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00:30 < lightningtester> afternoon, whats the command to install go. the one on the installation page doesnt work
00:31 < lightningtester> (sudo apt-get install golang-1.8-go)
00:33 < lightningtester> nevermind, got it. next noob question coming soon
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03:20 < macks> roasbeef: but by e.g. keeping the commitment key offline you secure the funds locked in the channel but what about the funds you *actually* received via LN because someone sends you a signed transaction?
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03:21 < macks> I'm talking about the exact amount a user would type into his LN wallet before sending it to my site
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05:56 < mlz> macks, LN is for micropayments, you don't keep all your life savings in your LN wallet, the LN wallet is just like any crypto wallet for you to keep spending money to buy stuff like coffee, food.. and not to be used as cold storage
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06:15 < macks> mlz: it's not about life savings. It's about a webapplication where I apply some logic to put payments from a certain amount (>$15) into cold storage while they remain on the site (up to 2 weeks)
06:17 < mlz> macks, would love for you to test all LN software and break it
06:17 < mlz> try to break it*
06:17 < macks> ?     
06:18 < macks> why would I try to break LN? Let me focus on 1 project at a time plz. I'm not here for Lightning QA but because I want to actually use it (which would of course also generate some qa)
06:18 < macks> but it looks like its not really usable for my case
06:19 < mlz> macks, "breaking software" is to make it better, not sure why you don't understand, if you're concerned about LN, it would be great if you test your concern and try to see if that would actually happen
06:20 < mlz> macks, what's your use case?
06:21 < macks> I have a site where users can sent payments to that are usually in the $0.10 to $20 range. The payments will stay up to 2 weeks on my site but not longer
06:21 < macks> then they will get paid out
06:21 < macks> wrote it for bitcoin originally but that usecase died with the direction bitcoin is going right now. So right now I have bitcoin cash and ethereum included
06:22 < macks> and was thinking about including bitcoin via LN
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06:25 < macks> but if I can't apply the same logic (that from a certain amount and time that the coins will stay on the site I'll put them into cold storage) then using LN would increase the amount of coins that are in my hot wallet
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06:26 < macks> that's why I'm here and asking that question and I don't understand why that means that I should "try to break things". That's a question regarding the specification. And if noone here can answer it I'll invest my time into other things
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06:31 < lxer> i guess he means to 'test things'
06:32 < mlz> yea, he doesn't understand it
06:32 < sovjet> because if he breaks, devs will fix :)
06:32 < mlz> :D     
06:33 < mlz> macks, your usecase is common, have you tried out bitrefill LND?
06:33 < sovjet> mlz do you have in mind any ETA when this LN would go live ?
06:34 < mlz> sovjet, mainnet.yalls.org is live now
06:34 < sovjet> oh! what is that site about ?
06:35 < sovjet> Read and write articles, with Lightning Network micropayments.
06:35 < mlz> pay to read contents
06:35 < mlz> yup     
06:35 < macks> Ok I imagine that the question whether or not I can put LN funds I received into cold storage is something some people here might now
06:36 < macks> if you don't - fine, but maybe someone else does
06:36 < sovjet> macks: stick around a bit longer, i bet someone here knows it
06:36 < macks> yep     
06:37 < tumi> i'm establishing a channel between eclair wallet (funder) and lnd and it looks like the client somehow missed the funding_locked reply. Restarting eclair wallet does not solve the issue
06:38 < mlz> tumi, i think one of the eclair devs is in channel #lightning-dev
06:38 < tumi> I think this output (debuglevel set to INFO) is relevant:
06:38 < tumi> 2017-12-10 14:35:40.949 [INF] HSWC: Received re-establishment message from remote side for channel(20a0ae2d4aa6ee00c4b975ffcc0e38b0616393aa7e9b7081a14a3d5481cbf3b5:0)
06:38 < tumi> 2017-12-10 14:35:40.979 [INF] FNDG: Already handling fundingLocked for ChannelID(d06eacc74cfdc031f758477e62e1969a29dc4e55d520ffc6f15afd1051997e7c), ignoring.
06:40 < mlz> tumi, join Eclair discussion:  https://gitter.im/ACINQ/eclair
06:43 < macks> and yes, bitrefill looks interesting
06:45 < tumi> mlz: actually the channel is not in a normal state, I'm not sure why but there was a new block in the meantime. I'm just a weekend experimenter, perhaps there is another channel of eager users that isn't a development channel?
06:45 < tumi> channel is now*
06:46 < tumi> q     
06:47 < tumi> and since I'm here, there is a -a, --active_only flag to listchannels which appears to have no effect
06:48 < sovjet> mlz: do you need onchain(blockchain) transaction to open a channel in LN ?
07:02 < lndbot1> <joeblow> sovjet: yes, opening and closing channels need an onchain tx
07:02 < lndbot1> <joeblow> ups, this is read only channel
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07:06 < mlz> joeblow no it's a two way bridged channel, i can see your text
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07:08 < mlz> tumi, there's #lightning-dev for the community, i think
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08:13 < lxer> lets say I've made 10 transactions in a LN channel. then one of us decides to broadcast transaction #8 , what happens to the last 2 transactions?
08:14 < Shigufurido> its probably discussed in the paper
08:15 < Shigufurido> (didnt read that far yet)
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09:02 < lxer> Shigufurido: could you tell me where I can read about that?
09:02 < Shigufurido> https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
09:02 < lxer> duh... i mean a page
09:03 < Shigufurido> http://lightning.network/docs/
09:03 < Shigufurido> best is to read the paper first.. they probably got everything covered
09:03 < lxer> is that another way of saying RTFM?  thats not very nice. it wasnt a weird question
09:03 < Shigufurido> well that stuff is not trivial after all?
09:04 < lxer> if you dont know the answer, then pls dont try to answer.
09:04 < Shigufurido> why is everything trying to find problems in LN without having read the paper at all?
09:05 < lxer> who says I didnt?
09:11 < mlz> the paper is outdated
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09:13 < mlz> lxer, start here:  https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/00-introduction.md
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09:14 < mlz> lxer, and what do you mean you decide to broadcast tx #8?
09:18 < lxer> i mean broadcast an older tx  ,which closes the channel, right?
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09:24 < macks> Shigufurido: why are you answering questions without contributing anything to the answer? You're not the only one in this channel so if you have no clue just don't feel addressed
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09:27 < lxer> i think I found the answer: the punishment kicks in when the newer transaction (ealier timelock) appears , right?
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09:28 < zsoc> Is that BOLT doc the same thing I would use to understand how channels open and close, how transactions are translated from the lightning network to the block chain, and how ln 'wallets' work?
09:30 < aakselrod> lxer: mlz is correct, check out https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/00-introduction.md and https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/03-transactions.md and pay particular attention to revocation/punishment
09:30 < aakselrod> sorry, only on for a sec, gtg now :)
09:30 < lxer> thnx
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09:37 < mlz> haha, thanks aakselrod, i'm trying my best with what i know and LN is hefty, seriously, but it's awesomeeeeeeee!!!  :D
09:38 < mlz> zsoc, yes, afaik, BOLT is like the foundation ground work for LN
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10:37 < zsoc> Alright, so I read and read and I might just be slow about these particular abstracts.
10:37 < zsoc> I understand a channel is between two nodes. And I sort of get how the transactions are settled.
10:38 < zsoc> So what happens when you have an LN wallet and you want to send funds to X node? Are there other nodes that act as "open"?
10:38 < zsoc> and your wallet finds one that has an open channel to the node you want to send to? Because that doesn't sound right.
10:40 < zsoc> I think I said 'node' where I meant 'peer'
10:40 < zsoc> And what happens when one 'peer' wants to close a channel? They have to stop taking transactions and wait until both peers agree to close the channel and make the funding transaction(s)?
10:40 < zsoc> I should just read the whole spec I guess >.>
10:46 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vbRWy
10:46 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 720a8c7 Ben Congdon: htlcswitch: Only send UpdateFee message when channel is eligible...
10:46 < zsoc> Waaaaaait... does that wallets *are* peers? or only connect to them
10:46 <@roasbeef> tumi: we send the funding lovked immedaly atm, but eclair will wait until 6 confs, we have a PR open to fix it, but it hasn't been merged yet
10:47 <@roasbeef> macks: the funds you receive go onto the output controlled byt he commitment key
10:47 <@roasbeef> tumi: in that log, lnd did receive the funding locked
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12:58 < macks> roasbeef: thx for the answer. But am I right in my intuition that after I received funds (always in my hot wallet) I cannot send them to a node that is permanently offline (airgapped)?
13:00 < Shigufurido> youd have to close the channel first and make a traditional transaction
13:01 < macks> ok     
13:01 < macks> which costs $20 from time to time
13:02 < Shigufurido> well assuming LN takes of load the fees for traditional tx will fall too
13:03 < macks> sorry for my obvious frustration.. I'm not here to troll here, just wanted to get confirmed that I cannot include bitcoin the way I built my application. I'm sure guys like roasbeef and all the others are doing great very valuable work, just not happy how it is forced as only allowed solution
13:03 < sovjet> to open a channel on LN, does that mean transfer funds to LN wallet ?
13:03 < Shigufurido> so to say
13:05 < macks> Shigufurido: fees will not get lower. If LN really becomes a success yes more tx will be made additionally to the ones happening on chain right now
13:05 < mlz> currently, you send some fund to your lnd wallet first, then from there you open a channel, but i guess in the future you can send fund from any wallet to open a channel
13:05 < Shigufurido> mlz you need a open channel into the LN network. and that channels needs to allocated with some BTC
13:06 < mlz> that's what i said
13:06 <@roasbeef> macks: the commitment output itself can be air gapped
13:07 <@roasbeef> the commitment output is wehre the funds you receive are stored within the channel
13:07 < Shigufurido> roasbeef but how can a offline wallet sign anything?
13:07 <@roasbeef> there're more advnaced designs where you can actually have an entire code portino of the channel that can be rotated in/out
13:07 <@roasbeef> Shigufurido: it doesn't, this is where the funds are stored when setttled within the channel
13:08 <@roasbeef> it's possible to manually sign for new states as well, but you'd only want to do that in large batches as it obvs would take more time than automatically doing son
13:09 <@roasbeef> macks: nothing is being forced, there're several solutions, most of them being opt-in
13:09 < macks> bitcoins 1mb limit forces me to either use LN or not include btc in my app
13:10 < mlz> 1mb limit is all false and fud
13:10 < Shigufurido> even with LN 1mb will not suffice if more and more users come
13:11 < mlz> go look at the blocks, they can be more than 1mb now, so stop the fud
13:11 < sovjet> with segwit
13:11 < macks> ok, then the 1.7mb limit
13:11 < macks> whatever number you want to call it
13:11 < macks> doesn't change the result
13:14 <@roasbeef> macks: yeh blocks can be bigger than 1mb these days, thing is, most popular services haven't adopted it, so they're users can't access the additional capacity, those services then force their users to pay higher fees, the cycle repeats
13:15 < macks> ok     
13:16 <@roasbeef> the popular services have had over a year to start to allow their users to utlize the new capacity, but they've chosen not to do so
13:16 < macks> so "the commitment output itself can be air gapped": that means I can receive a LN payment and if its lets say >$10 send it to a LN output that is offline?
13:16 <@roasbeef> either they don't have engineers that actually understand bitcoin on a base level, or they just don't care
13:16 <@roasbeef> macks: more or less yes
13:16 <@roasbeef> the keys that need to be online are the multi-sig keys, which you use to update the state of the channel
13:17 < macks> ok, sounds good
13:17 < macks> but the multi-sig keys are not keys that can be used to cause any harm?
13:17 < macks> like steal the funds?
13:17 < macks> if so that wouldn't really be a cold wallet in my book
13:17 <@roasbeef> the two thigns I mentioend the other day cover the case of you getting hacked and the party trying to send the funds on-chain, they're restricted in that case. what they can try to do though is send the funds elsewhere via a paymetn on the network
13:18 <@roasbeef> a mitigation there would be a secondary service that needs to authenticate any outgoing transfers, rejecting if now authorized
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13:18 < marktwain> Hi guys
13:18 < macks> so something like what 3rd key solution offers today for onchain tx
13:18 <@roasbeef> the multi-sig keys can be used to sign new states in accordance with the protocol
13:18 < macks> hi     
13:18 < marktwain> what language program I need to work with Lightning?
13:18 <@roasbeef> macks: yeh i guess kinda
13:19 <@roasbeef> marktwain: if you wanna dev on lnd, there's a ton of langauges, we use gRPC which gives you a native stub in any langaugem, so it's liek interacting with a library
13:19 < marktwain> for example I'm learning python
13:19 <@roasbeef> macks: the wallet is password protected, and also we use a fine grained auth credential system to gate access to the RPC system
13:20 <@roasbeef> marktwain: check out http://api.lightning.community/ there're python examples in the sidebar
13:20 < marktwain> nice
13:20 <@roasbeef> marktwain: there's also this sample app: https://github.com/lightninglabs/lightning-coindesk
13:20 <@roasbeef> portions of it need to be updated as is though
13:21 < macks> yea but all these password protections are worthless as soon as your system is compromised and you have an automatec process doing something
13:21 < marktwain> I will check it
13:21 < marktwain> thanks
13:21 <@roasbeef> macks: if it's compromised and the relevant macaroons aren't on the system, they can't do any actions
13:22 < macks> ok, thanks for the answers.. I'll take a deeper look into it
13:22 <@roasbeef> macks: their course of action then would be to swap out with their own binary, but in that case the wallet database is password encrypted, so they'd need to attempt to brute force that (scrypt based key derivatoin)
13:23 <@roasbeef> macks: granted all this isn't as simple as just using bip32 public key derivation on a webserver, there're tradeoffs but I think the upside (instant payments) is pretty attractive
13:23 < macks> the thing is if one of my application accesses that database then the password must be stored somewhere
13:26 < macks> I'm not doing things manually here
13:26 < macks> the only thing I do manually is moving coins from cold storage back to the hot wallet
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13:34 <@roasbeef> macks: yes it must be known when the system is initially starting up, doesn't neccersily need to be stored on the same machine, or a related machine
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17:25 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 8 new commits to master: https://git.io/vbR1Z
17:25 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 2e2b262 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: autopilot: ensure access to pendingOpens in thread-safe when logging
17:25 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master b40c848 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: htlcswitch: add additional error logging during onion process failures
17:25 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 5b4aa82 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: lnwallet: don't sign new commitment if next revocation point is unknown...
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18:06 < ShanixCoin> Hi guys...
18:08 < ShanixCoin> I'm going through the installation steps on github right now.
18:09 < ShanixCoin> Installing Go on a Debian run right now...
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18:17 <@roasbeef> gdope
18:18 < ShanixCoin> cool roasbeef,
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18:20 < ShanixCoin> having issues with the path settings for go..
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18:22 < ShanixCoin> Just wondering.. "export GOPATH=~/gocode" shouldn't that be declare instead of export?
18:25 <@roasbeef> depends on your set up really, I have that in my zshrc so it's always set when I create a new shell
18:25 < Tootoot222> export lets subprograms of whatever program you run also have that in their environment
18:25 <@roasbeef> ^ also that :P
18:25 < Tootoot222> if you just do WHATEVER=blah firefox, firefox will get it, but anything it spawns won't
18:25 <@roasbeef> yeh gotta think about the children
18:26 < ShanixCoin> Actually maybe I am just held up getting go to actually work.
18:26 < ShanixCoin> I try to install Glide and it says "bash: go: command not found"
18:26 <@roasbeef> to go binary isn't in your PATH
18:26 <@roasbeef> the     
18:27 < Tootoot222> it probably installed to /opt or something
18:27 < Tootoot222> you can just make symlinks in /usr/local/bin if that's on your path
18:27 < ShanixCoin> echo $GOPATH results /root/gocode
18:28 < Tootoot222> are you running it as root?
18:28 < ShanixCoin> yeah
18:28 < ShanixCoin> duhh probably because I set it at ~/gocode....
18:28 < Tootoot222> you don't actually need GOPATH set though
18:28 < Tootoot222> i don't have it set and go runs
18:28 < ShanixCoin> let me go see where debian dropped it.
18:29 <@roasbeef> yeh after go 1.8 it auto sets
18:29 <@roasbeef> should prob modify the instructions
18:29 < Tootoot222> $ ls -lah `which go`
18:29 < Tootoot222> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Apr 23  2017 /usr/bin/go -> ../lib/go-1.8/bin/go
18:36 < ShanixCoin> looks like debian drops it in /usr/lib/go-1.8
18:38 < Tootoot222> thaht's basically what i just posted
18:42 < ShanixCoin> Thanks... ran# ln -s ../lib/go-1.8/bin/go /usr/bin/go
18:42 < ShanixCoin> looks to be working.
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