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Like a mined side chain, where all transactions need to signed by validators / miners? 10:35 < CubicEarth> Just looking at all the DeFi mania, which despite having terrible security and decentralization properties, is all the rage. Is LN a suitable foundation to bring that sort of activity over to Bitcoin? 10:37 -!- laptop [~laptop@109.175.150.72] has joined #lightning-dev 10:42 < niftynei> well, in some light running a lightning node is a (very?) low-return liquidity farming activity for bitcoin 10:43 < niftynei> so in that sense it's definitely a DeFi contender, except that instead of handing out new asset tokens for playing you earn more bitcoin 10:44 < niftynei> iiuc, at it's core, the DeFi mania is mostly a ROI mania 10:45 < niftynei> the ROI on lightning channels varies, and i don't think it's as great as 7-10% annual but it's possible to get "greater than zero" /shrug 10:46 < niftynei> how much greater than zero is the real question tho hehehe 10:46 < CubicEarth> I was thinking more about LN being a "platform" for other stuff on top 10:46 < niftynei> yes i know 10:48 < niftynei> you question was "is LN a suitable platform to bring *that sort of activity* over to bitcoin", so explained how LN is already *that sort of activity* 10:49 < niftynei> unless you meant something other than "ROI"? 10:51 < CubicEarth> got it 10:51 < CubicEarth> well, I haven't studied the current crazy to closely, but at first glance it looks like most of it just 100 variations on the pyramid scheme 10:53 < niftynei> i mean you could definitely build a pyramid scheme that used lightning network for payouts 10:53 < cdecker> As for support for sidechains: definitely yes, liquid and elements are supported platforms for c-lightning for example 10:54 < CubicEarth> I am hoping to some of that stuff comes here, because I think among all the attention, some useful tech gets developed 10:54 < cdecker> LN really doesn't care about how transactions get confirmed, as long as we can make some assumptions about how quickly they'll be confirmed 10:54 -!- laptop [~laptop@109.175.150.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55 < CubicEarth> cdecker: Are we ready for an explosion of use on LN? 10:55 < CubicEarth> maybe we are past ready :) 10:55 -!- peter_ [~peter@185.114.3.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56 < cdecker> Well, I don't see DeFi giviing us much of a push here, but LN should be able to absorb an influx of new members easily 10:56 < cdecker> It's more the handholding of new users that'd be the bottleneck 10:57 < CubicEarth> cdecker: well if people need to open channels and put money into BTC / LN in order to participate in the Next Big Thing ... it would be exciting to the infusion of liquidity that could bring 10:58 < CubicEarth> and people's standards for security and quality seem to be approaching zero once again 10:58 < CubicEarth> it's discouraging for sure 10:58 < cdecker> Dunno, it could also lead to them coming in with very high expectations, that then aren't fulfilled, and they won't return later, that's my biggest fear tbh 10:58 < CubicEarth> but also lowers the threshold for making a third layer that is *easy* and *attractive* 11:01 < CubicEarth> (since those seem to be the only requirements for a large segment of the population) 11:35 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #lightning-dev 11:41 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #lightning-dev 12:17 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:20 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #lightning-dev 12:22 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:26 -!- peter_ [~peter@185.114.3.24] has joined #lightning-dev 12:33 -!- musdom [~Thunderbi@202.184.190.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:36 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 12:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined #lightning-dev 12:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 12:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 13:00 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #lightning-dev 14:06 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 14:35 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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https://znc.in] 18:19 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19 -!- wraithm_ [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has joined #lightning-dev 18:19 <+roasbeef> LN is basically a transport network for satoshis, ppl use it when they need to buy/sell stuff or move around funds more cheaply, most of the de-fi stuff is basically just stringing money around in circles as it's all being effectively subsidized with token printing 18:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 18:31 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~textual@mx-ll-171.5.162-140.dynamic.3bb.co.th] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 18:33 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~textual@171.5.162.140] has joined #lightning-dev 18:35 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #lightning-dev 18:41 -!- musdom [~Thunderbi@202.184.190.229] has quit [Quit: musdom] 18:49 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #lightning-dev 18:55 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 19:01 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 19:06 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:16 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 19:22 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-240-45-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-240-45-224-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #lightning-dev 20:00 -!- rojiro [~rojiro@gateway/tor-sasl/rojiro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00 -!- rojiro [~rojiro@gateway/tor-sasl/rojiro] has joined #lightning-dev 21:01 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01 -!- arowser [~arowser1@204.124.180.72] has joined #lightning-dev 21:17 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 21:22 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33 < CubicEarth> roasbeef: For sure. I wouldn't want sometime to distract from the fundamentals. I was just thinking of some sort of gamification that could onboard a ton of people. They would come for the defi games, and hopefully stay when the realize "Oh cool, I can pay for stuff too!" 21:33 < zmnscpxj_> keysend is not enough? 21:35 < CubicEarth> what's that? 21:35 < zmnscpxj_> send a millisatoshi to a random public node, with an attached message for fun 21:36 < zmnscpxj_> tho I guess not really much of a game, so yes 21:36 < CubicEarth> lol 21:36 < CubicEarth> I'm thinking of something that can induce fomo 21:37 < martindale> do me a solid and make ZKCP work over lightning 21:37 < zmnscpxj_> not need that, just need something to trigger reward circuitry of puny humans 21:38 < CubicEarth> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 21:39 < zmnscpxj_> https://twitter.com/kylepulver/status/1305309191859363840 21:40 < martindale> best explanation of altcoins yet 21:40 < martindale> "yield farming" 21:40 < zmnscpxj_> hahahahahaha 21:43 < CubicEarth> I think the fun thing would be if the game incentivized the very rapid movement of small amounts of sats 21:44 < CubicEarth> And so all of a sudden, there is 100x or more the activity on LN 21:47 < CubicEarth> If mns = K and xj_ - xj_ ≠ 0 then zmnscpxj_ = ZKCP 21:48 < zmnscpxj_> I agree 22:23 -!- bitromortac [user@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 22:27 < rusty> I just want to pay for distributed storage over LN, ideally served back via BT. Would be great for (encrypted!) backups. 22:27 < zmnscpxj_> BT? Bittorrent? 22:32 < martindale> yeah, but how to guarantee delivery of response and not just claiming funds because they have the file? multisig + HTLC ? 22:32 < zmnscpxj_> pay half now to store, pay half later to retrieve 22:33 < zmnscpxj_> simple, and technique is used all the time in normal commerce 22:34 -!- MrPaz [~paz@24.14.251.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:35 < martindale> the pay half later part though, either party can scam the other 22:36 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: was thinking that you calc CPU cost, bw cost and storage cost. Then derive what you charge to validate (using hash prefix), serve, and store. 22:36 < zmnscpxj_> with sufficient zk proofs, the probability of that drops 22:36 < rusty> martindale: sure, but you store redundantly. For me this would be a backup-backup. 22:37 < zmnscpxj_> content storer provides encrypted form of stored data, together with proof that the stored data is correct and the encryption is of the correct data. 22:37 < zmnscpxj_> then provides an invoice that will reveal the decryption key if paid 22:38 < zmnscpxj_> probably needs EC magic, though 22:38 < martindale> i mean you can always refuse to pay, need zk / homomorphism of some sort, deliver encrypted file -> means multiple rounds 22:38 < zmnscpxj_> <---- not competent at EC magic 22:38 < zmnscpxj_> refuse to pay then means you just downloaded random bytes that you cannot use 22:39 < martindale> I get the feeling some kind of homomorphic sha256 verifier that lets you recover key when hosting party spends original funds 22:39 < zmnscpxj_> I do not think it would work with sha256 though, sadly 22:40 < zmnscpxj_> *shrug* 23:11 < CubicEarth> Some kind of fraud proof, where the storage provider locks up funds, and then you can submit arbitrary challenges for which they would have to have the data to answer. If they can't, you get the bounty 23:12 < zmnscpxj_> how do you know how to build the challenge without storing a good amount of data yourself? 23:12 < zmnscpxj_> hmmm random ranges of bytes? 23:12 < martindale> random challenges are good for checking that they hold the data, but you can still refuse to pay / they can refuse to send 23:18 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev 23:20 < rusty> martindale: agreed, I think you're best off keeping it simple. 1 month storage includes 1 free check (send seed, they return SHA256(seed | data), 1 free retrieve. Clients should randomly poll to see if the data does exist, and will be served. 23:21 < zmnscpxj_> they can still refuse to send for your "free retrieve" *shrug* 23:21 < rusty> Anyway, it's one of the few things I can see myself paying for: I'd set up my backup machine to simply mirror all contents of the backup dir to this. I'm happy to toss some sats, and it's ~free for many people to serve such blocks. 23:21 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: always true. 23:22 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: The BT thing means it also becomes a way to share large files, and storer gets paid, which is nice. But a simple webserver version would be enough for me. 23:22 < zmnscpxj_> BT = bittorrent? 23:23 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: yes. 23:25 < zmnscpxj_> Since data is stored encrypted, presumably owner needs some kind of cryptographic private key 23:25 < zmnscpxj_> and data-owner is responsible for this? 23:25 < zmnscpxj_> I mean responsible for keeping that private key 23:26 < martindale> maybe pay-per-chunk could be used, with graduated penalty transactions in the "contract" used for non-deliveries 23:26 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: for my case, yes. 23:26 < rusty> (my backups are all encrypted at rest) 23:27 < zmnscpxj_> because maybe the seed for the check could be sha256(seed) 23:33 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 23:41 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: it needs to change every time, so it's up to the challenger. 23:41 < zmnscpxj_> you mentioned "1 free check" so 23:42 < zmnscpxj_> also, could use a shachain 23:42 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:43 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: the reason for "one free" is to avoid discouraging checking, which is a structural issue (if people don't check, then bad providers can hide for longer). 23:43 < martindale> bonded payment for successful delivery is probably sufficient, payment for successful challenge/response could improve longevity and inform host's pruning decision — guaranteeing delivery is the remaining problem, IMO 23:44 < zmnscpxj_> you cannot even guarantee internet connectivity, so guaranteeing delivery is not something I think is solvable by cryptography 23:45 < martindale> maybe for one node, but you can improve availability with many replicas — maybe a "first to deliver" market 23:46 < rusty> martindale: yeah, you can't do that AFAICT. Say server uses OpenTimestamps to prove it possesses data (use blockhash as sha prefix), and gives out a crypto receipt for all blocks it stores. Still not enough, since that doesn't mean it *will* serve it. 23:46 < rusty> So you're down to: repeat business requires that you deliver on demand. 23:46 < zmnscpxj_> well, that does give an economic incentive 23:47 < rusty> Unf I can't think of a way to socialize the info "I use XYZ corp and they cheated me!" 23:47 < zmnscpxj_> reddit 23:47 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: :) 23:48 -!- scalability-junk [sid6422@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dtwwkrhnhzwtrstm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48 -!- scalability-junk [sid6422@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zdpsdcprmfdpyuct] has joined #lightning-dev 23:48 < rusty> I mean, you can come up with a system where I prove XYZ corp promised to store and anyone can pay them to try to try retrieve it. But XYZ can always re-enable it when caught. 23:50 < rusty> Probably good enough, TBH. Esp if it's month-to-month standard. THis actually fits well with offers, where user effectively injects info into the invoice, which is signed by provider. 23:50 < zmnscpxj_> do the pay-for-retrieve onchain. Then if it the bond is spent by locktime branch that is proof of non-delivery at the time 23:51 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: bond doesn't work. They can prove they hold the data, not that they'll serve it. 23:51 < zmnscpxj_> No, I mean the pay-for-retrieve 23:51 < zmnscpxj_> you download the server-encrypted data you saved, then pay for the encryption key 23:52 < zmnscpxj_> you only create the UTXO once you received the server-encrypted data 23:52 < zmnscpxj_> and all that is missing is the decryption key from the server 23:52 -!- robmyers [sid14471@gnu/social/robmyers] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:53 -!- wallet42__ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kglqdbvrlpwzgiep] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 -!- prusnak [sid403625@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nficguliffcrpcdy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 -!- zmanian_ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cecollifvvxehwzf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53 -!- yakitorifoodie__ [sid338452@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cwoclnqolniyfqcu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53 -!- dabura667 [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ixzqgjkifphthhqo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53 -!- digi_james [sid281632@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cziqtxzbhovrsgzp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbhzzktevfnybxgs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 -!- Aleru [sid403553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xqtgjdkzjabnbakl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:53 -!- rompert__ [sid13298@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ffgiaewfcaezgbpr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:53 -!- gertjaap_ [sid322815@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sxynjjfrpruooghr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 -!- chm-diederichs_ [sid360714@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-srhivkipggmcwxmt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53 < rusty> zmnscpxj_: trivial to DoS though, request everything, don't pay? Amounts are small enough that you should just pay, get. 23:53 -!- drbrule [sid395654@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tngpbubfdzzoidop] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54 < zmnscpxj_> *shrug* 23:54 < zmnscpxj_> probably infeasible that way then 23:54 < zmnscpxj_> so.... reddit it is! 23:54 < rusty> Yeah, I think so :) 23:55 -!- prusnak [sid403625@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fxisbvxyftpvqwzu] has joined #lightning-dev 23:55 -!- yakitorifoodie__ [sid338452@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ofgxgaeflixrmemp] has joined #lightning-dev 23:55 -!- drbrule [sid395654@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iplpgvawjbrmytpt] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- robmyers [sid14471@gnu/social/robmyers] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfjckqeliwasccsp] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- zmanian_ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bfjrmzfumzpxezas] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- wallet42__ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmodawzjplmhfcoq] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- Aleru [sid403553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eiqgrrqpwlwajdiw] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- digi_james [sid281632@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-onkyiigagbyecwyz] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- dabura667 [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oselpuvdcicotuqo] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- chm-diederichs_ [sid360714@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-opfvphbmxxyvnwrf] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- gertjaap_ [sid322815@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-apgijbxtfimtgopk] has joined #lightning-dev 23:56 -!- rompert__ [sid13298@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wyoxpymirjbatgli] has joined #lightning-dev 23:58 < martindale> can a ZKCP be useful here, where host decryption key is part of spend script, with ZK verifier checking 1) integrity of encrypted data and 2) validity of decryption pubkeyhash? 23:58 < zmnscpxj_> "rusty: zmnscpxj_: trivial to DoS though, request everything, don't pay? Amounts are small enough that you should just pay, get" --- Log closed Fri Sep 18 00:00:22 2020