--- Day changed Thu May 17 2018 00:00 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:06 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 00:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 00:15 -!- colatkinson [~colatkins@cpe-66-67-61-98.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 00:43 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:45 -!- colatkinson [~colatkins@cpe-66-67-61-98.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: colatkinson] 00:45 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 01:03 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:10 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 01:14 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:16 -!- colatkinson [~colatkins@cpe-66-67-61-98.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 01:18 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 01:25 -!- yaslama [~yaslama@bzq-218-78-150.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lnd 01:41 -!- orange_ [~orange@host-62-245-143-26.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lnd 01:55 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lnd 02:31 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 02:42 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lnd 02:44 -!- colatkinson [~colatkins@cpe-66-67-61-98.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:10 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lnd 03:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC46948.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lnd 03:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC46948.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 03:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lnd 03:42 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55 -!- Blackadderrr [~blackadde@ptr-bwwzb6ljpe40y3r30r7.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:55 -!- Blackadderrr [~blackadde@94.242.246.20] has joined #lnd 04:14 < molz> oh i see.. 04:18 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lnd 04:24 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24 -!- Xethron [~quassel@unaffiliated/xethron] has joined #lnd 04:26 < Xethron> Where can I find stats on the average fee for a lightning transaction? 04:28 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 04:40 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- wampy [~wampy@gateway/tor-sasl/wampy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lnd 04:40 -!- wampy [~wampy@gateway/tor-sasl/wampy] has joined #lnd 04:41 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:41 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lnd 04:46 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 04:48 -!- maurris [~maurris@unaffiliated/maurris] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53 < molz> average fee is 1 sat 04:53 < molz> if your payment has only 1 hop, it's 0 sat 04:57 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lnd 05:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:10 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lnd 05:31 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:32 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 05:37 -!- jchia_2 [~jchia@116.192.25.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:40 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:41 -!- jchia_ [~jchia@58.32.35.186] has joined #lnd 05:42 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 05:43 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:44 -!- fitzsim [~user@69-165-165-189.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44 -!- fitzsim [~user@69-165-165-189.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lnd 05:59 < Xethron> molz: ok, so I had a look at this document on the size of the commitment transaction: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/03-transactions.md#appendix-a-expected-weights 06:00 < Xethron> It seems this comes down to: overall_weight = 500 + 172 * num-htlc-outputs + 224 weight 06:00 < molz> that's not a lightning tx, that's for onchain closing txs 06:00 < Xethron> Yes 06:01 < molz> fee for a closing tx is just like any fee for onchain txs 06:01 < Xethron> I'm just trying to figure out how long a channel needs to stay open for a node to break even when using something like autopilot 06:01 < molz> what do you mean? 06:03 < molz> you're on LN because you want to spend money and transfer money fast, you're not going to make any money by opening channels and doing nothing 06:03 < Xethron> True 06:03 < molz> or you're on ln because you want to sell something 06:05 < molz> so "how long a channel needs to stay open for a node to break even" does not make any sense because LN is not a PoS to steak coins like some altcoins 06:05 < Xethron> I'm trying to implement LN because I want to sell something. But, I'm trying to figure out how to control channels. As an example, accepting only one or two payments before closing a channel would be inefficient. 06:06 < molz> it's up to you, if you close channels after one payment while the customers want to stay longer, you might not have too many channels 06:07 < Xethron> Also, if one node automatically opens a connection with you, you'd want to keep that connection open untill the node who paid for the funding transaction was able to make back the fees paid for the funding transaction. Sure, I don't mind paying the fees for the closing of the channel, but you need nodes to open funding transactions with you in order to accept payments 06:08 < Xethron> I assume that if nodes realize that after opening a channel with you, you close it after say, 20 transactions, so they paid 500 satoshi's to the funding transaction, but was only able to make back 20 satoshi's. That node might not open up a connection with you again... 06:08 < Xethron> connection = channel 06:09 < Xethron> So I'm trying to find out when is the "right" time to close channels in order to get the funds back on chain 06:10 < Xethron> So curious to know how much funding transactions cost, and how many transactions a node needs to facilitate for it to pay off the fees paid to the funding transaction 06:11 < molz> im not sure why you're concerned about getting back the fees? 06:11 < molz> people who do txs onchain have paid a ton of money in fees and they don't seem to care 06:12 < molz> and matter of fact, lightning saves money in fees 06:15 < Xethron> Lets use an example 06:15 < Xethron> So, say you and I have a node. You decide to open a channel with me (Maybe you want to buy something from me). Instead of a normal 255 bytes, your commitment transaction uses around 1068 bytes (Worth 4 normal on chain transactions). 06:16 < Xethron> So you pay me for an item. You would have to make another 4 payments before you start paying "less" than you would've onchain, provided that I close the channel... 06:17 < Xethron> Someone else decides to make a payment, and uses up all the funds on your side of the channel. You can't make any more payments. 06:18 < molz> no, that someone can't use up my fund 06:18 < Xethron> They can hop from you 06:18 < molz> that's different than saying "he can use up my funds" 06:18 < Xethron> apologies 06:19 < Xethron> Yes 06:19 < Xethron> Point is, there is a certain number of payments that you need to make in a channel before it becomes worth it 06:19 < Xethron> If you now decide to close the channel, you will also pay for the closing transaction 06:20 < molz> sure, think of something simple like buying 50 cups of coffee 06:20 < Xethron> Yes 06:20 < molz> if i spend on chain i have to make 50 txs and pay 50 fees 06:20 < Xethron> So how many cups of coffee do you have to buy before it becomes "cheaper" than buying on chain? 06:20 < molz> but on LN i only have to make two onchain txs and pay 2 fees 06:20 < molz> this is so simple, think about it 06:20 < lndbot1> when you route a payment, one channel goes lower, but another channel goes higher. if you route a payment the other way (or you can manually rebalance yourself soon), the balances go back more equally 06:20 < lndbot1> I think about it kind of like a circular abacus https://www.ok787ok.com/funiuwanqiu/2012/040/06.jpg 06:21 < lndbot1> always the same number of beads, but different distributions (channel capacity is always the same, but the balance changes) 06:21 < lndbot1> if you tilt it one way, channels on one side go down but channels on the other side go up 06:22 < molz> Xethron, Veggen and I had a channel with each other with almost equal funds on both sides, we did this as a test, I don't know how many txs we routed but a lot i think, before it was closed yesterday after two months 06:22 < lndbot1> but now you can route payments going the other way (so then the beads will shift back to the other side) 06:22 < molz> Xethron, so we saved our fees and other people's fees 06:24 < Xethron> tyzbit: Totally! Sorry, I think I just used the incorrect termanology 06:24 < molz> Xethron, currently because of security most people don't open their channels with a lot of money but this will be changed once LN gets more secure, then people would open channels one time to make many many payments 06:24 < Xethron> But yes, I agree with you 06:25 < molz> and we will see eventually many txs will be offchain, saving a ton of money on fees 06:26 < Xethron> molz: yes, I completely agree! But the onchain txs are larger than normal transactions. It seems that the funxing tx is 4 times larger than the standard tx of 255 bytes. So if the other party closes the channel, you would have to make at least 5 transactions before closing it. 06:27 < Xethron> In other words, I should not close any channels that have been opened with me, unless at least 5 transactions have happened 06:27 < Xethron> Otherwise, the other party would not be happy 06:27 < Xethron> Correct? 06:27 < molz> have you even looked at those tx onchain? 06:27 < Xethron> Yes 06:27 < molz> with segwit they aren't that big like non segwit txs 06:29 < molz> my tx that was closed yesterday: VSize 06:29 < molz> 224 bytes 06:29 < Xethron> ah, ok 06:29 < Xethron> So thats about the same as one transaction 06:31 < molz> it has 3 outputs.. now because it has two htlc's so those htlcs have to go thru another tx and pay another fee.. but also very little size 06:37 < molz> we still have issues with spamming on the main chain attempting to spike fees again again.. but this is why LN will succeed 06:38 < molz> they spammed the mainchain and pushed BIP148 and UASF to a great success... lol 06:38 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:46 < kkt2[m]> lncli walletbalance shows the whole balance as unconfirmed, what can be the cause of this? 06:46 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lnd 06:48 < kkt2[m]> i got the btc the lncli wallet has from an on chain tx from btc faucet about a month ago, and opened some channels, etc. at that time, so it must have been confirmed at some point, why would it think its unconfirmed all of a sudden 06:54 < kkt2[m]> ill try updating my lnd & btcd first, i guess, looks like theres been a lot of commits 06:55 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lnd 06:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #lnd 07:09 < molz> yup 07:14 < kkt2[m]> do i still need roasbeef/btcd or can i use the main one? 07:29 < molz> we still use roasbeef/btcd 07:44 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44 < Xethron> molz: I realized my mistake, I compared weights to bytes *facepalm* So yeah, weights are 4 times larger, making the transactions almost equal in size 07:46 < Xethron> And yeah, the actual transaction size is even less. So opening and closing the transaction will require onchain fees of roughly 2 normal onchain transactions, except in the case of uncooperateve closing, which would be 3 transactions, correct? 07:47 < Xethron> opening and closing the channel* will require... 07:50 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lnd 07:56 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02 < molz> no 08:03 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07 < Xethron> ok 08:09 < molz> if your closing tx has htlc's, because of the timelock you have to go thru more than one tx to settle but not because of uncooperative closing 08:11 -!- fitzsim [~user@69-165-165-189.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:12 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-jzczhqyalfqmwtev] has joined #lnd 08:14 < molz> Xethron, here's an uncooperative closing tx on testnet: https://testnet.smartbit.com.au/tx/fa007dba889107840311756b4be00cd2a357de41b981b8f1f94f248cc9acc63f 08:14 < molz> the person had all his fund on his side, there's no htlc's, he's offline, i had to force-close his channel, he's going to get his money back after a day or so 08:15 < molz> and there's only one tx 08:23 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lnd 08:23 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@ool-44c11be6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:33 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-jzczhqyalfqmwtev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-uszenwhdoglsmvwo] has joined #lnd 08:41 < stevenroose> I like eltoo. It's quite crazy that things in research can move faster than development.. You can't keep rewriting everything, though :D 08:42 < lndbot1> thats why you make everything as modular as possible, including the crypto parts. That way, if a vulnerability is found in some algorithm, you can upgrade it without every security assumption suddenly changing. 08:45 -!- Pioklo_ [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Perlover opened pull request #1257: fix build target in Makefile (master...patch-1) https://git.io/vpNHG 08:57 -!- orange_ [~orange@host-62-245-143-26.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:05 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC464E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lnd 09:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC464E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 09:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lnd 09:24 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 09:29 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:32 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping 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[~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lnd 11:15 -!- lndguru [49eab03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.234.176.58] has joined #lnd 11:26 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 11:26 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@user-94-254-244-222.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:34 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 11:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40 -!- drexl_ [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lnd 11:41 -!- drexl [~drexl@37.58.58.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:41 -!- drexl_ is now known as drexl 11:42 < Veggen> molz: if you force-close, other side gets funds at once. 11:42 < Veggen> it's only you that have to wait for your balance. 11:44 < molz> Veggen, even if their node is down? 11:44 < Veggen> yah. 11:45 < Veggen> well, they might have to start the node to claim it, technically. 11:46 < Veggen> there's no timelock when other party force-closes. 11:46 < Veggen> and in fact, if you cheat they can take all immediately, even your part. 12:02 -!- treethou_ [~treethoug@cpe-108-185-249-110.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 12:11 -!- lndguru [49eab03a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.234.176.58] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:13 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29 -!- treethou_ [~treethoug@cpe-108-185-249-110.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:42 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04 -!- simlay1 [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lnd 13:15 -!- gethh [uid264798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phfhpvsfyqgjhjla] has joined #lnd 13:24 <@roasbeef> Xethron: why worry about closing them at all? 13:25 <@roasbeef> i don't think at this point, you need to minmax that aggresively on this pmoint 13:30 -!- hsmiths [uid95325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmchzjnotvxhmxrv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:37 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 13:38 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 13:40 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 13:41 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lnd 13:41 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 13:43 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:33 -!- treethou_ [~treethoug@cpe-108-185-249-110.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 14:47 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-uszenwhdoglsmvwo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:08 -!- Blackadderrr [~blackadde@94.242.246.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:11 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:12 -!- hsmiths [uid95325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebwzjzcqvcyuzgtl] has joined #lnd 15:13 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has joined #lnd 15:33 -!- treethou_ [~treethoug@cpe-108-185-249-110.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:46 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@77.70.119.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02 -!- treethou_ [~treethoug@cpe-108-185-249-110.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 16:03 <@roasbeef> kkt2[m]: entire thing can be unconfirmed if you only like had a single utxo, then made a channel with that or w/e 16:06 < kkt2[m]> i pulled the upstream catch-up and new lnd and it seems to work fine now 16:07 <@roasbeef> fsho 16:07 <@roasbeef> new release will be out in the next few days, packaging up quite a bit of bug fixes 16:12 -!- drexl [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13 < molz> roasbeef, what's "fsho"? 16:14 < kkt2[m]> 😅 16:17 < kkt2[m]> should i be copying lnrpc from the lnd i have instead of getting it with go get or something? to make sure that i have one that works with my lnd? or is there no difference 16:19 <@roasbeef> kkt2[m]: copying lnrpc? taht's just where the protos live 16:23 < kkt2[m]> yeah i mean, if i get it with go get, is there a chance i get a version of the proto spec that diverges from the one my lnd expects? 16:23 < kkt2[m]> but thinking about it now i guess i have the master branch of lnd anyway and presumably lnrpc that i get from go get is the master branch as well 16:27 < kkt2[m]> i guess it doesnt make sense because i didnt really mention my setup 16:27 < kkt2[m]> i have a remote machine running btcd and lnd 16:27 < kkt2[m]> and i have just lnrpc on my local machine 16:32 <@roasbeef> kkt2[m]: you should you dep 16:32 <@roasbeef> use* 16:32 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32 <@roasbeef> as it'll ensure it fetches the current version of all the dependancies 16:32 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-66-30-214-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lnd 16:34 < kkt2[m]> i see. ill look into it 16:38 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-66-30-214-9.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lnd 16:45 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47 -!- freannrak [~ar@m91-129-110-247.cust.tele2.ee] has joined #lnd 16:50 -!- Testing123356 [0e00b4c3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.0.180.195] has joined #lnd 16:52 -!- 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