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19:35 < fiatjaf> what are HTLC-success and HTLC-timeout transactions?
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19:38 < darosior> fiatjaf: transactions used for the onchain resolution of HTLCs (bolt-05) in case of unilateral close
19:38 < fiatjaf> darosior: aren't these the normal htlcs?
19:39 < fiatjaf> I see a bunch of normal htlcs onchain
19:39 < fiatjaf> I don't understand when I should see an htlc-success or htlc-timeout
19:39 < darosior> What do you mean by "normal" ?
19:40 < fiatjaf> like this: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/dcbf8583976df087c79c3ce0b535311212e6812d/03-transactions.md#offered-htlc-outputs
19:40 < fiatjaf> that's what I thought an htlc was, it has a clause that allows being spent with a preimage and one that allows being spent after some time
19:41 < fiatjaf> an htlc-success also an output of the commitment transaction?
19:42 < fiatjaf> after an htlc succeeds, shouldn't the commitment transaction be altered to remove that htlc output entirely and then modify the balances of each peer? I don't understand where does the htlc-success and htlc-timeout fit
19:44 < darosior> With the exact paragraph you linked, what happens if I have a channel with you, send you an HTLC (appends one offered HTLC output to my commit tx, you append one received HTLC to yours) and then suddenly I broadcast my commitment
19:44 < darosior> tx
19:44 < darosior> I still need to resolve that htlc which conditions are described in the script at the paragraph you linked
19:45 < darosior> (if you don't have the preimage)
19:45 < darosior> But the script is paying to a multisig in that case ! Hence the htlc-timeout transaction :-)
19:46 < fiatjaf> oh
19:46 < fiatjaf> I get it
19:46 < fiatjaf> so you already have an htlc-timeout transaction signed by me
19:47 < fiatjaf> this is so odd
19:47 < fiatjaf> I misread everything, thank you
19:48 < fiatjaf> but why couldn't that htlc-offered of yours be resolved by only your signature + <to_self_delay> op_cltv
19:49 < fiatjaf> ?
19:51 < darosior> "htlc-timeout transaction signed by me" => Yep, https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/02-peer-protocol.md#committing-updates-so-far-commitment_signed "htlc_signature"
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20:28 < ariard> fiatjaf: a 2nd-stage htlc tx only signed by one of the party would let this party circumvent the time-bounded revocation encumbrance 
20:29 < ariard> that's an offchain covenant, by signing spending transaction by all parties you constrain what it should look like
20:31 < fiatjaf> I think I get it
20:31 < fiatjaf> thank you
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 29 00:00:36 2020