--- Log opened Tue Oct 17 00:00:58 2023 00:16 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@157-131-201-29.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lightning-dev 00:20 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@157-131-201-29.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34 < realtbast[m]> Ok so I was completely wrong 😅, we do apply such channel_updates to our graph, and will retransmit it through staggered broadcast... 00:37 < realtbast[m]> So the right fix would be to update the spec to stop sending channel updates in onion errors entirely, and instead only provide the minimum amount of information required about the error (e.g. a max-htlc-amount-msat field for liquidity issues). That will create some backwards-compatibility issues, but it's the right thing to do in the long term. Meanwhile, we should stop retransmitting those updates (but applying them to our graph is 00:37 < realtbast[m]> fine, isn't it?). 00:39 < realtbast[m]> However, can you detail why you say that it's trivial to identify the sender? If you receive the channel update immediately, it means the sender was the previous node. But if you receive it after 30 seconds, it only means that the sender is one hop away from you, but you don't know who that is? And if it's 60 seconds, it's likely 2 hops away from you, etc 01:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 < realtbast[m]> s/channel_updates/channel\_updates/, s/it/them/ 01:07 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 01:08 -!- riclas [~riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:11 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:12 < realtbast[m]> > if you get a permenent channel failure error, do you remove the channel info from your graph?... (full message at ) 01:29 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f9:2a:2510::2] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:35 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@static.239.36.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lightning-dev 01:35 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@static.239.36.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:43 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f9:3081:504d::2] has joined #lightning-dev 02:03 -!- riclas [~riclas@26.27.71.148.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 03:09 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f9:3081:504d::2] has quit [Quit: Mahalo] 03:13 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f9:3081:504d::2] has joined #lightning-dev 03:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 03:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56 -!- flooded [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has joined #lightning-dev 04:00 -!- test_ [flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 04:27 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 04:42 -!- warmhug [~warmhug@gateway/tor-sasl/warmhug] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43 -!- warmhug [~warmhug@gateway/tor-sasl/warmhug] has joined #lightning-dev 04:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 05:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:09 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.161.41.51] has joined #lightning-dev 05:16 -!- flooded is now known as _flood 06:52 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #lightning-dev 07:26 < BlueMatt[m]> "So the right fix would be to..." <- Not fine if someone can connect to you and gossip-query or full-sync to get it, no 07:27 < BlueMatt[m]> "However, can you detail why..." <- What if you never tell anyone else about that update? You can go ask everyone for the latest update and figure out who the sender is 07:29 < BlueMatt[m]> Its not hard currently to connect to every lightning node (that isn’t a non-forwarding node) 07:29 < realtbast[m]> > What if you never tell anyone else about that update? You can go ask everyone for the latest update and figure out who the sender is 07:29 < realtbast[m]> Got it, if you connect to everyone before the staggered rebroadcast, the only node who will give you that update is the payment sender. Indeed. 07:30 < BlueMatt[m]> Right 07:30 < realtbast[m]> so it would really be safer to simply not apply those channel updates to our graph at all, to be 100% sure that we can't accidentally leak them 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> Yep 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> That’s what we’re doing 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> And I think what everyone should do 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> Then also remove them cause why not 07:31 < realtbast[m]> it should be the failing intermediate node's responsibility to just broadcast that channel update to the whole network if they want it to be taken into account 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> Yep 07:31 < realtbast[m]> If you remove them from your graph then you have the same privacy issue, don't you? 07:31 < BlueMatt[m]> And obviously make sure you won’t retry the same path again, but I assume everyone already has logic for that 07:32 < BlueMatt[m]> Even if indirectly 07:32 < realtbast[m]> The failing node would connect to everyone and ask for the latest channel update for the channel, and the node that fails to send back a channel update was the payment sender 07:32 < BlueMatt[m]> realtbast[m]: Yes you do, but it’s a one time use thing, which I think moderates it? 07:32 < BlueMatt[m]> But that’s also why I asked for advice/what others did 07:32 < BlueMatt[m]> Do 07:33 < BlueMatt[m]> Problem is not all ldk nodes (and in fact currently we don’t bother for any) can look at the chain to detect closures 07:34 < BlueMatt[m]> (Speaking of which, nodes really should announce a disable update when a channel closes…) 07:49 < realtbast[m]> > Yes you do, but it’s a one time use thing, which I think moderates it? 07:49 < realtbast[m]> For permanent failures, sure, that would be totally fine. 07:50 < realtbast[m]> > (Speaking of which, nodes really should announce a disable update when a channel closes…) 07:50 < realtbast[m]> We'll definitely need to do this once we have private gossip and people can't rely on watching the chain to detect channels closing, so it's indeed probably worth doing right now. 07:50 < realtbast[m]> I thought we did that, but it looks like we currently don't. 07:56 -!- cotsuka [~cotsuka@user/cotsuka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58 -!- cotsuka [~cotsuka@user/cotsuka] has joined #lightning-dev 08:08 < BlueMatt[m]> when I first read the BOLTs I assumed the disable bit meant, basically "peer disconnected or channel closed", so we've always announced on closure 08:09 < BlueMatt[m]> just seems like a nice thing to do 08:09 < BlueMatt[m]> and the whole "watch the chain to detect closure" always seemed like an insane thing to do 08:09 < BlueMatt[m]> (if a node is online to close, its online to generate a close update 08:09 < BlueMatt[m]> ) 08:24 < realtbast[m]> I agree, it makes sense to send a disabled channel update when closing a channel, I created an issue in eclair for it 08:25 < BlueMatt[m]> thanks! 08:44 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5] 09:13 -!- proofofkeags 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