--- Log opened Fri Feb 14 00:00:40 2020 00:32 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl11-16-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:33 -!- hodlwave1 [hodlwavema@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-aarguqyrbpedkhnk] has joined #lightning-dev 01:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:54 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:55 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #lightning-dev 02:15 -!- JoKe[m] [jokesharek@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gpsyfitteymfegcn] has joined #lightning-dev 02:15 -!- TheFuzzStone[m] [thefuzzsto@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-getudbsqdkdesixh] has joined #lightning-dev 02:15 -!- imawhale[m] [borderless@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qxqkjinatfykiaac] has joined #lightning-dev 02:15 -!- brandoncurtis [brandongwu@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hnlkadivnylxvnus] has joined #lightning-dev 02:40 -!- jcoe [~seru@195.206.169.231] has joined #lightning-dev 02:46 -!- jcoe1 [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #lightning-dev 02:46 -!- jcoe [~seru@195.206.169.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 04:23 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:23 -!- eihli [~eihli@104-48-112-17.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 04:46 -!- jcoe [~seru@195.206.169.231] has joined #lightning-dev 04:46 -!- jcoe1 [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:49 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 05:04 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:30 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:36 -!- slivera [~slivera@217.138.204.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39 -!- Kostenko [~Kostenko@2001:8a0:7293:1200:68f5:2150:4d47:f16f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 05:50 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.223.89.146] has joined #lightning-dev 05:55 -!- Kostenko [~Kostenko@2001:8a0:7285:1700:64fb:e158:71e9:c350] has joined #lightning-dev 05:56 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:15 -!- jcoe1 [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #lightning-dev 06:15 -!- jcoe [~seru@195.206.169.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:40 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev 06:56 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has joined #lightning-dev 07:14 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 07:29 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has joined #lightning-dev 07:44 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:48 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 08:56 -!- jcoe1 [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:58 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:00 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:03 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 09:04 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has joined #lightning-dev 09:24 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 09:29 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:45 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.223.89.146] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 09:49 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:58 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 10:00 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 10:19 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23 -!- riclas [~riclas@188.37.7.77] has joined #lightning-dev 10:37 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-67-180-60-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:37 < jeremyrubin> Hey had a cool idea; maybe not discussed yet 10:38 < jeremyrubin> Creating a cooperative close pool, where people coin-join their coop closes 10:47 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@205.178.40.206] has joined #lightning-dev 10:55 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has joined #lightning-dev 10:57 < ariard_> jeremyrubin: so a multiparty closing with one big output, and a covenant tree to let parties redeem their balance non-interactively? 10:58 < ariard_> cf actual discussion on tx composition protocol on the ml (dual-funding stuff) 10:58 < jeremyrubin> ariard_: yes with CTV this is better (remind me to make the Lightning in a CTV World email thread...) but not nesc 10:59 < jeremyrubin> This is just assuming a BBS of people trying to close channels all sign up to do a coinjoin 10:59 < jeremyrubin> And you can do a protocol where you sign a coinjoin with 1 other person, and then if that succeeds, you then look for 1 more person (re-randomizing I guess?) 11:00 < jeremyrubin> So if one person attempts to DoS you can just roll back and drop them 11:01 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@205.178.40.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@205.178.40.206] has joined #lightning-dev 11:02 < ariard_> jeremyrubin: okay so the orchestration server build the coinjoin for everyone and cc to all parties the best-signed coinjoin 11:03 < ariard_> and parties wait for other joing the pool for some given gentleman agreement period? 11:03 < jeremyrubin> In theory 11:03 < ariard_> quite similar to cut-through 11:03 < jeremyrubin> This doesn't need to be a special purpose coinjoin survey 11:03 < jeremyrubin> *server 11:03 < jeremyrubin> You can just use an existing one 11:03 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03 < ariard_> I mean any party can be the orchestration server 11:04 < jeremyrubin> I'm just saying that any exisiting coinjoin server should be compatible with someone actually being a coop close 11:04 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 11:04 < ariard_> just be sure than you a strictt order for input announcement to avoid fee computation dependencies 11:04 < jeremyrubin> In fact, you could use your existing channel as a joinmarket provider 11:04 < ariard_> as a maker right 11:04 < jeremyrubin> yeah 11:05 < jeremyrubin> Just "hey, we're online, if someone wants to join thru us we'll re-emit our channel" 11:05 < jeremyrubin> CTV makes this stuff a fair bit easier as you can skip a bunch of extra signing 11:05 < ariard_> so you own the set of takers to non-LN wallets 11:05 < ariard_> *open 11:05 < jeremyrubin> yeah 11:05 < jeremyrubin> larger anon set 11:06 < ariard_> es you recompose subtrees on the fly with a covenant I guess 11:06 < jeremyrubin> Yeah. You can do this with multisig it's just slow 11:06 < ariard_> to blur both coinjoins and LN cooperative closing we need some other privacy fix (nLocktime/nSequence,...) tho 11:06 < ariard_> (also a pending ml post to do on this) 11:07 < jeremyrubin> I thought coop close doesn't leak any nLocktime stuff? 11:07 < jeremyrubin> Ah 11:07 < jeremyrubin> In a taproot world 11:08 < ariard_> yeah I mean right now people are saying "taproot is great because you can't see from a LN funding from another output" but if you use nSequence or some specified input order 11:08 < ariard_> that's easy leak 11:08 < jeremyrubin> Only when uncoop close right? 11:08 < jeremyrubin> Why does coop close need that 11:09 < jeremyrubin> Also CTV can fix some of the privacy stuff 11:09 < jeremyrubin> OP_IF multisig OP_ELSE CTV OPENDIF 11:09 < ariard_> I assume a post-tx-composition world, where closing==batch of funding outputs 11:09 < ariard_> right now the tx composiiton proposal enforces RBF 11:09 < ariard_> and core wallet is doing anti-fee snipping 11:09 < ariard_> so nLocktime set 11:10 < jeremyrubin> Ah, well you would just need to set it to look like core and set a recent nLockTime? 11:10 < jeremyrubin> And let's not assume CTV 11:10 < jeremyrubin> Nor Taproot 11:10 < ariard_> usage of OP_CTV maybe a privacy leak in itself :( 11:10 < ariard_> specially if only LN implems 11:10 < ariard_> use it 11:10 < jeremyrubin> This has a benefit because 11:11 < jeremyrubin> People are able to both passively offer CJ through LN 11:11 < jeremyrubin> But also do their closes through it 11:11 < jeremyrubin> and also their opens, one day 11:11 < jeremyrubin> so hopefully that helps improve anon set 11:11 < ariard_> uncooperativr closes will be really hard to keep private 11:12 < ariard_> I assume you multisig if coop close, but why OP_CTV for uncoop? 11:13 < ariard_> "Ah, well you would just need to set it to look like core and set a recent nLockTime?" challenge is coordination between coinjoin, core wallet and LN to all adopt the same set of tx fields without breaking every protocol semantic 11:13 < ariard_> and some people will complain if core wallet setRBF by default (because some merchants use zero-conf txn) 11:13 < jeremyrubin> Ah the reason for CTV to uncoop close is that you can non-interactively open channels using CTV 11:14 < jeremyrubin> So you want that anyways 11:14 < jeremyrubin> But in terms of privacy it masks you from that v.s. other protocols that look similar 11:14 < jeremyrubin> Another answer is "fees" 11:14 < ariard_> okay it's on exit output, no in the funding output 11:14 < jeremyrubin> It's cheaper to spend on coop case 11:15 < jeremyrubin> idk the terminology there 11:15 < jeremyrubin> But it's in the channel output 11:15 < ariard_> I see, I want to close my channel, I'll post to the BBS the preimage of the coop close I want 11:16 < ariard_> the OP_CTV preimage 11:16 < ariard_> the channel_output, I assume funding_output 11:17 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has joined #lightning-dev 11:17 < ariard_> also a really nice usage of covenant would be to make uncoop equal to coop one by aggregating all HTLCs in one big output 11:17 < ariard_> a "pooled commitment tx" 11:17 < ariard_> but still locktime as a protocol usage leak 11:17 < jeremyrubin> I think you're mixing uncoop and coop 11:18 < jeremyrubin> coop cannot be CTV 11:18 < jeremyrubin> (and again, you're speaker biasing me a little bit -- I'm just trying to talk about coinjoin for LN closes) 11:19 < ariard_> yeah coop cannot be CTV, it's committed a channel creation 11:20 < ariard_> ah lol for the deviation, it's just some problems related 11:25 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 11:28 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 11:44 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-67-180-60-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-67-180-60-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:06 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@205.178.40.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 13:52 -!- inara [~inara@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56 -!- inara [~inara@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lightning-dev 14:18 -!- fox2p [~fox2p@cpe-66-108-32-173.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: hash] 14:29 -!- slivera [~slivera@217.138.204.102] has joined #lightning-dev 14:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 15:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:42 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48 -!- rdymac [~britoair@unaffiliated/rdymac] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 15:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 16:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:33 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 16:38 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56 -!- harrigan_ [~harrigan@ptr-93-89-242-235.ip.airwire.ie] has joined #lightning-dev 16:56 -!- niceplaces [~nplace@185.246.211.68] has joined #lightning-dev 16:57 -!- cryptapus_ [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has joined #lightning-dev 16:58 -!- achow101_ [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #lightning-dev 16:59 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has joined #lightning-dev 16:59 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59 -!- niceplace [~nplace@185.246.211.68] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in] 16:59 -!- harrigan [~harrigan@ptr-93-89-242-235.ip.airwire.ie] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in] 16:59 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:59 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl11-16-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:59 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:00 -!- betawaffle [~betawaffl@h2.kdf.io] has quit [Quit: Oh noes, my ZNC!] 17:00 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a67:4700:af2a:23:5e6f:bccf] has joined #lightning-dev 17:01 -!- betawaffle [~betawaffl@h2.kdf.io] has joined #lightning-dev 17:02 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@ip216.ip-54-36-238.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 262 seconds] 17:04 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@ip216.ip-54-36-238.eu] has joined #lightning-dev 17:05 -!- cryptapus_ is now known as cryptapus 17:09 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev 17:11 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has joined #lightning-dev 17:12 -!- darosior [~darosior@194.36.189.246] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 17:12 -!- darosior [~darosior@194.36.189.246] has joined #lightning-dev 17:20 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #lightning-dev 17:56 -!- harding [~quassel@li1228-87.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: tired of arguing] 18:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@188.37.7.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a67:4700:af2a:23:5e6f:bccf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58 -!- Amperture [~amp@65.79.129.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31 -!- asukan [~jan@68-132-184-203.on-nets.com] has joined #lightning-dev 20:42 -!- asukan [~jan@68-132-184-203.on-nets.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:45 -!- asukan [~Asuka@183.128.104.63] has joined #lightning-dev 20:49 -!- asukan [~Asuka@183.128.104.63] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49 -!- asukan [~Asuka@68-132-184-203.on-nets.com] has joined #lightning-dev 20:51 -!- asukan [~Asuka@68-132-184-203.on-nets.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has joined #lightning-dev 21:09 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:09 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has joined #lightning-dev 21:12 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has joined #lightning-dev 21:33 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01 -!- asukan [~jan@183.128.104.63] has joined #lightning-dev 22:09 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has joined #lightning-dev 22:14 -!- achow101_ is now known as achow101 22:16 -!- imawhale [~Thunderbi@116.90.74.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 23:43 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev --- Log closed Sat Feb 15 00:00:39 2020