--- Log opened Fri Oct 25 00:00:44 2019
00:17 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a5f:5700:7bb3:6296:d274:7295] has joined #lightning-dev
00:18 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
00:39 < lndbot> <johanth> bluematt: oh, just responded on the ML, did see this now
00:40 < lndbot> <johanth> the proposal is just to get rid of the special case and just allow adding a child always
00:41 < lndbot> <johanth> it could obviously let you breach the current size limitations, as as long as you have a parent with an unspent output you can add another child
00:43 < lndbot> <johanth> so the effective limit on the number of descendants would be O(size of parent)
00:43 < lndbot> <johanth> but it might be a no-go as I imagine these limits where put there for a reason :P
01:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
02:00 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
02:00 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ttymcrqdzbxxeljn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
02:01 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e35:8aba:8220:6627:dad:d967:649d] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:03 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:39 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has joined #lightning-dev
03:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev
03:03 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.161.234] has joined #lightning-dev
03:04 -!- wullon [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:04 -!- wullon [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has joined #lightning-dev
03:37 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:38 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #lightning-dev
03:44 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev
03:52 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode]
04:50 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
04:55 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev
04:59 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has joined #lightning-dev
05:20 -!- Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
05:27 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.161.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
05:54 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.164.227.124] has joined #lightning-dev
05:55 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
06:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev
06:11 -!- alko89 [~alko@cpe-85-10-28-138.static.amis.net] has joined #lightning-dev
06:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
06:34 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode]
06:37 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@host109-150-22-219.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev
06:38 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:40 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.164.227.124] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev
06:44 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:44 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:45 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
06:45 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:46 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
06:46 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:47 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
06:47 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:50 -!- joostjgr [~joostjag@ip51cf95f6.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
07:21 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@host109-150-22-219.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode]
07:27 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has joined #lightning-dev
07:36 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
07:51 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:51 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has joined #lightning-dev
07:51 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:52 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has joined #lightning-dev
07:59 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode]
08:23 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@108-91-143-73.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev
08:27 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@108-91-143-73.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:28 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #lightning-dev
08:31 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:54 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@108-91-143-73.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev
08:58 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:59 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@108-91-143-73.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:59 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #lightning-dev
09:26 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:27 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
09:33 -!- Honthe [~Honthe@s91904421.blix.com] has joined #lightning-dev
09:38 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:40 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:45 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:49 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e35:8aba:8220:6627:dad:d967:649d] has joined #lightning-dev
10:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev
10:16 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
10:20 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:20 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
10:27 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgofvjwahuyxiuqc] has joined #lightning-dev
10:29 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@141.98.255.151] has joined #lightning-dev
11:01 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:11 < BlueMatt> johanth: oh lol, yea, no, you cant just remove the limits.
11:11 -!- nobody123 [~nobody123@152.89.163.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:11 < BlueMatt> not only can you not remove the package limits, cause you'd introduce all kinds of DoS attacks, but your solution also requires that you remove the mempool memory limit as well!
11:11 -!- nobody123 [~nobody123@152.89.163.116] has joined #lightning-dev
11:16 -!- nobody123 [~nobody123@152.89.163.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:28 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:30 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
11:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
11:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
12:00 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:02 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev
12:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
12:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:32 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@141.98.255.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:49 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:55 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
13:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:03 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #lightning-dev
13:07 -!- buZz [~buzz@unaffiliated/buzz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:25 -!- dr_orlovsky [uid398581@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eosnlpgwwgruknpm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
13:30 < harding> johanth: is "jeremyrubin has expressed problems with the current mempool limits" a reference to the #bitcoin-core-dev discussion from a few days ago regarding OP_COSHV/OP_SECURETHEBAG or another conversation somewhere else?
13:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
13:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
14:05 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
14:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:10 <+roasbeef> BlueMatt: I think it's more so a lack of historical context on why the limits are there in the first palce, the precise DoS attacks they mitigate, and if algorithmic optimizations or further caching can eliminate a class of them 
14:11 <+roasbeef> whenever I read the code, it just seems wrong that tracking is on an ancestor level rather than an input level, as in being prevented from adding a new 1 level deep child to a parent transaction's output because there's a high depth string of children on an adjacent input 
14:11 <+roasbeef> harding: I think so 
14:18 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
14:29 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: well independantly, the proposal here also requires literally removing all limits, so thats pretty kaput, sadly
14:31 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: in any case, there are various operations which require knowing the descendants (you said ancestors, but ancestors means inputs)...notably mempool removal needs to look at txn going down the tree to figure out if cpfp has been applied
14:31 < BlueMatt> whereas mining requies looking at tx up the tree to calculate cpfp
14:31 < BlueMatt> so, sadly, you need to go both ways for pretty key operations
14:32 < BlueMatt> harding: nono, about the discussion on the ml where johanth noted that it would be *way* easier for lightning's use-case if you didn't have to meet the requirement that only one output per-party (and only in a two-party system) can be non-CSV-locked
14:33 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:33 < BlueMatt> but, sadly, that requires removing ~all the mempool limits to "work"
14:33 < BlueMatt> (though if you kept the size limit on individual txn you could only remove a bunch of them, but even still it requires removing a lot of limits)
14:34 < harding> BlueMatt: right, I'm following that discussion, but johanth mentioned a comment by jeremyrubin and I wanted to know where that came from (since I don't see any posts from him on that thread on list).
14:34 < BlueMatt> ahah
14:35 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #lightning-dev
14:37 < jonatack> harding: possibly from here yesterday? http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2019-10-24.html#l-660
14:38 < harding> jonatack: ah, that's almost certainly it.  Thanks!
14:39 < harding> Looks like instagibbs and marcofalke have been working on creating that documentation using notes from sdaftuar: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/Mempool-and-mining
14:40 < jonatack> harding: or was possibly a follow-up on earlier comments by him. WRT the documentation: nice!
14:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
14:41 < jonatack> AFAICT that document did not exist in the wiki before.
14:42 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
14:43 < harding> jonatack: correct, it was created this morning during another discussion in #bitcoin-core-dev.
14:45 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:58 <+roasbeef> BlueMatt: i don't think either of those needs are incompatible w/ what I have in mind, I mean specifically the logic that prevents adding a new transaction if its parent has too many descendents on a distinct output 
15:03 <+roasbeef> this comment gets at in somewhat: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15681#issuecomment-509146925 
15:03 <+roasbeef> but doesn't recognize that if you have a htlc to yourself that you know the preimage for, then you've gained an additional output 
15:05 <+roasbeef> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15681#issuecomment-508207606
15:19 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:21 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
15:26 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:27 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev
15:31 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:34 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a5f:5700:7bb3:6296:d274:7295] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
16:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:22 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:33 -!- luigi_ [~luigi@ip68-228-80-222.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lightning-dev
16:36 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
16:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
17:17 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:18 -!- luigi_ [~luigi@ip68-228-80-222.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:23 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has joined #lightning-dev
17:45 -!- riclas [~riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
17:50 -!- riclas [riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev
17:50 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:58 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:e54a:392d:cc0a:581e] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode]
18:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
18:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
19:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:17 -!- buZz [~buzz@192.161.48.59] has joined #lightning-dev
19:18 -!- buZz is now known as Guest64613
19:18 -!- Guest64613 [~buzz@192.161.48.59] has quit [Changing host]
19:18 -!- Guest64613 [~buzz@unaffiliated/buzz] has joined #lightning-dev
19:25 -!- Guest64613 is now known as buZz
19:32 -!- m-schmoock [~will@schmoock.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
19:38 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
20:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
20:42 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: hmm? the rbf stuff noted in those comments you linked to was fixed before merge, that was just a bug
20:42 < BlueMatt> (we now have a optimistic rbf policy that allows a limited subset of txn with ancestors to be rbf'd)
20:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:45 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: as to your (apparent) point about the limmitations here (mostly the fact that it must be, and can only be, two party), well thats pretty fundamental no matter how you slice it - you could obviously bump the carve-out a few times and say you can add N more to a package, instead of only 1 (and while it probably needs a careful read-through that may actually not trigger any pessimal behavior anywhere, you'd have to ask suhas if he 
20:45 < BlueMatt> recalls off-hand), but its still N, never something non-constant. ultimately the mempool *has* a limit.
20:46 < BlueMatt> note that some of the limits are just an easier-to-calculate way of enforcing actual limits, but also we dont want to stray toooo far towards "the liimts are defined by exactly where the pessimal behavior in core hides" because those are subject to change and there are *huge* network-wide costs (both in bitcoin core/the p2p network) and for clients, most especially lightning, in changing those
20:47 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: if you have *specific* suggestions, I dont think anyone would object, but it seems you're throwing rocks without bothering to look at the specific concerns here.
20:51 < BlueMatt> or, question, even.
21:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
21:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
21:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
21:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
22:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:27 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:28 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #lightning-dev
22:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
23:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:24 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev
23:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
23:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
--- Log closed Sat Oct 26 00:00:45 2019