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10:22 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:25 < jeremyrubin> BTW has anyone thought about letting miners mine into lightning channels? 10:25 < zmnscpxj__> I have 10:25 < zmnscpxj__> my thought is that you need some kind of less-than operation to be activated 10:25 < jeremyrubin> I have it as a part of CTV, because you don't need signatures 10:26 < jeremyrubin> But you can do it if you do a multi-party getblocktemplate 10:26 < jeremyrubin> I don't think you need less than 10:26 < jeremyrubin> Just call GBT with pay to multisig 10:27 < zmnscpxj__> how would that work out if the channel is dropped onchain while you have a contract to fulfill some difficulty target? 10:27 < jeremyrubin> before you mine, sign the channel setup 10:27 < jeremyrubin> "contract to fulfill some difficulty target?" what? 10:27 < zmnscpxj__> miners mining into LN channels is a contract between a grinder and a pool, right? 10:28 < zmnscpxj__> pool aggregates hashpower, grinder gets paid for every block it produces that matches the lower difficulty target of the pool? 10:28 < jeremyrubin> Nope! 10:28 < jeremyrubin> It's between the pool and an exchange 10:28 < zmnscpxj__> so there is a contract instantiated there that encodes this, right? 10:29 < zmnscpxj__> oh. 10:29 < jeremyrubin> Yep 10:29 < zmnscpxj__> different thing then. 10:29 < jeremyrubin> And then the miners don't need to wait 100 blocks for being able to spend 10:29 < jeremyrubin> because they can route immediately 10:29 < jeremyrubin> They can immediately after mining it route money to all constituents too 10:29 < jeremyrubin> rather than waiting to pay 10:29 < jeremyrubin> If you have all the grinders honest 10:30 < jeremyrubin> you could also make a channel-factory-y thing 10:30 < jeremyrubin> and make a channel to everyone 10:30 < zmnscpxj__> A pool probably comes into this with a lot of liquidity, since the pool aggregates the risk of multiple grinders 10:30 < zmnscpxj__> so playing with their own liquidity does not seem quite as interesting, I think 10:31 < zmnscpxj__> i.e. a pool accepts the risk that it gets a lot of grinders that by chance hit the pool lower difficulty target, but none of them hitting the Bitcoin actual difficulty target 10:31 < zmnscpxj__> so they need some liquidity to survive such random events 10:31 < zmnscpxj__> if so, they probably can survive the liuidity delay of 100 blocks 11:17 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 11:17 -!- gleb [~gleb@159.224.16.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 11:20 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:52 -!- lehnberg [~lehnberg@unaffiliated/lehnberg] has quit [Quit: lehnberg] 12:11 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 12:14 -!- proofofkeags 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[~arowser1@192.69.88.248] has joined #lightning-dev 20:42 -!- Relis [~Relis@148.252.128.232] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:47 -!- arowser [~arowser1@192.69.88.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47 -!- arowser [~arowser1@192.69.88.248] has joined #lightning-dev 20:54 -!- lio17 [~lio17@80.ip-145-239-89.eu] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 20:55 -!- lio17 [~lio17@80.ip-145-239-89.eu] has joined #lightning-dev 21:13 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 21:14 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17 < lndbot> Where the wallet address that the Bitcoins will be spent from when a channel is opened is specified in the RFC? 21:30 < zmnscpxj__> it is not specified at all 21:30 < zmnscpxj__> opener does not need to show it anyway 21:31 < zmnscpxj__> and acceptor will not care, since acceptor has no funds it will put in the channel at the start 21:31 -!- harrigan [~harrigan@ptr-93-89-242-235.ip.airwire.ie] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in] 21:31 < zmnscpxj__> it is committed to in the txid you send in `funding_created`, but is never explicitly shown 21:31 < zmnscpxj__> also, please think in terms of TXOs and not addresses. 21:31 -!- harrigan [~harrigan@ptr-93-89-242-235.ip.airwire.ie] has joined #lightning-dev 21:42 < lndbot> funder embeds it into txid when creating the funding tx? 21:42 < zmnscpxj__> well, yes. A tx refers to the TXO by txid:outnum, and the txid commits to the address because the address is part of the data hashed to generate the txid 21:43 < zmnscpxj__> so the txid passed in `funding_created` indirectly commits to the address 21:43 < zmnscpxj__> actually it indirectly commits to the TXO, but well 21:43 < zmnscpxj__> acceptor does not need to know it 21:44 < zmnscpxj__> things are different for fundchannelv2 proposal by niftynei but that might be out of scope if you are studying *current* lightning 21:44 < zmnscpxj__> I mean what would acceptor do with the information anyway...? 21:45 < zmnscpxj__> and in any case, after `funding_signed` if for example the acceptor realizes the source address was some kind of blacklisted address for some reason (like why for?) it could always `error` it out and force unilateral close 21:45 < zmnscpxj__> but forcing a unilateral close is, well, unilateral anyway, so ---- 21:47 < zmnscpxj__> ahmetkurt95: how familiar are you with how transactions look like? 21:47 < lndbot> i am somewhat familiar 21:48 < zmnscpxj__> okay, so basically the funding tx is, if you squint, the hash of the transaction without the SegWit witness (signatures) 21:48 < zmnscpxj__> the txid I mean 21:48 < zmnscpxj__> and the transaction input refers to the TXO it spends via txid:outnum 21:49 < zmnscpxj__> so the txid of a transaction commits to every TXO the transaction spends 21:49 < zmnscpxj__> because the TXOs are part of what get hashed to get the txid 21:51 < lndbot> funding transaction spends TXO of another transaction basically as in the case of all bitcoin transactions 21:52 < zmnscpxj__> yes 21:52 < zmnscpxj__> and the txid commits to that 21:52 < zmnscpxj__> and the txid is what gets passed to the acceptor on `funding_created` 21:52 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53 < lndbot> by looking at a txid, we can decode the details about the transaction right? 21:53 < zmnscpxj__> no, it is a hash 21:53 < zmnscpxj__> cannot reverse a hash 21:53 < zmnscpxj__> unless the tx has been broadcast 21:53 < zmnscpxj__> which is not going to happen until after `funding_signed` 21:53 < lndbot> okay i see 21:54 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 21:56 < lndbot> i have another question 21:56 < zmnscpxj__> okay 21:59 < lndbot> theoretically speaking: lets say my friend has a BTC wallet that holds 0.1 BTC with the adress 3Gs5NDJUec4YpXQfmDuCEcBtpVo7xmPHar (random address I found). I wanna use this 0.1 BTC in that wallet to create a channel. For this should I create a funding transaction where the input to it will be from this wallet? how would it work theoretically? 22:00 < lndbot> and i do not hold the private keys for my friend's wallet, i need to ask him to sing the TX? 22:02 < zmnscpxj__> yes, you ask them to sign the TX, but ***after*** you have sent `funding_signed`. 22:02 < zmnscpxj__> received `funding_signed`, sorry 22:03 < zmnscpxj__> SegWit lets transactions be in an "unsigned" state with a stable txid even without the signature 22:03 < zmnscpxj__> which is why Lightning needs it 22:03 < zmnscpxj__> `funding_signed` lets the opener unilaterally close the channel in case the acceptor goes offline just after opening 22:04 < lndbot> okay cool, so I can create a txid then send it to my friend, he can sign it, sign the txid back to me and standard LN procedures afterwards? 22:05 < zmnscpxj__> yes, but only get the signature **after** you receive `funding_signed`, that is very vital 22:05 < zmnscpxj__> also you need to broadcast the signed tx to the Bitcoin network 22:05 < zmnscpxj__> the peer will be looking for it onchain 22:06 < zmnscpxj__> also, tx, not txid 22:07 < lndbot> i thought it is okay to get the signature after `accept_channel` message? 22:07 < zmnscpxj__> you send txid to the acceptor because the acceptor does not really care about your funding details 22:07 < zmnscpxj__> no, after `funding_signed` 22:07 < zmnscpxj__> *signature* is not the same as *txid* 22:07 < zmnscpxj__> When spending all-SegWit inputs, a transaction txid is the same when signed and unsigned 22:07 < zmnscpxj__> so you do not need a *signed* tx, just an unsigned tx will do to get the txid 22:08 < zmnscpxj__> **after** `funding_signed` do you get the signature 22:08 < lndbot> okay so I send the TX to my friend, not the txid got it 22:08 < zmnscpxj__> yes 22:08 < zmnscpxj__> so the procedure is: 22:08 < zmnscpxj__> 1. find some funds of your friend you want to use 22:08 < zmnscpxj__> 2. `open_channel` with peer 22:09 < zmnscpxj__> 3. receive `accept_channel` from peer, which contains the pubkey the peer wants to use for this particular channel 22:09 < zmnscpxj__> 4. create a TX from your friend funds to the 2-of-2 of you and peer pubkey you got from `accept_channel`. 22:09 < zmnscpxj__> 5. Get txid from the #4 TX and send it in `funding_created` to peer. 22:10 < zmnscpxj__> 6. receive `funding_signed` from peer, which contains signatures for the unilateral close transaction to let you recover the channel funds 22:10 < zmnscpxj__> 7. Send the unsigned TX to your friend for signing 22:10 < zmnscpxj__> 8. Get the signed TX and broadcast it on the Bitcoin blockchain 22:11 < zmnscpxj__> 9. Wait for it to be deeply confirmed and send `funding_locked` to your peer. 22:11 < zmnscpxj__> 10. In parallel, also wait for `funding_locked` from your peer. 22:11 < zmnscpxj__> 11. Once both of you have agreed that `funding_locked`, you can now use the channel. 22:11 < lndbot> okay the answer I was looking for!! 22:12 < lndbot> much clearer now, thank you 22:15 -!- nicolasb_ [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:15 -!- nicolasb_ [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:15 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:16 < zmnscpxj__> c-lightning packages steps 3->4 above as `fundchannel_start`, and steps 5->6 as `fundchannel_complete`. 22:16 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:23 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:24 < lndbot> okay only naming difference between lnd and c-lightning i guess? RFC is followed by all implementations if I am not wrong 22:24 < zmnscpxj__> RPC command difference, yes 22:24 < zmnscpxj__> do not know if lnd has RPC commands that are that low level 22:24 < zmnscpxj__> have to go ask roasbeef sorry ^^ 22:26 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:27 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:27 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:31 < lndbot> haha no worries 22:47 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Quit: jonatack] 23:06 -!- vincenzopalazzo [~vincent@153.33.4.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:33 -!- laptop [~laptop@85-195-244-64.fiber7.init7.net] has joined #lightning-dev 23:37 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:39 -!- laptop [~laptop@85-195-244-64.fiber7.init7.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] --- Log closed Tue Jul 14 00:00:19 2020