--- Log opened Mon Jul 03 00:00:48 2023 00:20 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 00:21 -!- test__ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 00:23 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:24 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 00:25 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:27 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 00:27 -!- test__ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:32 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:46 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 00:48 < realtbast[m]> Hey all, who's writing the spec proposal for the new(er) coop close mechanism? Is Rusty doing it? Otherwise if no-one volonteers I can write it up to get that moving soon. 00:51 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:55 -!- gnusha_ [~gnusha@user/gnusha] has quit [Server closed connection] 00:55 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@user/gnusha] has joined #lightning-dev 00:55 -!- Topic for #lightning-dev: Bitcoin Lightning Network Development: Be Excellent To Each Other! Logging at http://gnusha.org/lightning-dev/ 00:55 -!- Topic set by rusty [~rusty@203.221.41.134] [Tue Jun 8 23:04:01 2021] 00:55 [Users #lightning-dev] 00:55 [ _aj_ ] [ darosior ] [ jb55 ] [ roasbeef ] 00:55 [ achow101 ] [ DeanGuss ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ RubenSomsen ] 00:55 [ ademan[m] ] [ dergoegge ] [ jespada ] [ sgiath ] 00:55 [ adiabat_ ] [ dlb76 ] [ jkczyz ] [ ShotokanZH ] 00:55 [ angusp ] [ dongcarl ] [ johnzweng ] [ sr_gi[m] ] 00:55 [ ariard ] [ emzy ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ td001 ] 00:55 [ arik__ ] [ faceface ] [ jonatack2 ] [ test_ ] 00:55 [ b42 ] [ FelixWeis_ ] [ kalle ] [ timokrgr ] 00:55 [ b_101 ] [ Flow ] [ kanzure ] [ tinova4 ] 00:55 [ berndj ] [ freesprung ] [ katsu_ ] [ valwal ] 00:55 [ bitdex ] [ ghost43 ] [ koolazer ] [ vincenzopalazzo] 00:55 [ BlueMatt ] [ gleb ] [ ksedgwic ] [ warmhug ] 00:55 [ BlueMatt[m]] [ gnusha ] [ lightningbot ] [ warren ] 00:55 [ busch ] [ greypw2546002161] [ michaelfolkson] [ waxwing ] 00:55 [ bw_ ] [ guggero ] [ moneyball___ ] [ wpaulino ] 00:55 [ cdecker[m] ] [ halseth ] [ mschmoock ] [ yonson ] 00:55 [ cm ] [ harding ] [ Nebraskka ] [ Zenton ] 00:55 [ cotsuka ] [ henghonglee[m] ] [ pinheadmz ] 00:55 [ cottongin ] [ inara ] [ rachelfish ] 00:55 [ cryptapus ] [ Jackielove4u ] [ realtbast[m] ] 00:55 -!- Irssi: #lightning-dev: Total of 77 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 77 normal] 00:55 -!- Channel #lightning-dev created Wed May 19 07:21:41 2021 00:57 -!- Irssi: Join to #lightning-dev was synced in 147 secs 01:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:08 -!- riclas [~riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:21 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 01:30 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 01:58 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:32 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 02:36 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:06 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 03:10 -!- riclas [riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 03:11 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:25 -!- rachelfish [~rachel@192.199.243.147] has quit [Server closed connection] 03:25 -!- rachelfish [~rachel@192.199.243.147] has joined #lightning-dev 03:26 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 03:29 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 03:33 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:33 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:47 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 03:59 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:08 -!- tinova4 [~tinova@217.160.209.135] has quit [Server closed connection] 04:09 -!- tinova4 [~tinova@217.160.209.135] has joined #lightning-dev 04:14 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 04:25 < vincenzopalazzo> I also have some free time to write it down, so let me know if need help 04:43 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:10 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@c-98-226-43-69.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 05:13 -!- jonatack2 [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14 -!- jonatack2 [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #lightning-dev 05:25 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@c-98-226-43-69.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has joined #lightning-dev 06:05 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:90d8:d93a:2456:5ea7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:44 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-126-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:01 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@98.226.43.69] has joined #lightning-dev 07:23 < BlueMatt[m]> I assume there's no spec meeting today 07:54 < instagibbs> my 2 cents re: musig nonces in normal operation for taproot channels, I had implemented all this nonce stuff for ln-symmetry since it was actually less work to do it for both normal operation and cooperative in some ways. BUT I didn't have to persist secret data because I am not worried about complete transactions (no toxic data). I just held 07:54 < instagibbs> partial signatures/sessions and persisted wherever. I think it's materially different tradeoff due to ln-penalty requirements. 07:54 -!- _tnull [~tnull@user/tnull/x-8645464] has joined #lightning-dev 07:56 < realtbast[m]> Yep, let's rest for a bit and resume them in two weeks! 07:58 < BlueMatt[m]> there was a proposal to shift taproot unilateral close to a 2-of-2 script path (keeping the 2-of-2 keypath only for coop close. 07:59 < BlueMatt[m]> that needs to be discussed sooner rather than later, probably 07:59 < BlueMatt[m]> but can be done async doesn't need a full meeting for it 07:59 < BlueMatt[m]> @roasbeef and @arik__ probably have thoughts 07:59 < BlueMatt[m]> avoids all the nonce shit, but means more on-chain footprint for unilateral close 08:05 < realtbast[m]> interesting, it's a hard trade-off to make though: we definitely don't want to incentivize unilateral close, but when your peer disappears and forces your hand (which happens extremely often for LSPs), it would be nice if that didn't end up being too costly 08:05 < realtbast[m]> avoiding the nonce shit is just to make the proposal less complex, or is there another reason? 08:06 < BlueMatt[m]> i think mostly to make it less complex 08:06 < BlueMatt[m]> i know the CLN folks had discussed it in their brunch or whatever, it originated from them. 08:06 < BlueMatt[m]> or maybe Zmn 08:06 < BlueMatt[m]> I mean it is a lot less complex.... 08:06 < instagibbs> his comment prompted my thoughts because I hadn't considered the toxic data aspect 08:07 < instagibbs> (zmn) 08:10 < instagibbs> last week after learning that nonces had to be persisted for ln-penalty, couldn't stop making faces :P 08:10 < BlueMatt[m]> yea, its pretty gross 08:15 < realtbast[m]> Right, if we make this a script path spend we don't have to deal with nonces at all except when splicing and mutual closing, it's true that this could be pretty nice in terms of simplicity. 08:15 < instagibbs> those 2 cases you never have to persist, on reestablish you just toss nonces and start over 08:15 < realtbast[m]> exactly, this is quite nice 08:18 < realtbast[m]> I wonder why we didn't consider that before, I hadn't thought about it before as I thought it was quite natural to use the keypath everywhere, but it's true that it's really an order of magnitude less complex 08:19 < instagibbs> I'd considered the same structure for ln-symmetry as well for another reason: it allows for a adapter sig fair exchange for 2nd stage tx, without roundtrips. Probably not needed here, just saying out loud 08:19 < instagibbs> s/needed/possible/ 08:49 < arik__> one should add though that wrt handling nonces at all, if you have to implement safe storage or derivation for closing negotiations, that same mechanism should be quite trivially reusable for regular channel operations. So depending on how compex channel closes are gonna be (which, afaic, is still tbd), the marginal cost of adding musig throughout should not be that high 08:53 < arik__> I guess unless we modify channel close to only send nonces once a fee agreement is reached 08:55 < instagibbs> necessity of persistence of nonce data seems tied to revocation path only 08:55 < BlueMatt[m]> Well we were discussing using fresh nonces on reconnect so you don’t have to persist those at all? Only the fully signed closing tx. 08:56 < arik__> it was always fresh nonces on reconnect 08:57 < BlueMatt[m]> Right I think with this proposal we don’t ever have to persist nonces? 08:57 < instagibbs> I'd really be surprised it was necessary... 08:57 < arik__> yeah I think, if we figure out closing, we indeed wouldn't need to 08:58 < arik__> and what's more, there wouldn't be a local or remote nonce 08:58 < instagibbs> It's the one piece of ln-symmetry I didn't actually implement, so my spec might be wrong <_< 08:58 < BlueMatt[m]> I think there was an in-principle agreement on closing 09:00 < BlueMatt[m]> which was quite simple and definitely doesn't require nonce storage 09:03 < realtbast[m]> That's what I understood as well, but not sure who will submit the spec PR for that new closing protocol? Would be worth having it soon to make sure it gets rid of nonce storage in the taproot case 09:05 < BlueMatt[m]> if no one else has time someone on our team can do it. that's a separate question of whether we should do this no-nonce-storage change 09:05 < BlueMatt[m]> which is a rather large change 09:06 < BlueMatt[m]> BlueMatt[m]: somehow I had cached that rusty (is he not on irc?) had already written it in-person, but I may just be assuming rusty will do all our work :) 09:07 < arik__> I think we can do it, unless Zmn wants to 09:08 < BlueMatt[m]> we should probably figure out if lnd is willing to change all their code to do it, though :) 09:08 < BlueMatt[m]> even though it makes the whole thing simpler 09:09 < instagibbs> more thinking about *safer*, potato pohtahto I guess 09:10 < moneyball___> Safer makes this more compelling to change at this point than simpler IMO 09:12 < realtbast[m]> To be honest, I think it could be worth it: the fact that there is running code (but that is not deployed on mainnet) doesn't justify avoiding a change that makes the spec and implementation much less complex and safer 09:13 < BlueMatt[m]> True 09:13 < realtbast[m]> If in the long run, we think this is a better way of doing taproot channels, we should definitely do it now. Also, I suspect that it mostly means removing code, without many additions, which should be somewhat simple? 09:13 < realtbast[m]> Painful, but not complex to change? 09:13 < BlueMatt[m]> open question of if its "the better way" - to your point it will result in a bit bigger unilateral closes which sucks for some who do that regularly 09:14 < BlueMatt[m]> quite a bit bigger, even - an extra sig plus the cost of switching to a script path. 09:14 < instagibbs> 41 vbytes or so from my monkey math 09:15 < BlueMatt[m]> ouchie 09:16 < instagibbs> control block (33) + two more pubkeys(34 * 2) + additional sig (65) ~ 166 WU 09:17 < instagibbs> (lots of off by one push errors included) 09:17 < BlueMatt[m]> yea, probably 09:18 < instagibbs> 3 additional keys and one extra sig are the meat of it 09:51 < instagibbs> To put into perspective, it's about the same WU as including another balance output or so in your commit tx 11:40 -!- jonatack2 [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.8] 11:44 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #lightning-dev 11:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 12:34 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 12:36 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 12:57 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 13:00 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:28 -!- r1clas [riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 18:30 -!- riclas [riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:09 -!- r1clas [riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:15 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 19:19 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #lightning-dev 21:37 -!- b_101 [~robert@187.202.249.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:43 -!- b_101 [~robert@187.202.249.157] has joined #lightning-dev 21:47 -!- b_101 [~robert@187.202.249.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:24 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 22:27 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32 -!- b_101 [~robert@187.202.249.157] has joined #lightning-dev 22:36 -!- b_101 [~robert@187.202.249.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@98.226.43.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58 -!- ademan[m] [~ademan@2001:470:69fc:105::1:16db] has quit [Server closed connection] 23:58 -!- ademan[m] [~ademan@2001:470:69fc:105::1:16db] has joined #lightning-dev --- Log closed Tue Jul 04 00:00:49 2023