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Is any of that implemented in practice? 13:14 < jtimon> how does forwarding payments work when going through channels denominated in different currencies? 13:14 < jtimon> I'm guessing what is used for proportional fees is reused here to set a conversion price between the 2 currencies? 13:16 < jtimon> anyway, I'll keep reading... 13:18 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S010660e327dca171.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:19 < molz> jtimon, this channel is bridged to the slack but the bridge bot is not working right now but here's what alex said: 13:19 < molz> alexbosworth [4:16 PM] 13:19 < molz> I don’t think anyone has implemented it or really well defined how it should work 13:21 < molz> The fees define outgoing rate, but with a multicurrency forward you would want to have 1 rate for incoming from LTC and another rate for incoming from BTC 13:22 < bitconner> cross-currency LN payments and atomic swaps i'm pretty sure have both been done b4 :) 13:26 -!- scoop [~scoop@50-77-133-26-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:31 < jtimon> thanks, I guess I can join the slack, do you have a link? 13:33 < jtimon> I know atomic swaps and I've read something about submarine swaps too, but it's not really trading that I'm after. I'm interested in extending LN to support "transitive payments" with multiple assets/currencies (aka ripple-like payments) 13:35 < bitconner> it's the same thing, just w/ a sawp the sender and receiver are the same entity 13:36 < bitconner> not sure what is meant by ripple-like payments 13:36 < jtimon> more specifically, I want to make it compatible with chains created with elements, which can also have multiple assets within each chain 13:37 < bitconner> if you want to go from btc to some-elements-asset, there as long as one of the intermedaries has channels on both btc and elements then it should work 13:38 < jtimon> perhaps an example helps, say we have channel A denominated in Acoin between Alice and Bob, a channel B denominated in Bitcoin between Bob and Charlie and a channel C denominated in seacoin between Charlie and Daniel. Alice wants to pay Daniel atomically with a LN payment. She pays in acoin, but Daniel receives seacoin 13:40 < bitconner> yes i understand, we're on the same page :) what's your question? 13:40 < molz> jtimon, here's the link to join lnd slack: https://join.slack.com/t/lightningcommunity/shared_invite/enQtMzQ0OTQyNjE5NjU1LWRiMGNmOTZiNzU0MTVmYzc1ZGFkZTUyNzUwOGJjMjYwNWRkNWQzZWE3MTkwZjdjZGE5ZGNiNGVkMzI2MDU4ZTE 13:40 < molz> whoa.. sorry that link is so ugly.. haha 13:40 < jtimon> bitconner: great. the question is if this is implemented already and how does the conversion between channels work, how prices are set and when 13:41 < aj> jtimon: establishing a route between AB BC and CD isn't easy; you need to merge the three gossip networks 13:42 < jtimon> molz: no wirries, it works 13:42 < bitconner> there's no formal approach to how prices are set, or even how they'd be communicated to the sender to construct a proper route 13:42 < molz> 👍 13:42 -!- scoop [~scoop@50-77-133-26-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43 < bitconner> simplest is probably just an API and then the sender can query to get the latest rates, and the forwarding node rejects HTLCs that aren't within some tolerance 13:43 < jtimon> aj: oh, I was assuming there was only one gossip network, but people simply ignored announcements about chains they don't care about. I guess that makes them different networks in practice 13:43 < jtimon> bitconner: sounds reasonable 13:45 -!- scoop [~scoop@50-77-133-26-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:45 < bitconner> my point earlier was that, assuming some price discovery/distribution mechanism, the mechanic is the same as a swap except the endpoints are different 13:47 < jtimon> for the price, I guess Bob establishes the AB rate and charlie de BC rate, just like they establish the fees they charge for routing through them 13:47 -!- rachelfish [~rachel@unaffiliated/itsrachelfish] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48 < jtimon> but I was thinking of a version of atomic swaps not involving LN channels or the LN network at all, basically I was thinking about this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contract#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains 13:51 -!- scoop [~scoop@50-77-133-26-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:53 < jtimon> now on slack, not sure where I should continue the discussion... 13:54 < bitconner> long as the timelocks are properly set, don't see why that wouldn't works. have to wait for confs tho :/ 13:57 < jtimon> alexbosworth you say fees wouldn't work because you would want different rates, assuming all channels were in BTC, can't Bob charge more fees for payments going towards alice than for payments going towards charlie? I mean, they can be 2 different channels one in each direction instead of bidirectional ones, no? 14:04 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16 -!- rachelfish [~rachel@unaffiliated/itsrachelfish] has joined #lightning-dev 14:18 -!- lndbot1 [~lndbot@138.197.213.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18 -!- lndbot [~lndbot@138.197.213.35] has joined #lightning-dev 14:19 < lndbot> test 14:20 < jtimon> bvu it seems to work 14:20 < bitconner> bvu, working 14:20 < lndbot> :slightly_smiling_face: 14:23 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25 < lndbot> @jtimon Not sure I understand, but the current model is for bidirectional channels with fees only relative to the outbound channel 14:27 < lndbot> You don’t want to charge the same rate for BTC:BTC as LTC:BTC so we need a way to model that, either inbound rates or a known exchange rate 14:27 < jtimon> I see, so it will hcarge the name no matter if the previous channel is asset A or B. it won't work for this then, yeah 14:27 < lndbot> I’ve done swaps with LTC/BTC and I used the method where there is just a reference rate 14:29 < jtimon> right, the same node can be have several channels, for examble, a node could have a BTC channl, a LTC channel and a AAA channel, then he has the rates BTC:LTC, LTC:BTC, BTC:AAA, LTC:AAA... 14:30 < jtimon> but these sawps aren't like the "transitive payment" of my previous example, are they? 14:34 < jtimon> for example, perhaps you charge a higher fee for LTC:BTC than for BTC:LTC because you prefer to have available funds in the BTC channel or something 14:35 < jtimon> perhaps different for each BTC channel if you have several 14:35 < lndbot> Yeah pairs aren’t implemented in the current Lightning fee model, maybe they should be 14:35 < jtimon> I guess I assumed they would be, even if all channels are BTC, perhaps you want to charge more for rounting from channel1 to channel to than for channel1 to channel3 14:36 < jtimon> but I guess for only BTC, the extra complexity wasn't worth it 14:36 < lndbot> You might want to but there is no way to signal that atm 14:38 < jtimon> does this sound like something that more people could be interested in adding to the protocol? 14:40 < lndbot> I think it would be useful, even just for avoiding charging myself fees - like if I have two nodes I don’t want to charge myself routing fees 14:41 < lndbot> How to do it in a way that isn’t a combinatorial blowup I’m not sure 14:41 < jtimon> yeah, good point, that's a use case pretty simple to explain 14:45 < jtimon> I guess you could define default rules, or define the same rate for many combinations 15:05 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@139.28.218.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:08 -!- laptop_ [~laptop@host86-166-172-184.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19 -!- Guest42 [~textual@n11211983102.netvigator.com] has joined #lightning-dev 17:04 -!- Guest42 [~textual@n11211983102.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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