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-!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 14:04 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:17 -!- ThomasV_ [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:55 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@92.19.76.0] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 15:00 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@92.19.76.0] has joined #lightning-dev 15:17 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56 -!- nijak [~nijak@141.98.255.153] has joined #lightning-dev 15:59 -!- nijak_ [~nijak@141.98.255.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:06 <+roasbeef> heads up, we're planning on phasing out initial_routing_sync all together from lnd 16:06 <+roasbeef> so just deleting the code that handles that 16:06 <+roasbeef> i think at this point, we've all switched over to using the query features? 16:13 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #lightning-dev 16:23 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@92.19.76.0] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 16:39 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 17:18 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:31 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@75-166-162-153.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 17:40 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:43 < rusty> roasbeef: heads up, I've just completed first pass of my option_simplified_commitment implementation. Am cleaning up and doing some more tests, but I'll open a PR for the spec today for you to check. 17:43 <+roasbeef> niiiiice 17:44 < rusty> roasbeef: one downside, is that remote output is now a P2WSH, since it includes the symmetric delay. it would be nice to restrict possible delay values to some standard subset, so we could brute force those in future... 17:45 <+roasbeef> symmetric delay seems distinct, and should be considered independent of just removing the tweak 17:45 <+roasbeef> going for the smallest possible thing here to stop certain classes of loss of funds by users 17:46 <+roasbeef> "oh, I just deleted it all, I have my seed though, am I ok?" 17:46 < rusty> roasbeef: we discussed this initially: this is all the output changes together. 17:46 <+roasbeef> yes, but then I suggested decoupling the tweakless commitments from taht so we could roll it out faster 17:46 <+roasbeef> also smaller code impact compared to the rest of the bunch 17:47 <+roasbeef> the original one had: symmetric delay (still the jury is out on this imo), tweakless commtiments, and anchor outputs for cpfp 17:47 < rusty> roasbeef: yes, and I said we should do the symmetric delay, since it's pretty trivial. 17:47 < rusty> anchor outputs are a Big Job, at least for us, and that's where I got stuck 5 months ago... 17:47 <+roasbeef> yeh it's a big job generally, particualrly if it requires change in relay behavior for bitcoind nodes 17:48 <+roasbeef> makign things symmetric also makes it more difficult for users in this recovery case too, they still need to sweep those funds, and reconstruct the script 17:48 <+roasbeef> compared to just having things go directly to a key that's entirely under your seed 17:48 < bitconner> changing the output p2wsh also means we have to redoo fee estimation 17:49 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 17:49 < bitconner> or at least test all those various scenarios 17:49 < rusty> (To do it right your wallet has to be able to keep reserves, and chain and combine things to try to unilaterally close ...) 17:50 <+roasbeef> combine things? 17:50 <+roasbeef> what's "it" in this context? 17:50 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, you can RBF and combine txs together to save fees... 17:50 <+roasbeef> ah you mean the anchor output stuff? 17:51 <+roasbeef> yeh, we started to implenet stuf like that in lnd in preparation, for example we have arbitrary output cpfp support now, and then can rbf that cpfp transaction 17:51 < rusty> roasbeef: the problem is, how much reserve do you keep... the answer is probably "enough to close one channel", but then you have to deal with a second channel closing... 17:52 <+roasbeef> but back to the tweakless commitments: my aim here is to get something like this out the door as soon as possible, which may mean cutting nice to haves that don't actually address the underlyign issue 17:52 <+roasbeef> yeh nodes may need to keep an on-chian fee pool, the same applies for eltoo as well 17:53 < rusty> bitconner: true. 17:54 < rusty> It was pretty easy to implement; I' 17:56 < rusty> At the Summit we agreed on symmetry, but I wonder if we've learned something which overrides here? The Game Theory properties of symmetry are appealing, but so are static backups. Do we drop them altogether? 17:56 <+roasbeef> may be the case, but do you agree it's a large change network wide incentive wise? it also makes the DLP case less "instant", since they'll also need to wait a period of time, and time locks still seem to trip up users 17:56 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:56 <+roasbeef> for me it's just about getting this thing out asap, i think we all agree tweakless is a massive win for users 17:57 <+roasbeef> people really like deleting things :'( 17:57 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 17:58 < rusty> roasbeef: I'm reluctant to say "I told you so", but OTOH it *is* a nice property to have that you can claw something back in these scenarios. 17:58 <+roasbeef> "i told you so" for/to what? 17:58 < rusty> roasbeef: "static backups" was overpromising :( 17:58 <+roasbeef> if the user has that, they're fine 17:58 <+roasbeef> this is the case where they delete that too 17:59 <+roasbeef> "something is off, i'm doing to delete and re-install" 17:59 <+roasbeef> going* 17:59 < rusty> roasbeef: "But you said static backups!" Do you expect them to actually read the documentation? 18:00 <+roasbeef> for the less technical users, I assume UIs will guide them through this stuff, and applications get smarter about backing up this stuff to cloud storage solutions they already have access to 18:00 <+roasbeef> we haven't had any issues with SCB on the server side mostly 18:00 <+roasbeef> i think this is getting away from the main discussion here though 18:00 < rusty> Anyway, without other much more significant changes, it doesn't help c-lightning users, FWIW. Though I want it because we seem to have an lnd issue with dataloss_protect in some corner cases... 18:00 <+roasbeef> how doesn't it help them? they don't have a seed? 18:01 <+roasbeef> or ability to rescan I guess? 18:01 < rusty> roasbeef: our channel seed rolls in the peer id, for a start :( 18:01 <+roasbeef> rescan/import 18:01 < rusty> So if you don't know your peers, you're in trouble. 18:02 -!- arvanaghi [46132bba@70.19.43.186] has joined #lightning-dev 18:02 < rusty> We've had "rewrite our key derivation" on the TODO since forever, but it's kind of a painful change. 18:02 <+roasbeef> ahhh gotcha, i'd say that should be resolved for their safety, we can document our schema outside of comments as well if that's helpful 18:02 < rusty> roasbeef: " /* FIXME: lnd has a nicer BIP32 method for deriving secrets which we 18:02 < rusty> * should migrate to. */" 18:02 <+roasbeef> iirc i started to go down that path (was like that orignally iirc, maybe even had a block hash or soemthing?), but then wanted to make it as portable as possible 18:03 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:03 < rusty> roasbeef: so, I'm tempted to say we should walk back our decision to do symmetrical commitments altogether. Though, maybe we still use max(your-to_self_delay, my-to_self_delay) for both sides? 18:04 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 18:04 < rusty> Which is both trivial and nicer Game Theory wise. 18:04 <+roasbeef> hmm, idk seems nice to be able to configure them disticntly, like say I have a tower that's suuuuper reliable and i don't care, while the other party doesn't trust any tower code and wants a month 18:05 <+roasbeef> (i don't care as in i'll let you use a very low csv value) 18:07 < rusty> roasbeef: hmmm, maybe. But in practice what happens at the moment is that the tower just fails you for asking for too much :) 18:07 < bitconner> it might not be taking a reward ;) 18:09 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:10 < rusty> roasbeef: but yeah, some writeup of your key derivation scheme would be great. Would help my protocol tests too, where we could then simply dictate the master privkey: at the moment I have hooks to set all the secret basepoints invividually. 18:12 < rusty> And I'm composing a proposal to the ML drop symmetry as a proposal, so we can argue there. 18:13 < rusty> (That is, if anyone feels strongly: I'm happy, though it means throwing away some nice code :) 18:18 -!- mode/#lightning-dev [+o rusty] by ChanServ 18:18 -!- mode/#lightning-dev [+v arvanaghi] by rusty 18:18 <@rusty> arvanaghi: does that work? 18:19 <+arvanaghi> Hi there. What are the contents of an update transaction in eltoo? Does it have the same outputs as the settlement transaction before it? 18:20 <@rusty> It's a single output, which is spent by the settlement transaction. The input is the funding output. 18:21 <@rusty> arvanaghi: the update transactions are basically identical except the nLocktime increases. 18:22 <@rusty> (Oh, and the output key(s) rotate for each one) 18:28 -!- riclas [riclas@148.63.37.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:37 <@rusty> bitconner: BTW, the spec had all the weight mods for the symmetric CSV changes already; I'm deleting them now... 18:43 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 18:47 < bitconner> :( 18:47 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev 18:47 < bitconner> i suppose tho it will be nice to only have two different commitment shapes: status quo and commitment v2 18:47 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:51 <@rusty> bitconner: yeah; taproot will be v3 but it's just script changes. 18:51 * rusty regenerates all his test vectors... 18:55 <@rusty> bitconner, roasbeef: BTW I have protocol test framework written, with a DSL to describe test "conversations". This week niftynei and I are planning on using it to test the dual funding WIP and bikeshed over the DSL format etc. I'd love to try to hook up lnd, but requires some hacking to override the secrets used for basepoints in the test subject. Wondered if you have someone in mind (interns?) who might want to play with it? 18:57 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@184.75.220.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:11 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #lightning-dev 19:11 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@184.75.220.114] has joined #lightning-dev 19:31 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 19:46 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev 19:48 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #lightning-dev 19:50 <+arvanaghi> Ah, I see how eltoo solves the tx ordering problem now. Brilliant work on this! 19:52 <@rusty> arvanaghi: it was mainly cdecker, I just nodded along :) 20:25 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54 -!- arvanaghi [46132bba@70.19.43.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07 <@rusty> roasbeef bitconner https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/642 for your reviewing pleasure... 21:12 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 21:12 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@185.62.188.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14 <@rusty> Ouch! 21:14 <@rusty> 2019-07-17T03:37:12.703Z UNUSUAL lightningd(1262): 03021c5f5f57322740e4ee6936452add19dc7ea7ccf90635f95119ab82a62ae268 chan #14764: Peer permanent failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: lightning_channeld: received ERROR channel 5ff0890d9f1fbb63439a7d793c28cb74c3baef8c9b610c51c64b8a6497237540: sync error 21:14 <@rusty> 2019-07-17T03:37:14.964Z UNUSUAL lightningd(1262): 030c3f19d742ca294a55c00376b3b355c3c90d61c6b6b39554dbc7ac19b141c14f chan #14839: Peer permanent failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: lightning_channeld: received ERROR channel 79525ec2c4eaffb5fd6893957f330db81b7383c50d57113d5bf8ffee3c121bdc: sync error 21:14 <@rusty> 2019-07-17T03:37:16.048Z UNUSUAL lightningd(1262): 028c1da32603fce64118e469ffe2cfeec04d1c4bd88205efb4e8b4208f77a8064e chan #14996: Peer permanent failure in CHANNELD_NORMAL: lightning_channeld: received ERROR channel 6913067c9c89404d9451df25fed1a6cc98b9d9ef801b623d5e8e90aa43ca3077: sync error 21:14 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 21:17 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:19 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@185.62.188.244] has joined #lightning-dev 21:24 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@185.62.188.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@185.62.188.244] has joined #lightning-dev 22:03 -!- ThomasV_ [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 22:05 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:13 -!- ThomasV_ [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 22:44 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:50 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev 22:53 <+roasbeef> rusty: what's that? result of transcript w/ lnd? 22:54 <@rusty> roasbeef: that's my test node, losing three lnd channels on restart :( 22:54 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:55 <+roasbeef> losing as in unable to connect, or losing as in force close? 22:55 <+roasbeef> we'll send an error if we don't get the chan reeset within N seconds of establishing a connection 22:55 <+roasbeef> we'll now use a higher priority queue to make sure we send chan reest before we send any gossip stuff 22:58 <@rusty> roasbeef: force close: that "sync error" is what lnd sends. 22:59 <+roasbeef> or it's that DLP related thing? which I think was re-fixed recently? 22:59 <+roasbeef> will CL always force close if an error is sent? 22:59 * roasbeef looks at the error code error message extension on his TOOD list... 23:08 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:25 <@rusty> roasbeef: we do... we could retry, but I thought that meant you're going to close channel on us because reestablish secret and/or point were bad? 23:34 -!- Honethe_ [~Honthe@s91904421.blix.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:37 -!- Honthe [~Honthe@s91904421.blix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 23:38 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:56 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lightning-dev --- Log closed Wed Jul 17 00:00:13 2019