--- Log opened Fri Jan 29 00:00:29 2021 00:01 -!- bitconner [~root@138.68.244.82] has joined #lightning-dev 00:21 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 00:59 -!- riclas [riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:08 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:52 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:645:200:162f:3c9a:cd45:284b:ebea] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #lightning-dev 03:40 -!- rdymac_ is now known as rdymac 03:53 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:645:200:162f:49b1:ddbe:1b3:6b46] has joined #lightning-dev 04:09 -!- ThisAsYou___ [sid214210@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-llratfigmkomzviy] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:13 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:42 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev 04:51 -!- th0th [~th0th@gateway/tor-sasl/th0th] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52 -!- th0th [~th0th@gateway/tor-sasl/th0th] has joined #lightning-dev 05:00 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: midnight, tiker[m], cameron[m] 05:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: midnight, tiker[m], cameron[m], _flow_ 05:01 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: lightningbot, Emcy, fiatjaf2, cryptapus 05:01 -!- midnight [~midnight@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:01 -!- cameron[m] [cameronots@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-affthvsgybachizo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: lightningbot, fiatjaf2, Emcy, cryptapus 05:01 < cdecker> We might as well stop saying "fair" to be honest, since that's a very subjective term. Rather I'd think about loss-balancing, and the costs-by-cause principle (those causing a cost should bear the brunt of the cost) 05:03 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sword_smith, quartermonk[m] 05:03 -!- midnight [~midnight@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #lightning-dev 05:03 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sulwoxgyopxoqgnl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:03 -!- Netsplit over, joins: sword_smith, quartermonk[m] 05:04 -!- lucen[m] [lucenmshrm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-eznwpvfmjmbsbfse] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:04 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-sjojevqwtrqcljfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04 -!- tiker[m] [tikerfunky@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tiqnjacbwiywwgks] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:04 -!- quartermonk[m] [quartermon@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jqvrfqylutljbgzo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:05 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fbrpvvksdhpwfpai] has joined #lightning-dev 05:13 -!- kloinka_ [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 05:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:37 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:38 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 05:39 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 05:39 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-biqejbzokdhpxrqz] has joined #lightning-dev 05:39 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev 05:42 -!- lucen[m] [lucenmshrm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-isjrkckirhpcynnl] has joined #lightning-dev 05:44 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 05:47 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-biqejbzokdhpxrqz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48 -!- lucen[m] [lucenmshrm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-isjrkckirhpcynnl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev 06:14 -!- tiker[m] [tikerfunky@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jbxewiedvudjgudk] has joined #lightning-dev 06:21 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 06:27 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-0-143.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:37 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rzperrufqkizuekc] has joined #lightning-dev 06:37 -!- cameron[m] [cameronots@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-aqdzctkeylxewyvy] has joined #lightning-dev 06:37 -!- lucen[m] [lucenmshrm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nmbmpelmuugwohua] has joined #lightning-dev 06:37 -!- quartermonk[m] [quartermon@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kqtfsreghucwqgfe] has joined #lightning-dev 06:42 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@androzani.sysevolve.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:42 -!- pigeons is now known as Guest30520 06:57 -!- Guest30520 is now known as pigeons 07:48 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 07:56 -!- jonatack [jon@gateway/vpn/airvpn/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-88.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #lightning-dev 08:44 < ariard> if we adopt costs-by-cause principle my interpretation would be that the fees burden relies on the closing initiator, the counterparty might have different liquidity preferences and would like to keep it opened 08:45 < aj> ariard: you can "initiate" the close by going silent and leaving the other guy with no option but to unilaterally close though 08:45 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-88.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49 < ariard> aj: yeah I know about that kind of pitfalls, anchor output make it even worst, just circular loop a HTLC and then go offline, your counterparty will have to unilaterally close 08:50 < ariard> maybe channel jamming mitigatons will help there, makng the cost of holding a HTLC delivery non-null 09:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping 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joined #lightning-dev 10:42 -!- EndFiat [EndFiat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/endfiat] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:43 -!- EndFiat [EndFiat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/endfiat] has joined #lightning-dev 10:47 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 10:56 -!- laptop_ [~laptop@ppp-0-143.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:58 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-0-143.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 11:04 -!- worc3131 [~quassel@2a02:c7f:dcc4:6500:217b:6c7a:eac3:3be9] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:20 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 11:25 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 11:25 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 11:53 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 12:00 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 12:29 <+roasbeef> zmnscpxj: yeh initiator pays, I think we're agreeing? 12:30 <+roasbeef> cdecker: can you elaborate? antyhign that tries to do more proportional accounting for utilization seems to get pretty complicated quickly, and then you run into edge cases of "what if they can't pay due to XXX" 12:30 <+roasbeef> thou who created the utxo shalt pay for its demise 12:32 <+roasbeef> ariard: the party doing that still has a cost incurred since they need to eventually sweep that HTLC, also a co-op close transaction is much smaller than a "fully loaded" commitment transaction, w/ taproot the savings is prob multiplied as well due to single sig savings and script spend overhead 12:49 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 13:08 < ariard> roasbeef: note the circular loop, this HTLC is coming from the "honest"-side balance, cost to sweep it stays also its burden, adding to unilateral bumping fees if default committed are too low ? 13:09 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 13:09 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 13:12 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:17 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lightning-dev 13:26 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 14:25 <+roasbeef> ariard: ah I see now, seems distinct tho right? since a co-op close can't happen in either case w/ an active HTLC, "somehow get the other side to close so I can not wait" is partially addressed by increase the csv 1 on the remote party during a force clsoe to be symmetric as suggested in the past 14:28 <+roasbeef> with anchors it's already all p2wsh now, so it's a matter of "increasing the 1 to an N" 14:29 <+roasbeef> tradeoff being SCB-like recovery flows need to wait longer to sweep those coins 14:29 <+roasbeef> and they can't just have that output entirely belong to some base wallet as ppl have requested in teh past (coins go right to wallet, well they do, but wallet needs to do a p2wsh script import) 14:32 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev 14:50 < zmnscpxj> roasbeef: yes we are agreeing 16:00 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rtrvbrteldnwftvj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:20 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 16:33 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 16:34 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 16:57 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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