--- Day changed Fri Oct 05 2018 00:04 -!- Pioklo_ [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has joined #lnd 00:40 -!- pseubodotji [~pseubodot@219.85.254.177] has joined #lnd 00:43 -!- pseubodotji [~pseubodot@219.85.254.177] has quit [K-Lined] 01:04 -!- bitconner [~conner@fs96f9c51b.tkyc003.ap.nuro.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:07 -!- bitconner [~conner@fs96f9c51b.tkyc003.ap.nuro.jp] has joined #lnd 01:19 -!- ken2812221_ [~ken281222@110.50.135.178] has joined #lnd 01:22 -!- ken2812221 [~ken281222@180.217.128.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01 < wkatsu> roasbeef: My point was: Although netstat -l shows IPv6 9735 port *only* and does *not* show IPv4 9735 port, I *can* connect there via IPv4 (as well as IPv6). 02:02 < wkatsu> And I found that IPv4-mapped-IPv6-address and IPV6_V6ONLY(/proc/sys/net/ipv6/bindv6only) setting is related. 02:07 -!- bitconner [~conner@fs96f9c51b.tkyc003.ap.nuro.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:08 < wkatsu> If IPV6_V6ONLY=0 (default for linux and many unixes) or use setsockopt(), you can connect to the IPv6 port by IPv4 connection(IPv4-mapped-IPv6-address). That is a very new finding for novice me, though it must be a common sense for most of you here. Thank you, especially molz and roasbeef. 02:30 < queip> roasbeef: but what is the minimal time on which my node will agree? how often I *must* check it to keep it running (e.g. enter the stupid password to unlock after reboot) to be certain no peer can steal from me? 02:30 -!- rhavar [uid237883@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sindagiyrqccbcym] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:39 < queip> that is at least a security issue. If I can not configure to never agree to tunnels with lose time fasterthen say 7*144, because I know in case of machine crashing I can only on weekends fix it 02:40 < queip> that is at least a security issue (if not a basically vulnerability, imo). If I can not configure to never agree to tunnels with lose time fasterthen say 7*144, because I know in case of machine crashing I can only on weekends fix it 02:40 < queip> I mean, someone will exploit that, and then will be like hurr durr you see LN is insecure, come use bcash 02:40 < queip> someone*cough*roger*cough* 02:58 -!- Pioklo_ [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58 -!- Pioklo_ [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has joined #lnd 03:02 -!- s7r [~s7r@openvpn/user/s7r] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04 -!- s7r [~s7r@openvpn/user/s7r] has joined #lnd 03:05 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:05 < Veggen> queip: watchtowers. Noone will ever know if you are using some. 03:07 < Veggen> it's there so that noone should never ever be able to predict that it's safe to cheat you even if they knew your node was physically in eastern india which has been without power for a full month because of the monsoon. 03:15 < queip> Veggen: still it should be protected in that way too 03:16 < queip> shouldn't it? So watchtower are only 2nd line of defence but primary one (any lnd node) can be secure too if you just truthfully configure how often at worst you can access/repair it's computer 03:16 < queip> and "well he is probably too secure by other means and we will probably just LOSE money in attack, is the 3rd line :)" 03:17 < queip> also, does lnd or c-lightning yet implement watchtowers? 03:32 < Veggen> watchtowers have been "pretty close" in LND for a while, now :) 03:33 < Veggen> I think having too long timepout is not too good, either. If you go away for months, you shouldn't be allowed to hold my ffunds in the channel with you for so long. 03:33 < Veggen> mrf. keyboard lag. 03:46 < queip> Veggen: both sides should configure min and max value, and then the intersection should be used 03:46 < queip> unless they have no common overlap, in that case they can not peer 03:47 < queip> *can not channel 03:49 < queip> best might be to give user a basic choice, like fast-close 1 to 1.5 days, default 1..7 days, weekends 9..15, slow-close 15..30 03:50 < queip> fast-close 1 to 1.5 days, default 1..9 days, weekends 9..15, slow-close 15..30 04:38 -!- cohntx [~cohn@220.122.162.138] has joined #lnd 04:39 -!- cohntx [~cohn@220.122.162.138] has quit [K-Lined] 04:47 -!- spaced0ut [~spaced0ut@unaffiliated/spaced0ut] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48 -!- spaced0ut [~spaced0ut@unaffiliated/spaced0ut] has joined #lnd 04:54 * molz is wondering what queip talked about 04:57 < molz> ah.. beginning with this.. queip: you set the time for the _remote_ party, they set it for you 05:20 -!- edward__ [~edward__@fd214-029.infoaomori.ne.jp] has joined #lnd 05:22 -!- dpyro [~dpyro@121.191.196.40] has joined #lnd 05:24 -!- edward__ [~edward__@fd214-029.infoaomori.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25 -!- dpyro [~dpyro@121.191.196.40] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 06:04 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lnd 06:06 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13 -!- reallll is now known as belcher_ 06:16 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 06:20 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@192.230.35.150] has joined #lnd 06:20 < queip> yeap untill we have watchtowers this is critical to defedn against fund stealing, imo should be fixed as soon as possible 06:20 < molz> so far nothing like that has happened 06:20 < molz> queip, are you a merchant? 06:21 < molz> if you're just a user and have never bought anything, have never spent your coin, you have no worry about your coin being stolen except your own security settings of your node 06:23 < queip> molz: yeap, this channel goes both ways 06:23 * queip like Thirteen :P 06:25 < molz> queip, has your node been down for a long time? 06:26 < queip> molz: if Im on vacation, the it might be week offline 06:27 < queip> I think this is fairly common case. everyone can gon on vacation (or have addicent), and all nodes need manual restart thanks to password input even if system would boot up 06:27 < queip> unless you hire people to help, but not everyone does 06:27 < molz> i've seen nodes offline for weeks 06:28 < queip> molz: maybe no exploit happened, but imo it's a disaster waiting to happen 06:28 < molz> if all the coins are on your side, aka "local_balance", you can go offline forever, nobody can steal it 06:28 < queip> we need to be very clear with users that they will get REKT if then do not configure this 06:28 < molz> queip, i don't think you understand 06:29 < queip> molz: yes I know of this exceptions. you need to have coins received, and attackers needs to be not affraid to risk his entire ballance, and you must have accident/etc to be offlined. 06:29 < queip> but if theses are all true, then it can happen 06:30 < molz> sure it can happen, but if you're so afraid, close all channels before you go on vacation for weeks then 06:30 < queip> (and yes attacker must be direct peer / channel counterparty) 06:30 < queip> molz: that's not a solution 06:31 < molz> that's a solution for now for worried warts 06:31 < molz> i guess my nodes have hardly ever gone offline so i don't have this problem 06:31 < queip> ok so there is a work around, for _expected_ downtime... but why not fix it 06:31 < molz> and you don't really have to be online *all the time* 06:31 < queip> just both sides need to quickly exchange their min-max range, and we pick the intersection 06:32 < molz> you can start your node and let it be on for couple hours once a day 06:32 < molz> that still protects you from "stealing" 06:32 < molz> it's a myth that "nodes have to be online all the time" 06:32 < queip> yeap I know, I ment offline in a row few days 06:36 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@192.230.35.150] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:47 -!- crisVc [~cris@201.145.145.31] has joined #lnd 06:47 -!- crisVc [~cris@201.145.145.31] has quit [K-Lined] 06:55 < molz> many people use phone wallets like Eclair mobile... their nodes are often offline.. if a merchant or someone wants to run an older state, they'll lose all and the eclair users get back their funds and more 07:30 -!- treyzania_ [~treyzania@paphos.tr3y.io] has left #lnd [] 07:31 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 07:31 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33 -!- treyzania [~treyzania@paphos.tr3y.io] has joined #lnd 07:33 < treyzania> #lightning-dev 07:33 < treyzania> oops 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[8ea94ea6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.142.169.78.166] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:38 -!- ken2812221 [~ken281222@110.50.135.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39 -!- ken2812221 [~ken281222@110.50.135.178] has joined #lnd 10:48 -!- JRWRmY [~JRWR@186-106-4-121.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #lnd 10:54 -!- JRWRmY [~JRWR@186-106-4-121.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34 -!- camarena [~camarena@142.169.78.166] has joined #lnd 11:37 -!- camarena [~camarena@142.169.78.166] has quit [Client Quit] 11:46 -!- bugfixerEP [~bugfixer@222.113.33.225] has joined #lnd 11:48 -!- bugfixerEP [~bugfixer@222.113.33.225] has quit [K-Lined] 11:55 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@x4e37c462.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 13:00 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077b7b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 13:00 < Veggen> queip: For someone to successfully steal, they'll have to guess that yoǘ'll be offline for N days into the future. 13:01 < Veggen> It's not that you *have* been offline for N days, it's that you're *going* to be offline. 13:01 < Veggen> timelock runs from they submit their force close tx, not from when you went offline. 13:34 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has joined #lnd 13:49 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077b7b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49 -!- varunest [~varunest@host-109-171-30-6.bbcustomer.zsttk.net] has joined #lnd 13:50 -!- varunest [~varunest@host-109-171-30-6.bbcustomer.zsttk.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a03:8600:1001:1043::1013] has joined #lnd 13:55 < molz> and it's not worth it to steal small amounts of satoshi, hackers would rather probe for bigger fish 13:57 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a03:8600:1001:1043::1013] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57 < lndbot> anyone had a real breach attempt so far? 13:58 < molz> yes Veggen did, ... on testnet... :D 13:58 < lndbot> Not an accident? 13:59 < molz> oh i meant he tried to create a breach 14:00 < molz> and he had a channel with my node, but it didn't do anything, something happened i can't remember, his node didn't see that channel anymore 14:00 < lndbot> Did it work? 14:00 < lndbot> Could easily breach my old nodes on testnet since I abandoned many 14:00 < molz> i closed his channel but his node couldn't know 14:00 < molz> yea try that, alex 14:01 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a03:8600:1001:1043::1012] has joined #lnd 14:06 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a03:8600:1001:1043::1012] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:18 -!- GloriousYellow_ [~GloriousY@softbank126074146015.bbtec.net] has joined #lnd 14:21 < Veggen> alexbosworth: I basically botched my channel.db on testnet, so I tried to just breach as much as possible with an old channel.db. 14:22 < Veggen> Didn't try *that* hard, though, wasn't worth that much effort :) 14:22 < molz> i've been thinking i should try this with my testnet nodes 14:23 < Veggen> alexbosworth: but there's always skyrus' original one, restoring an old channel.db. 14:23 < molz> and the lnd app too 14:23 -!- GloriousYellow_ [~GloriousY@softbank126074146015.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29 -!- jimmymow [~jimmymow@205.178.78.234] has joined #lnd 14:36 -!- wkatsu [~katsu@2409:13:1200:d200:dd4c:fd76:31e7:4bc0] has joined #lnd 14:39 -!- jimmymow [~jimmymow@205.178.78.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43 -!- jimmymow [~jimmymow@205.178.78.234] has joined #lnd 15:15 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:16 -!- Pioklo_ [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:26 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077b7b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 15:28 -!- jimmymo__ [~jimmymow@ip-70-5-248-160.prlchi.spcsdns.net] has joined #lnd 15:29 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29 -!- jimmymow 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