bitconner: Are you referring to if htlcs have been added/fulfilled? 
12:59 < bitconner> yes
12:59 < Chris_Stewart_5> Gotcha, I think i understand that part but the part that was confusing me about BOLT2 is when they are cleared. The altnerative would be a ever growing commitment tx :S 
13:02 < bitconner> fwiw the balance never shifts directly from to_remote to to_local, adding the htlc would cause the balance to decrement from to_remote, but then we have a transient htlc output
13:02 < bitconner> once the htlc output has been settled, commit signed, revoked and ack, then it ends up in local_balance
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16:22 < shesek> cdecker, but dev-listaddrs appears to be available even without DEVELOPER=1?
16:22 < shesek> or maybe I'm confused, let me check that again
16:24 < rusty> shesek: you're right!
16:25 < rusty> Forgot to wrap that in #if DEVELOPER.
16:26 < rusty> shesek: BTW, 0.7 is bringing some RPC changes.  You might be particularly interested in `paystatus` which shows the gory details of what happened/is happening to a payment, and `listpays` (TBA) which gives a simply summary of each payment.
16:26 < rusty> shesek: and we're going for msat everywhere for amounts (not removing old fields, yet).  But existing amount field can have 'sat', 'btc', 'msat' appended for extra safety.
16:27 < rusty> (ie. when you send c-lightning a JSON command)
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19:38 < shesek> rusty, thanks for the information! how is listpays different from listpayments?
19:39 < rusty> shesek: it's a bit more condensed, will have bolt11 as index, and more importantly, listpayments will get more complex when we do multi-part payments.
19:40 < rusty> (Unf. we don't save bolt11 strings until now, so older payments will just fall back to destination/payment_hash/amount)
19:40 < rusty> So in 7.1 lispayments will have new fields and look like multiple entries per payment, which will be v. confusing.
19:42 < shesek> oh, yes, definitely makes sense with amp. the terminology might be a bit confusing though, "pay" vs "payment". but I don't have any better suggestions :)
19:43 < rusty> we'll rename listpayments to listsendpays and make the old name deprecated, too I think.
19:43 < rusty> shesek: now we have plugins, we're going to steer away from some of the higher-level JSON outputs (which a plugin could provide summaries for) and stick with exposing low level info.  So listpays will be actually provided by the pay plugin (not that it matters)
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19:46 < shesek> btw, an unrelated feature request: something that combines both incoming and outgoing payments and supports paging (start index + limit) would be pretty useful in the context of spark. right now the client fetches everything (listpayments+listinvoices) and slices it for paging. with a big wallet history and especially when communicating over hidden services, this could cause some noticeable slowdown
19:46 < shesek> this (and a bunch of other stuff that I want) could definitely be plugins. but I wonder if its reasonable to require spark users to also install plugins on c-lightning
19:47 < rusty> shesek: I think we'll end up with a 'spark' plugin to provide you will a grab bag of featuress?
19:47 < rusty> BTW, the new paystatus should be good for showing WTF is going on, though raw it's a bit of a firehose :)
19:48 < shesek> well, its more generally useful than just for spark so I wouldn't call it that, but yes, that could work
19:48 < rusty> shesek: I think we're vaguely thinking of specific plugins, which can later be generalized, but it's too early to have a plan!
19:51 < rusty> shesek: we do pagination for our wait* APIs, perhaps we should generalize.  I agree it's nicer to have.
19:55 < shesek> paystatus looks very useful! alongside adding that, I should also make the UI not block (with the circling loading animation thing) while sending a payment and instead just return the user to the homepage and let her continue using the wallet while waiting for the payment to complete/fail
19:56 < shesek> are apis moving away to identify payments by their bolt11? I noticed paystatus accepts just the bolt11 and not the payment hash
19:57 < shesek> or the label
19:58 < rusty> shesek: payment hash APIs predate bolt11.  These days, it's all bolt11.  Could add paystatus by hash
19:58 < rusty> shesek: seemed the right move, but you'd know better than me...
19:59 < rusty> shesek: I'm also thinking we should add a description (label?) field for 'pay' so user can annotate payments in a persistent manner.  Or maybe that's a higher-level thing?
20:00 < shesek> I don't have any particular need to identify them by the rhash, but using the label as the unique identifier seems potentially more convenient than using the bolt11
20:00 < shesek> which could get pretty huge, esp with private routes
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20:01 < rusty> shesek: we really need to save it though, since it's proof of purchase (w/ preimage).
20:01 < shesek> rusty, notes for outgoing payments is definitely something I wanted for spark :) it could be a higher-level thing, but I'm trying to keep spark stateless for as long as it makes sense
20:02 < rusty> shesek: OK, will add.  Currently we have a description field which is set to the bolt11 description (well, until pay plugin which doesn't do that any more), so will add an optional 'label' arg to pay, and use that.
20:02 < rusty> (I think label is clearer than description for this maybe, since bolt11 has a description from the payee...)
20:02 < shesek> also, its probably easier to manage/backups if this information is kept internally by c-lightning and not by the GUI layer
20:03 < shesek> so yes, cool :)
20:03 < shesek> another potential thing is "notes for self" vs "notes to payer" when creating an invoice. but that might be asking too much :-)
20:03 < rusty> shesek: agreed.  BTW< note that paystatus is not persistent yet, so a restart means you lose all the gory details.  That seems OK, TBH (listpays will still show payments across restarts)
20:04 < rusty> shesek: heh, you could abuse label for that :)  Prepend a UUID and then put your own notes?
20:04 < rusty> Though we don't have lookup by partial label...
20:04 < shesek> does it have a size limit?
20:04 < rusty> No.  But if you abuse it too badly maybe it should!
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20:05 < shesek> regarding bolt11, I understand that it has to be kept in the db, I was thinking about situations where it would be used as a payment identifier, i.e. for an API to inquire about the status of the payment
20:05 < shesek> for that, rhash/label seems to make more sense
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20:09 < shesek> btw, to simplify the spark client-side layer, I ended up adding two "virtual" rpc commands that are processed by the spark server: "connectfund", which connects and funds a channel in one go, and returns the full information about the channel it created (the info available in listpeers). and "closeget", which closes a channel and returns its update info (again, from listpeers)
20:09 < rusty> shesek: I look fwd to your plugins :)
20:10 < shesek> right. I was thinking of doing this as a plugins at first, but wasn't sure if this would be complicating the setup too much. so I ended up hacking it into the spark server instead.
20:11 < shesek> do you think its reasonable for spark to require c-lightning plugings?
20:11 < rusty> Well, you'll want that for backwards compat anyway, even if you go for plugins.
20:11 < rusty> shesek: I think so; it's probably the easiest part to set up...
20:11 < rusty> shesek: though wait until 0.7 is well-deplyed maybe :)
20:12 < shesek> if you already have nodejs/npm installed and lightning is at ~/.lightning, "npx spark-wallet" is literally all you need to start spark :)
20:14 < shesek> but yes, in the overall bitcoind+lightningd+spark+getting it to work from mobile, enabling a c
20:15 < shesek> ... enabling a plugin is probably the easiest part, yes :)
20:15 < rusty> shesek: particularly if you write it in python or hell, even nodejs (since they need that anyway).  Though cdecker's python lib stuff is pretty awesome.
20:16 <+roasbeef> ~
20:16 < rusty> roasbeef: `?
20:17 <+roasbeef> hacking attempt thwarted....
20:17  * roasbeef retreats into the shadows 
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 21 00:00:55 2019