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[~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:49 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjrhetumvhuuprtz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:52 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev 12:22 < ghost43> fiatjaf: re auto-closing on unreasonable fee estimates, see https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues/6027 12:40 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 12:44 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild 13:17 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:17 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:25 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:28 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev 13:48 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:3092:7169:2a22:9e8d] has joined #lightning-dev 13:56 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-boymwdcmtgetivjx] has joined #lightning-dev 15:05 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48 -!- slivera [~slivera@116.206.229.99] has joined #lightning-dev 15:49 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev 16:19 -!- snoozingbedbug [~snoozingb@cpe-172-74-29-86.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:21 < snoozingbedbug> zmnscpxj If both parties sign a transaction with sequence N shouldn't that automatically invalidate every transaction with sequence M with M < N? 16:22 < snoozingbedbug> Afterall they both signed that transaction number. 16:22 < zmnscpxj> what "sequence" are you talking about? `nSequence`? 16:23 < snoozingbedbug> the important thing is ensuring that the existence of a transaction with sequence N invalidates every transaction with sequence M with M < N 16:23 < zmnscpxj> the commitment index that is committed to in blinded form in the commitment transaction of BOLT? 16:23 < zmnscpxj> from a "high enough" level that is how all update mechanisms work 16:23 < zmnscpxj> the devil is in the details 16:24 < snoozingbedbug> I'm confused. 16:24 < darosior> nSequence != consensus 16:24 < snoozingbedbug> I would think that would automatically make all older transactions invalid. 16:24 < snoozingbedbug> As part of the protocol. 16:24 < zmnscpxj> for example, under Poon-Dryja when you sign sequence N you then give revocation keys for sequence N-1 16:25 < zmnscpxj> in that statement, sequence is NOT `nSequence`!! 16:25 < snoozingbedbug> That just seems needlessly complex. 16:25 < zmnscpxj> It is NOT part of the bitcoin protocol, then 16:25 < zmnscpxj> it is something we build on top of existing primitives, that makes something like a "sequence number" but is NOT `nSequence` 16:25 < zmnscpxj> so please be careful with what you mean by "sequence number" 16:26 < zmnscpxj> for example, every commitment has a `commitment_index` under BOLT#3 16:26 < snoozingbedbug> I would think when the miners committed a transaction that was part of a channel they could just commit the last one and be done with it. 16:26 < zmnscpxj> which acts very much like a "sequence number" in that behavior 16:26 < zmnscpxj> So you are publishing every update to the channel in real time? 16:27 < zmnscpxj> that is not an improvement over just doing it on Bitcoin onchain, in terms of bandwidth 16:27 < snoozingbedbug> No 16:27 < zmnscpxj> so how do the miners know which is the last one? 16:27 < zmnscpxj> magic? 16:27 < snoozingbedbug> You just transact with one another each time updating the sequence number 16:28 < snoozingbedbug> When it is submitted on chain 16:28 < zmnscpxj> Where is the sequence number embedded or committed to in the transaction? 16:28 < zmnscpxj> are you talking about `nSequence` or something that you build on top? 16:28 < snoozingbedbug> if the opposing person doesn't produce a higher signed number then that's it 16:28 < snoozingbedbug> Let's say we start over 16:28 < zmnscpxj> How much time are you giving to the opposing person? until the next block? 16:28 < snoozingbedbug> I would say after x blocks 16:29 < zmnscpxj> okay, first, `nSequence` **used to** have those semantics 16:29 < snoozingbedbug> to be determined 16:29 < zmnscpxj> lemme dig 16:29 < zmnscpxj> https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/cc9psl/technical_a_brief_history_of_payment_channels/ 16:30 < snoozingbedbug> I think it's above my pay grade as to why this wouldn't work. 16:31 < zmnscpxj> see the reddit post above for why not 16:31 < snoozingbedbug> Yeah, I'd say that after x blocks if it's not challenged then it's committed. 16:31 < snoozingbedbug> definitely not one but maybe that itself is part of the channel definition 16:32 < zmnscpxj> the mechanism you describe is *approximately* what Decker-Russell-Osuntokun does, but requires SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT / SIGHASH_NOINPUT 16:32 < snoozingbedbug> basically doing it that way you could throw out all your old transactions 16:32 < zmnscpxj> see the "eltoo" paper 16:32 < zmnscpxj> we do not store old transactions in current Lightning either, because of shachain 16:32 < zmnscpxj> all we really need to store is the revocation keys 16:32 < snoozingbedbug> oh i was under the impression the older lightning transactions had to be stored 16:32 < zmnscpxj> and the revocation keys are designed to be stored in a shachain construct 16:33 < zmnscpxj> no 16:33 < snoozingbedbug> that's not the case? 16:33 < snoozingbedbug> ok 16:33 < snoozingbedbug> sweet 16:33 < snoozingbedbug> i could have sworn i saw a while ago that you had to possibly have someone store those for you if you had a light client 16:33 < snoozingbedbug> i guess they didnt' know what they were talking about 16:33 < zmnscpxj> they have to at the watchtower since we want privacy there and do not want to leak which channels are which 16:34 < snoozingbedbug> so the old transactions do have to be stored? 16:34 < zmnscpxj> but if your node is online 100% of the time, no, you can just watch the chain yourself and store everything in a shachain 16:34 < zmnscpxj> on the watchtower, all the old txids, not txes, yes 16:34 < zmnscpxj> plus how to revoke 16:34 < zmnscpxj> because privacy 16:34 < snoozingbedbug> man...i don't know 16:34 < snoozingbedbug> i'm going to have to wrap my head around it 16:35 < zmnscpxj> shachain use means you have to know which funding outpoint you are going to watch 16:35 < snoozingbedbug> i'll read the links 16:35 < snoozingbedbug> really seems like you could just hold that last one and then check in some determined amount of blocks to see if the other party submitted 16:35 < zmnscpxj> we do not want to leak that information to the watchtower, so the watchtower cannot be given that information 16:35 < snoozingbedbug> and if not wait the same period again 16:35 < snoozingbedbug> something like that 16:35 < zmnscpxj> "hold" as in put onchain 16:35 < zmnscpxj> because that is the only way to coordinate across all mines 16:35 < zmnscpxj> miners 16:35 < snoozingbedbug> no just keep that last transaction 16:35 < zmnscpxj> you cannot 16:36 < zmnscpxj> there is no consensus on the mempool 16:36 < zmnscpxj> which is why Decker-Russell-Osuntokun commits the tx 16:36 < zmnscpxj> then lets it be revoked by any later `nLockTime`, i.e. sequence number == `nLockTime` in Decker-Russell-Osuntokun 16:36 < snoozingbedbug> ahh 16:36 < snoozingbedbug> ok i'm starting to see 16:37 < zmnscpxj> yes, so the given idea is very similar to Decker-Russell-Osuntokun 16:37 < zmnscpxj> you can never impose any rules based on the mempool 16:37 < zmnscpxj> because mempool has no consensus 16:37 < zmnscpxj> you can only impose rules based on the actual chain 16:38 < zmnscpxj> but Decker-Russell-Osuntokun requires SIGHASH_NOINPUT / SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT 16:38 < zmnscpxj> aj is working on that I think 16:38 -!- gleb1 [~gleb@cpe-67-244-100-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:39 < snoozingbedbug> Wonder if you can just say it's 1000 blocks and if they don't submit they they are screwed...something like that...then watchtowers just hold that last transaction 16:39 < snoozingbedbug> and if they see an attempt in the mempool then they submit that last one 16:39 < snoozingbedbug> I would be worried though that it would sneak in 16:39 < zmnscpxj> but that correlates channels to data on the watchtower end 16:39 < zmnscpxj> which is privacy loss 16:39 < zmnscpxj> i.e. you say to the watchtower "okay this channel now has this state" 16:40 < zmnscpxj> so the watchtower knows exactly which channel you are talking about 16:40 -!- gleb [~gleb@cpe-67-244-100-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40 < snoozingbedbug> ok...thanks 16:40 < snoozingbedbug> this is neat stuff 16:40 < snoozingbedbug> thanks for taking the time to explain 16:40 < zmnscpxj> so instead you tell the watchtower "if you see this txid onchain, release this other tx" 16:40 < zmnscpxj> and the txid could be for *any* channel, the watchtower has no idea which channel you are talking about 16:41 < zmnscpxj> at the drawback that the watchtower has to store *all* older transactions 16:41 < zmnscpxj> so it is a privacy/storage tradeoff 16:42 < snoozingbedbug> hmm 16:42 < zmnscpxj> I mean if we are talking about only yourself, you already know all your own payments, so leaking this information to yourself is fine 16:42 < snoozingbedbug> i'm not making the connection with how they don't know what channel you are wanting to watch 16:42 < zmnscpxj> but once a third-party gets involved.... welll now you have to be more circumspect 16:42 < zmnscpxj> all the watchtower knows is a txid 16:42 < zmnscpxj> the channel is a funding outpoint, i.e. a UTXO 16:42 < zmnscpxj> the commitment transaction spends this funding outpoint 16:43 < zmnscpxj> but all the watchtower knows is a tx***id***, not the tx itself 16:43 < zmnscpxj> so unless the watchtower can reverse SHA256, it cannot know the original commitment tx 16:43 < zmnscpxj> and cannot know *Which* funding txout i.e. UTXO we are talking about 16:44 < zmnscpxj> the commitment transaction shows the funding txout UTXO being spent 16:44 < zmnscpxj> but we do not show the commitment transaction, just the txid. 16:44 < zmnscpxj> better? 16:44 < zmnscpxj> that is ***NOT*** how a node watches its *own* channels: instead it looks at the funding txout being spent 16:45 < zmnscpxj> if the funding txout is spent, it reads the transaction and determines if it is an old one by looking it up in the shachain 16:45 < snoozingbedbug> I dont' know the details of bitcoin well enough to understand unfortunately. How is this different than just holding that last transaction? 16:45 < zmnscpxj> "this" === watchtower watching or "this" === node watching? 16:45 < snoozingbedbug> watchtower watching 16:46 < zmnscpxj> with watchtower watching the watchtower has to hold on to *all* previous txids, because *any* of them can be used to attack the channel 16:46 < snoozingbedbug> Ok, i see 16:46 < zmnscpxj> With node watching, you just store all the revocation keys in a shachain, a shachain is an O(1) structure with constant storage and O(log n) lookup 16:47 < zmnscpxj> so you do not have an ever-growing list of old txids to watch 16:47 < zmnscpxj> you just store how to revoke it in the shachain 16:48 < snoozingbedbug> ok thanks! 16:48 < zmnscpxj> now we cannot send over the shachain to the watchtower because (1) the shachain contains the history of a single channel, so privacy loss 16:48 < zmnscpxj> and (2) the shachain stores a privkey, so ----- not your keys, not your coins 16:49 < zmnscpxj> but shachain is fine if it is the node watching, because it is its own keys (specifically the revocation key given by the other side of the channel) 17:05 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:3092:7169:2a22:9e8d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl13-226-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:24 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25 < rusty> t-bast: we have to find some time overlap :) 17:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26 -!- jonatack [~jon@82.102.27.195] has joined #lightning-dev 17:37 -!- pkr [~pkr@158.140.254.215] has joined #lightning-dev 17:42 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:46 -!- jonatack [~jon@82.102.27.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47 -!- mdunnio 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