--- Day changed Wed Dec 19 2018
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00:04 < ekiro_> Also if the goal is to drive user engagement and adoption then you have to design a UI/UX that will give them the best possible experience and engineer the code to deliver it. 
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00:05 < ekiro_> Having to design a UI/UX with the given functionality today is impossible
00:06 < ekiro_> Think of it as reverse engineering design
00:06 < molz> ekiro_, please stop spamming this channel
00:11 <@roasbeef> molz: what's the error there? 
00:11 <@roasbeef> this is fromthe instructions in the readme? 
00:12 < molz> roasbeef, this error is from compiling
00:12 <@roasbeef> hmm     
00:12 < molz> on both windows and linux mint i got the same error
00:12 <@roasbeef> npm install should pull everything in 
00:14 < Veggen> ekiro: First swe need to make everything more reliable, then we (or you?) can automate more.
00:15 < Veggen> (that was my only input to the discussion, I believe. it's a moot discussion point at this stage. Akin to someone coming to Ford and say "noone will use this. ypu need to have automatic gears and cruise control!"
00:19 < ekiro_> I guess it's easier to just use core w/o ln and just wait for other people to develop it to the point where it actually becomes simply usable. I dunno why I even bothered. 
00:20 < ekiro_> But I do appreciate those working to make it happen
00:20 <@roasbeef> ekiro_: automated systems for mangaing channels do exist 
00:20 <@roasbeef> you took the most raw route possible, being manually running lnd and opening a channel yourselves 
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00:21 < molz> roasbeef, should i submit an issue on lightning labs?
00:21 <@roasbeef> yeh     
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01:06 < zac_> I have a noob question. I have LND and bitcoind running on my machine, and I have some money in my LND wallet ("lncli walletbalance" shows funds). But I have no idea how to open a channel to any one who is willing to respond to that request. All my openchannel commands resulted in pending channels that were never "ack'ed" from the other side. Do we need to get offline confirmation from some other party that they are willing to accept a ch
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02:20 < nflaig> I'm currently on the testnet how do I make my node announce a public IP?
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04:16 < Veggen> zac: an openchannel is an on-chain transaction.
04:16 < Veggen> so it needs to be confirmed for channel to become active.
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04:45 < nflaig> how can I test if my lightning node has a reachable public ip? for some reason my node does not show up on testnet explorer
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04:55 < Veggen> first, explorer is not authorative, really.
04:55 < Veggen> it's just some random nodes view of the world. It can also take some time until it learns about it.
04:56 < Veggen> you also need open channels etc.
04:59 < nflaig> yeah probably have to wait a bit also my ipv4 address is not static do i need to change my lightning config all time my ip changes or is there a better way?
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04:59 < Veggen> https://www.yougetsignal.com/tools/open-ports/
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04:59 < Veggen> how often does it change?
05:00 < Veggen> there are nat and upnp support, but I haven't testet it myself., My dynamic ip address is static enough that I dn't bother.
05:02 < Veggen> also various tricks you can use so that you only need to restart when the ip changes (but for that, you'd need to periodically run some scripts )
05:03 < nflaig> upnp is not supported by my router and i think my IP changes once a week
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05:04 < Veggen> can you open a port through it and make it work no matter what your ip address is?
05:05 < Veggen> if so, you can run a script where you use an external URL which reports the ip address it sees to find what your ip address is.
05:06 < nflaig> i just checked my ports on and it says that my ports are closed...I configured something on my router i guess that didn't work my 18333 for btc testnet is closed aswell apparently
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05:09 < Veggen> well, you need to fix that.
05:09 < Veggen> that's obviously router specific stuff.
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05:13 < nflaig> actually it gets to my lnd node and I get the following:  Can't accept connection: unable to accept connection from 198.199.98.246:59755: EOF
05:15 < nflaig> thanks for the help i think it works now for the dynamic ip thing i need to figure something out i guess
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05:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] joostjager opened pull request #2347: utxonursery: mock sweeper in tests (master...sweeper-mock) https://git.io/fpjLm
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05:37 < Veggen> no problem.
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05:41 < Veggen> https://medium.com/@stadicus/perfect-low-cost-%EF%B8%8Flightning%EF%B8%8F-node-4c2f42a4ff7b in point 8 has some ideas.
05:41 < Veggen> (for discovering the external ip address)
05:41 < Veggen> I use that strategy, but my ip address doesn't change that often.
05:43 < booyah_> questoin from #bitcoin - how to make sure you do not lose any BTC if node crashes and burns (the server).
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05:44 < booyah_> how to make proper backups?  do such backups restore "forward" also, that is any things received AFTER backup was made?
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05:44 < booyah_> how to do a backup "each minut", can it be done on live server eg with rpc?
05:45 < booyah_> berndj: ^
05:46 < booyah_> if I know I need 3 days to restart server, how to make sure my channels will have 3*144 grace period or more?
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05:47 < Veggen> static channel backups is in a PR now. hey'll rely on "data protection", and will enable you to get those channels force-closed based upon the info your channel partner have - if he has dlp (data link protection?) support.
05:49 < Veggen> those are static, and need to be taken only each time you open new channels or such.
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05:49 < booyah_> Veggen: who stores for me the cryptographic proof of last state, how much money I had?
05:49 < booyah_> maybe this should tie into watchtowers?
05:50 < Veggen> data-loss-protect, it's called.
05:50 < booyah_> them being my online watchtowers but also online backups
05:50 < ekiro> how come my walletbalance is always differennt everytime i check? 
05:50 < ekiro> 1hr ago it was: 
05:50 < ekiro>     "total_balance": "688385",
05:50 < ekiro>     "confirmed_balance": "215461",
05:50 < ekiro>     "unconfirmed_balance": "472924"
05:50 < booyah_> Veggen: but this is related problem, that during when your server burns, also a peer could try to publish older state
05:50 < ekiro> now it is: 
05:50 < ekiro>     "total_balance": "439734",
05:50 < ekiro>     "confirmed_balance": "320871",
05:50 < ekiro>     "unconfirmed_balance": "118863"
05:50 < Veggen> ekiro: you are opening channels.
05:51 < ekiro> i did not. does it do this automatically? 
05:51 < Veggen> ekiro: if you enable autopilot, it does.
05:51 < ekiro> ah     
05:52 < Veggen> booyahg: yah, so watchtowers will probably also be part of solution.
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06:16 < berndj> ah, thanks for the highlight. didn't see it till now
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07:10 < ekiro> is it possible to move coins out of ln and back into your regular wallet? 
07:10 < ekiro> core wallet
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07:23 < nflaig> veggen you linked me the script to get my external ip and that seems to work fine now i can print my ip with cat /run/publicip but how can i use it in the lnd.conf file and set it?
07:31 < molz> ekiro, yes
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08:46 < djyoungcity> anyone wanna help me out with some TLS issues ?
08:46 < djyoungcity> all SubConns are in TransientFailure, latest connection error: connection error: desc = \"transport: authentication handshake failed: x509: certificate is valid for 127.0.0.1, ::1, fe80::707b:c71f:45c:9082, 169.254.144.130, fe80::7d34:3dda:d899:f01a, 192.168.1.149, fe80::9da0:a37e:fc6e:ffae, 192.168.56.1, fe80::5efe:c0a8:195, fe80::100:7f:fffe, fe80::5efe:c0a8:3801, 65.190.27.181, not 0.0.0.0\
08:47 < djyoungcity> getting that with all REST calls.  I have tried using the tlsextraip config in the config file, and it doesnt seem to help
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09:05 < ekiro> when do pending channels become active channels?
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09:05 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> when they’re confirmed and the other side is around
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09:09 < ekiro> where can i find the tx address of the payment sent to the channel
09:09 < ekiro> so i can monitor its confirms
09:09 < ekiro> i cleared the screen when it was displayed
09:10 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> you can look in pending channels
09:10 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> or in listchannels
09:10 < ekiro> i dont see any txn ids
09:10 < ekiro> is it channel_point ?
09:11 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> yes it’s the first value
09:12 < ekiro> I see
09:12 < ekiro> How many confirms does it need?
09:12 < ekiro> 128?
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09:15 < molz> no, only 3, you're probably on some funky docker or crappy rpi?
09:15 < molz> restart your lnd
09:15 < ekiro> yes rpi
09:16 < ekiro> got 2 confirms
09:16 < ekiro> so it should go active soon
09:19 < ekiro> So whenever I deal with a new merchant I will always have to open a channel with them first?  Then I have to wait for it to confirm. It basically makes me wait like 30min before I can complete the checkout. 
09:20 < Veggen> nflaig: I use it in a startup script and put it on the command line.
09:21 < Veggen> A=`cat /car/run/publicip`; lnd --externalip=A
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09:23 < Veggen> lnd --externalip=$A that should be.
09:23 < ekiro> and what would that do
09:23 < Talkless>  /car/run :)
09:23 < Veggen> Talkless: uh :) well.
09:24 < Talkless> echo "100" | /car/fuel_tank :))
09:25 < Talkless> ekiro: you don't have to open channel with every merchant. You can open channels to some noes you select, or enable autopilot and do it's job. Once channels are alive, lnd will route payments via them to the merchants.
09:25 < Talkless> noes=nodes
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09:26 < ekiro> i have autopiolet enabled 
09:27 < ekiro> and it looks like i have 4 peers
09:27 < ekiro> but when i tried to pay blockstream's invoice i get an error... unable to route
09:27 < ekiro> so now i am opening up a channel with them
09:27 < ekiro> does this mean autopilot failed?
09:30 < Veggen> ekiro: how many active channels do you have, and what size?
09:30 < Veggen> ...and autopilot isn't that good at picking optimal places to open channels :)
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09:31 < ekiro> Veggen 0 active, 4 in pending_open_channels
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09:32 < Veggen> then you can't use them yet :)
09:32 < ekiro> but they have been pending for like 12hrs
09:32 < Veggen> with lncli pendingchannels you can get the funding txid that you can look up in any block explorer.
09:34 < ekiro> 3/4 have been pending for like 4 hours and have 0 confirms
09:34 < ekiro> 1/4 has been pending for about 40 min for 2 confirms
09:34 < ekiro> which is the one i opened with blockstream
09:34 < ekiro> 3 of them were created by autopilot i assume
09:34 < ekiro> but they seem hung
09:34 < Veggen> ok, after 3 confirms you should be able to use it.
09:35 < ekiro> right but what about the other pending ones
09:35 < ekiro> which i assume autopilot created
09:35 < ekiro> why are they stuck
09:35 < Veggen> fees have been rising since then.
09:35 < Veggen> on-chain fees.
09:35 < ekiro> ah     
09:35 < ekiro> so they are stuck in mempool
09:35 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> I wouldn’t us autopilot on mainnet
09:36 < Veggen> ekiro: yup, they'll have to wait for fees to come down again :)
09:36 < ekiro> hmmm
09:37 < ekiro> definietly looks like something that could be improved
09:37 < Veggen> alexbosworh: any plans for RBF on funding tx'es?
09:37 < ekiro> also when i open a channel with someone, is it advised to put more in than i will spend? i hear the bigger the channels the more capacity for the network. this correct?
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09:38 < ekiro> say i will only spend .1btc with a merchant. but i put 1btc in the channel. 
09:38 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> There’s plans for describing RBF flows for funding tx in BOLT 1.1
09:39 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> You can currently use the change to do a CPFP if you set minconfirms=0
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09:39 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> You should try to put enough capacity in a channel so that it will not have to be closed
09:40 < Veggen> yup, idea is to use channels for more than 1 tx, of course.
09:40 < ekiro> indeed
09:40 < ekiro> also auto recurring payments is possible with LND now right?
09:41 < ekiro> im guessing this is one reason why channels are useful
09:41 < Veggen> ekiro: not in the protocol itself.
09:41 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> You have to implement that part yourself there’s no standard protocol for negotiating repeat payments
09:42 < ekiro> i see
09:42 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> We don’t even have push payments yet
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09:44 < ekiro> fucking finally
09:44 < ekiro> paid my first invoice with lightning
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09:44 < ekiro> i gotta say that was pretty cool, but frustrating to get to 
09:44 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> grats
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09:44 < ekiro> i hit enter in terminal and the browser instantly said success (blockstream store)
09:44 < ekiro> was super fast
09:45 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> nothing worth having comes easy
09:46 < djyoungcity> why am I getting a "Not Found" json response when i try to hit this endpoint using REST ?
09:46 < djyoungcity> https://127.0.0.1:8282/v1/getinfo
09:46 < djyoungcity> i cant get any real response on REST
09:46 < tuxx> has anyone looked into locking down lnd inside a seccomp container, by restricting the available systemcalls
09:47 < djyoungcity> sometimes I get TLS handshake failures, and cannot for the life of me solve them
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09:50 < ekiro> when did mainnet go live?
09:52 < ekiro> looks like april
09:53 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> there was a small network a year ago
09:53 < djyoungcity> "live" is a moving target
09:53 < djyoungcity> as alex said, there were people on mainnet last december
09:53 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@184.75.220.66] has quit [Client Quit]     
09:54 < djyoungcity> here were some stats from March
09:54 < djyoungcity> General Data: Date: 20180322203347575 Block Hash: 0000000000000000004825cf93a5a43f45002b2b02c49b599ad642849df56237 Block: 514740 Nodes: 1013 Channels: 1932 Total Capacity: 5.08831735 BTC Average Channels Per Node: 1.90720632 Channels Average Capacity Per Channel: 0.00263370 BTC Average Capacity Per Node: 0.00502301 BTC
09:55 < ekiro> how come it has progressed so little in all of 2018
09:59 < djyoungcity> the capacity has grown quite a bit, and is growing everyday, fast growth is not recommended on software that is still considered beta
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10:09 < Talkless> [19:44] <ekiro> paid my first invoice with lightning
10:09 < Talkless> congrats! :)
10:09 < Talkless> go buy some pixels, and steam games :)
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10:36 < nflaig> veggen your startup script works fine for me the only thing im missing now is that my lnd restarts if my ip changes but im fine with how it is now
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10:39 < tuxx> does anyone have lnd running natively right now? :D
10:39 < tuxx> i'd be interested in this:
10:39 < tuxx> strace -c -Ff -S name bash ls 2>&1 1>/dev/null | tail -n +3 | head -n -2 | awk '{print $(NF)}'
10:39 < tuxx> oops...
10:39 < tuxx> strace -c -Ff -S name lnd 2>&1 1>/dev/null | tail -n +3 | head -n -2 | awk '{print $(NF)}'
10:41 < Talkless> tuxx: I do
10:42 < tuxx> Talkless: i think that command requires lnd to terminate before dumping the statistics... you'd have to kill it from another shell
10:42 < tuxx> but that will dump every systemcall that lnd requires during regular operation
10:42 < Talkless> what do you want to get from it?
10:42 < Talkless> you can use ssydig without restarting
10:42 < tuxx> Talkless: a list of required systemcalls
10:42 < Talkless> and you can attach sytrace with -p to process too
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10:43 < Talkless> tuxx: wanna setup seccomp or what?
10:43 < tuxx> but i need to see all systemcalls including those when starting the process
10:43 < tuxx> Talkless: exactly. for docker
10:43 < tuxx> trying to build a profile to lock it down
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10:43 < tuxx> i guess i can run it in docker run --privileged and do it myself
10:43 < Talkless> I'm using AppArmor 
10:43 < tuxx> you can use both.. that was my plan too
10:44 < tuxx> but i dont really know much abt apparmor to be honest
10:44 < Talkless> well, yeah, seccomp would increase sec. a lot
10:44 < tuxx> yea i wld put it on github as a hardening lnd guide
10:45 < Talkless> tuxx: I'm a bit reluctant to restart lnd, it's a heawyheight operatin for my puny arm node :))
10:45 < tuxx> no worries
10:45 < Talkless> and it's on arm bth, so syscalls might differ no?
10:45 < tuxx> i can run privilegd
10:46 < tuxx> Talkless: hmm i think the syscalls should be pretty much the same
10:46 < tuxx> i mean syscalls are an abstraction of hw
10:46 < tuxx> but no worries, i can run my docker in --privileged
10:46 < tuxx> https://dpaste.de/K98V
10:47 < tuxx> you can pipe that strace command into this python program to generate a profile
10:47 < Talkless> yeah, some arch might be _missing_ syscalls, but right, they should be the same
10:47 < tuxx> Talkless: agreed.
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10:49 < ekiro> Can you make money running a lightning node?
10:49 < ekiro> Say I were to store 1btc on it
10:50 < buZz> ekiro: some ppl say so
10:51 < ekiro> how does it work
10:51 < ekiro> I figure if i risk 1btc and store it on there and run the node every day 365 days a year
10:51 -!- github-lnd [github-lnd@gateway/service/github.com/x-iiachhciwmijvcmt] has joined #lnd     
10:51 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] halseth opened pull request #2349: autopilot/manager: only set m.pilot if started successfully (master...autopilot-pilot-error-reset) https://git.io/fpjXz
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10:51 < ekiro> maybe it will generate some extra bucks
10:52 < ekiro> to cover the cost of keeping it powered and then some
10:56 < molz> ekiro, please don't
10:56 < ekiro> why not
10:57 < molz> so i don't want to see you come back with more nasty complaints how bad ln is
10:57 < ekiro> lol     
10:57 < molz> currently there's no money to be made on ln unless you're a super well liked merchant
10:57 < ekiro> obviously once i'd do it once i master it
10:58 < tuxx> Talkless: sudo docker run --rm --security-opt seccomp=lnd.json lnd ./start-lnd.sh 
10:58 < tuxx> now it just hangs here :D
10:58 < tuxx> super weird :)
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11:09 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] halseth opened pull request #2350: [Autopilot] Add heuristic dry-run option (master...autopilot-dryrun-only) https://git.io/fpjMX
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11:17 < nflaig> im on the testnet and get the following error: [ERR] CMGR: Can't accept connection: unable to accept connection from 23.251.130.188:54882: EOF  anyone knows what it happening for some reason i also dont see my node on the explorer even tho my externalip is set and the port is reachable
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11:29 < tuxx> docker seccomp is weird
11:30 < molz> nflaig, probably that node is offline
11:30 < molz> nflaig, and explorers aren't authoritative
11:33 < nflaig> but it is a incoming connection i think
11:33 < nflaig> if i use https://www.yougetsignal.com/tools/open-ports/ and test it on my ip and port 9735 i get the same error
11:36 < nflaig> how can i test for myself if my node is reachable?
11:36 < molz> nflaig, is port 9735 opened?
11:37 < nflaig> the port is open on my router thats why if i test it i get: Can't accept connection: unable to accept connection from 198.199.98.246:56575: EOF
11:37 < nflaig> so something reaches my node for sure
11:38 < nflaig> but i also get this error even if i dont ping my own ip and port
11:39 < Talkless> nflaig: tell me your IP in private chat, I'll try open connection from my lnd
11:41 < Talkless> nflaig: maybe somehting's wrong with network config, maybe default gateway is not proerly set, so your OS does not send ack back or smthg, and connection timeouts.
11:43 < Talkless> nflaig: if your'e on Linux, try "traceroute 198.199.98.246"
11:44 < nflaig> i didnt get any errors running it
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11:45 < Talkless> lets' say that node is just defuct, I guess you can ignore that error.
11:45 < Talkless> defunct*
11:47 < Talkless> nflaig: if you get that error from "open-ports" web helper, is it's just some sort of short-lived conenction, a scan. So maybe you see other port scans too, as they are not "real", "final" lnd connections
11:47 < Talkless> nflaig: I'll scan your prot, just a sec
11:48 < Talkless> nflaig: nmap says host is up, do you see same/similar error?
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12:41 < tuxx> nice... i have a somewhat working seccomp profile for lnd :)
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12:53 < molz> tuxx, did you manage to get the lightning-app compiled?
12:54 < tuxx> molz: bro its very easy to compile.. the trick is to use node:10 like it says in the .travis.yml
12:55 < tuxx> literally 4 lines of Dockerfile :)
12:55 < tuxx> (w/o building lnd and neutrino and stuff :)
12:55 < tuxx> molz: are you familiar with seccomp?
12:55 < molz> no bro
12:55 < molz> :D     
12:56 < molz> no i don't know what seccomp is
12:56 < tuxx> molz: ah well.. docker basically uses linux capabilities to containerize processes
12:56 < tuxx> and the linux kernel introduced something called seccomp which allows whitelisting/blacklisting of system calls
12:57 < tuxx> so you can basically only allow syscalls which lnd uses, so that if someone manages to get code execution, the attacker cant call arbitrary syscalls, e.g. to break out of the container
12:57 < tuxx> having a locked down seccomp would introduce alot of security
12:57 < molz> i see
12:58 < tuxx> you basically run lnd with strace once, and make a list of used syscalls and them generate a profile out of it, everything else -> forbidden
12:58 < tuxx> pretty sweet
12:58 < tuxx> could further be used with apparmor as talkless suggested
12:59 < tuxx> roasbeef: you there?
12:59 < tuxx> molz: are you german btw?
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13:14 < molz> nope :)
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13:24 < tuxx> molz: ah because you pasted a .de pastebin url :)
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13:26 < molz> tuxx, lol i thought that was why you asked, when i used paste.ee someone asked me if i was from estonia :)
13:26 < tuxx> you're from everywhere
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13:34 < molz> lol 
13:34 < molz> ok so i guess i need to update my nodejs then i won't have any errors compiling this app?
13:34 < tuxx> https://pastebin.com/Y5eu6KL7
13:35 < tuxx> thats a seccomp profile for lnd.. i'll lockdown a bit further by matching with the default.json
13:35 < tuxx> but this works at least already
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14:23 < ekiro> hey     
14:24 < ekiro> i notice a channel i just opened (satoshis.place) is in the "pending_force_closing_channels" section, even though the it has 5+ confirms
14:24 < ekiro> I didn't close it
14:24 < ekiro> Any ideas?
14:24 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> satoshis place closed it?
14:25 < ekiro> I wonder why
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14:25 < ekiro> The reason I did it was to see if a transaction goes faster if a channel is open
14:25 < ekiro> Because right now when i pay satoshis.place it takes like 1-2 seconds (there are some hops)
14:26 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> they force close a lot
14:26 < ekiro> But my transaction with blockstream, channel open, no hops I think, took a split second
14:26 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> I’ve tried 12 times to open a channel with satoshis place and they’ve forced closed on me every time
14:26 < ekiro> I was amazed how fast it went through. I hit enter and in half a second the browser displayed a confimation message
14:27 < ekiro> but is it true that txns are faster with an open channel?
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14:28 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] sangaman opened pull request #2352: lnrpc: set JS_STRING option for chan_id (master...jstype-string) https://git.io/fpjhf
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14:43 < molz> i think satoshis.place is still running c-lightning 
14:43 < molz> it's not a stabe node though, i closed my channel to that node a long time ago
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14:51 < tuxx> c-lightning scares me
14:56 <@roasbeef> booyah_: yep can tie into towers, can pay them to keep that small blob for you, before then can store it on like cloud storage or w/e 
14:56 <@roasbeef> ekiro: it can change since we need to update the fees on commitment transactions 
14:57 <@roasbeef> ekiro: gz on your first payment! 
14:57 < ekiro> do your best to make it run even fater
14:57 < ekiro> faster
14:57 < ekiro> i was super impressed how quick it went through
15:12 < molz>         "num_pending_channels": 7,
15:12 < molz>         "num_active_channels": 112,
15:12 < molz>         "num_inactive_channels": 13,
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15:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 4 new commits to master: https://git.io/fhefU
15:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 6ca52c4 Joost Jager: lnrpc/walletrpc: remove unused gen_proto.sh script
15:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 9e61163 Joost Jager: lnrpc: update github.com/golang/protobuf to v1.2.0...
15:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 78aaf86 Joost Jager: lnrpc: remove reference to GOPATH...
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15:35 < midnightmagic> is c-lightning rusty's?
15:35 < tuxx> roasbeef: https://github.com/tuxx42/lnd-with-seccomp/tree/master
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15:36 < tuxx> roasbeef: i made a docker-compose environment with seccomp which locks down lnd's syscalls
15:37 < tuxx> granted the list is pretty long :)
15:37 < molz> midnightmagic, yes 
15:38 < tuxx> and maybe it'll still crash here and there.. but so far it looks like its running :p
15:38 < midnightmagic> molz: Is it not stable these days? I see activity even as of 8 days ago in the repo.
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15:39 < molz> midnightmagic, i'm not sure, i'm not running it on mainnet currently
15:40 < molz> midnightmagic, but satoshis.place node is on a rpi, when i had my channel to it, it was down so often, i hope Koala will do something about it
15:40 < midnightmagic> tuxx: why does running c-lightning scare you?
15:40 < tuxx> midnightmagic: because its C :)
15:40 < midnightmagic> :-C     
15:41 < ekiro> ?     
15:41 < ekiro> what does lncli run on
15:41 < ekiro> go? 
15:41 < midnightmagic> yeesh. lol.
15:41 < molz> midnightmagic, c-lightning doesn't have data loss protection atm, might be incompatible with other impls
15:41 < ekiro> isnt C superior
15:41 < molz> no     
15:41 < midnightmagic> ekiro: It is.
15:41 < midnightmagic> molz: What do you mean data-loss protection
15:41 < tuxx> definitely not superior.. its not memory safe
15:41 < ekiro> i'd assume if performance mattered C is king
15:42 < tuxx> ekiro: true.
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15:42 < tuxx> ekiro: i think the reasoning was that c-lightning cld run on embedded devices
15:42 < ekiro> bitcoin was coded in C for a reason
15:42 < midnightmagic> Only the C fearful tread safely.
15:42 < ekiro> lol imagine bitcoin in php
15:42 < molz> midnightmagic, somethng like this: https://medium.com/@ACINQ/adding-data-loss-protection-to-eclair-598c62494096
15:42 < tuxx> virtually on all security conferences these days the credo is.. stop using C
15:42 < midnightmagic> ekiro: c++, with c++ types and such.  I wish it were written in C. If it were written in C I could have much more significantly contributed to it.
15:43 < ekiro> yup     
15:43 < midnightmagic> tuxx: dogma is fashionable, indeed.
15:43 < ekiro> all i have are some very rusty php skills
15:43 < ekiro> C is way too hardcore for me
15:43 < ekiro> Go seems new and trendy. Google engineering. 
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15:44 < tuxx> midnightmagic: its not about dogma.. its simply so much easier to introduce bugs with C than it is with memory safe languages
15:44 < ekiro> In the end of the day its just anotjer lang. Use the one that will give the app ultimate success 
15:44 < midnightmagic> After I debugged a harsh memory-pressure segfault in the Go runtime I stopped trusting that Go was memory-safe. :(
15:44 < tuxx> midnightmagic: mozilla is rewriting large parts of firefox to rust for a reason
15:45 < ekiro> they did well when their competitor was MSFT
15:45 < ekiro> now they compete against google/apple
15:45 < ekiro> hard competition
15:45 < ekiro> where there is big money best talent tend to flock
15:46 < midnightmagic> tuxx: Meanwhile in reality: https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/1074453848385822720
15:46 < molz> midnightmagic, you could contribute to c-lightning? 
15:46 < tuxx> midnightmagic: you really have to be delusional if you think rust is more secure than C
15:46 < midnightmagic> molz: I doubt it. I know very little about lightning, I'm embarassed to admit.
15:47 < ekiro> i know one thing for sure all the alts have inbred devs 
15:47 < midnightmagic> tuxx: wat
15:48 < tuxx> midnightmagic: have you developed in rust? thats when you really start to learn all the mistakes that people do in C unknowingly
15:48 < tuxx> midnightmagic: look at the filed CVEs from fuzzing 9/10 projects ar eC
15:48 < tuxx> are C
15:49 < tuxx> quite literally...
15:49 < midnightmagic> tuxx: .. I'm just going to back away, because I think you're making some odd assumptions about things you don't really know about and I suspect this chat will simply go nowhere.
15:49 < midnightmagic> (e.g. what I do/know.)
15:51 < midnightmagic> no offence intended.
15:51 < tuxx> midnightmagic: i'm a pentester.. i work in IT sec. I think i know what im talking about
15:51 < tuxx> but whatever
15:51 < tuxx> its hard to smash a stack/heap if your target is likely memory safe
15:52  * midnightmagic shrugs.
15:53 < molz> well midnightmagic all ln impls need help and i'm sure c-lightning needs a lot of help :)
15:54 < molz> midnightmagic, they disabled DLP:  https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/pull/2155 
15:55 < midnightmagic> doh     
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16:23 < tuxx> midnightmagic: lol look what i just stumbled over
16:23 < tuxx> https://twitter.com/peterktodd/status/968190530294337538
16:24 < tuxx> "Writing it in C - a notoriously dangerous language - doesn't strike me as a good idea"
16:24 < tuxx> my words precisely.. from the very person you quoted
16:25 < tuxx> but its dogma i guess from people who dont know whaat they are talking about
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16:28 < molz> tuxx, peter todd criticized LND for using btcd as the backend too, it's easy to criticize, it's hard to lend a helping hand
16:29 < tuxx> molz: seriously.. trust me on this one.. C IS DANGEROUS
16:29 < tuxx> type confusion/memory safety/use after free are BY far the most common vulnerabilities in binaries
16:29 < molz> very easy to sit in a restaurant with your bros, drinking prune juice, and twittering away on a laptop
16:29 < tuxx> all of which are mitigated in languages like rust
16:30 < tuxx> molz: thats not the point .. its absolutely factual
16:30 < tuxx> its not bar talk
16:30 < tuxx> C is dangerous
16:30 < molz> tuxx, i believe you, but you won't stop ppl from using c
16:30 < tuxx> molz: its really shifting...
16:30 < tuxx> molz: the mentality i mean.. people are slowly moving away
16:31 < tuxx> i've had this discussion with roasbeef a while ago.. he agrees with me.. if thats an appeal to authority
16:31 < tuxx> ...for you
16:32 < tuxx> very few new security critical projects these days are started in C
16:32 < tuxx> thankfully
16:36 <@roasbeef> yeh a networked daemon in C in 2018 is scary, don't think they've done any sort of fuzz testing on their wire messge parser yet 
16:38 < molz> roasbeef, does go have memory issue at all though?
16:39 < tuxx> roasbeef: i fuzzed it a while ago... actually i was thinking of generating a corpus using lnd and throwing that at c-lightning..
16:39 < tuxx> like lcamtuf did with image parsers and threw them at internet explorer
16:39 <@roasbeef> it's memory safe, you can do unsafe stuff in special blocks though, lnd at the base level doesn't do any raw pointer management 
16:39 <@roasbeef> tuxx: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/tree/master/docs/go-fuzz
16:39 <@roasbeef> tuxx: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/1895
16:39 < tuxx> roasbeef: i've seen that.. i played with it before.. i also did a wee bit of fuzzing on c-lightning
16:39 < tuxx> but barely
16:40 < tuxx> #1895 sounds like a great xmas project
16:40 < tuxx> ...i get so bored when visiting my mom :D
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16:47 -github-neutrino:#lnd- [neutrino] wpaulino opened pull request #118: multi: remove ChainService dependency from Rescan (master...rescan-remove-chainservice) https://git.io/fheIK
17:04 <@roasbeef> and the neutrino refactorings begin... 
17:04 <@roasbeef> it is known 
17:04 <@roasbeef> kek     
17:04 < lndbot> <joaoalmeida> :P
17:05 <@roasbeef> 0.6 will be bringing some srs heat 
17:06 < lndbot> <joaoalmeida> I know. I’m really excited for that
17:06 < lndbot> <joaoalmeida> light client will be huge
17:06 < tuxx> srs?
17:06 < tuxx> requirements specification?
17:07 < tuxx> roasbeef: did you see my docker seccomp repo for lnd?
17:08 <@roasbeef> tuxx: srs -> serious 
17:08 < tuxx> i think i'll throw in some app-armor and write something up abt it on medium.. 
17:09 <@roasbeef> not super famiilar w/ seccomp, locks down access to sys calls to only what the process is know to typically use? 
17:09 <@roasbeef> nice
17:09 < tuxx> roasbeef: yea exactly
17:10 < tuxx> roasbeef: i straced lnd and dumped the syscalls -> allow them block everything else
17:10 < tuxx> you can also put constraints on the syscall arguments 
17:11 < tuxx> roasbeef: docker relies heavily on seccomp to lock down capabilities like ptrace and stuff
17:12 <@roasbeef> nice
17:12 <@roasbeef> there's been some recent activity to fix up some quirks in our current docker set up
17:12 <@roasbeef> should be able to ge thru reviewing them later this week 
17:13 < tuxx> roasbeef: i know.. i submitted some PRs 
17:14 <@roasbeef> ah fsho 
17:14 < tuxx> roasbeef: you dont use docker? docker is freakishly awesome.. i cant believe i only discovered how cool it is like early 2018
17:14 < ekiro> Is it true when you have lots of channels your bandwidth usage (upstream mainly) goes up significantly? Ever since I opened a few channels my upstrem has been pushing lots of data and my home connection kind of slow
17:14 <@roasbeef> i used to more in the past, but i've fallen out of use a bit, with the updates to our set up may throw it into my dev workflow again 
17:15 <@roasbeef> i made stuff like https://github.com/Roasbeef/btcdmon using it in the past 
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17:15 <@roasbeef> ekiro: you can disable channel update stuff, you don't need em if you're just routing 
17:15 < midnightmagic> tuxx: Why are you still bothering me.
17:15 <@roasbeef> and when you route, if you have stale info, you'll get it in the error messge 
17:16 < tuxx> roasbeef: sweet with grafana visualization :D yea docker-compose is great for stuff like that
17:16 <@roasbeef> ekiro: how many chans do you have? a metter of the number of peers really, there're some inefficiencies in the way peers speak w/ each otehr rn, some low hanging fruit to fix there that're in the work for 1.1 
17:16 <@roasbeef> tuxx: yeh we'll have a similar set up, but using prometheus for lnd some time early next year 
17:17 < ekiro> 6/6 chsns
17:17 < tuxx> yea we use prometheus as well where i work..
17:17 <@roasbeef> ooooOOO NICE 
17:17 <@roasbeef> lol accidental caps lock 
17:17 < tuxx> easily excitable..
17:17 <@roasbeef> kek     
17:18 < ekiro> you think i should turn off autopilot? my upstream is getting heavy use
17:18 <@roasbeef> check out your logs 
17:19 <@roasbeef> do lncli debuglevel --level=PEER=debug
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17:19 <@roasbeef> what messages do you see afterwards? or just restart lnd w/ --nochanupdates
17:20 < ekiro> nothing
17:20 < ekiro> its frozen
17:20 < ekiro> not updating
17:20 < ekiro> Dec 19 19:20:24 raspibolt lnd[814]: 2018-12-19 19:20:24.277 [INF] ATPL: Node updates received, assessing need for more channels
17:21 < ekiro> ill try --nochanupdates
17:21 < ekiro>     "sub_systems": ""
17:21 < ekiro> Dec 19 19:21:46 raspibolt lnd[814]: 2018-12-19 19:21:46.055 [DBG] PEER: Received ChannelUpdate(chain_hash=000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f, short_chan_id=604128862997250048, flag=2, update_time=2018-12-19 19:21:05 -0600 CST) from 83.40.151.142:9735
17:22 < ekiro> definietly seeing lots of channelupdates
17:23 < ekiro> i must of uploaded 2gb today
17:25 < tuxx> roasbeef: ah too bad your btcdmon proj requires a custom btcd service for exporting the data 
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17:28 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 9 new commits to master: https://git.io/fhetA
17:28 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 516a487 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: docs: update contribution guidelines to add section on commit structure
17:28 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 0dc9b35 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: docs: add section in testing pointing towards Makefile docs
17:28 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master d1571ba Olaoluwa Osuntokun: docs: add section in contribution guidelines for unique lnd code style
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17:29 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef closed pull request #2347: utxonursery: mock sweeper in tests (master...sweeper-mock) https://git.io/fpjLm
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17:31 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fheqJ
17:31 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master dbf7b38 Johan T. Halseth: autopilot/manager: only set m.pilot if started successfully...
17:31 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 52f1a25 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: Merge pull request #2349 from halseth/autopilot-pilot-error-reset...
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17:34 <@roasbeef> tuxx: yeh it isn't really maintained atm 
17:35 <@roasbeef> ekiro: yeh would try that flag, restart w/ that upload of 2bg sounds very high, check your logs to see if you have a peer reconnecting in a tight loop 
17:36 <@roasbeef> ekiro: are you running a full node too? 
17:36 < ekiro> yes     
17:36 <@roasbeef> if you're doing IBD for peers, then the bandwidth usage can be high aalso relay traffic, for you node there's a --blocksonly mode that'll only do blocks 
17:36 <@roasbeef> woudl need to double check if it'll still send out transactions or not 
17:40 <@roasbeef> iirc, if using bicoind, tehre're params to limit the total upload the daemon will consume as well 
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17:47 < molz> roasbeef, if you run bitcoind with --blocksonly, your txs won't broadcast
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17:56 < midnightmagic> roasbeef: I think you can get around that with --whitelistrelay ..?
17:56 < midnightmagic> er. molz  ?
17:56 < midnightmagic> er..  no, nvm that.
17:56 < molz> midnightmagic, ? it happened to me
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18:20 < midnightmagic> molz: In my node here, running version v0.17.0, with -blocksonly, running sendrawtransaction causes the tx to be sent over the wire. I think tx rebroadcasts are disabled though, as are the rest of them..
18:25 < molz> midnightmagic, oh i haven't tested -blocksonly with txs on v0.17.0, are your txs broadcast?
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18:29 < midnightmagic> molz: with sendrawtransaction, they showed up on another node, yes.
18:33 < molz> hm ok
18:33 < molz> but because your node doesn't have mempool you can't see the tx? 
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18:34 < molz> in the past when this happened i think i was on v0.12 or 13
18:42 < midnightmagic> molz: No, it's there in listtransactions with 0-conf.
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19:03 < ekiro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZwjdGSqO0k this song sums up this journey 
19:05 < molz> wondering who won the black swan
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19:45 < ekiro> hey in theory how man tx/s can ln handle?
19:45 < ekiro> assuming it grows substantially in the next 10yrs]
19:45 < ekiro> 100k/s ?
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20:08 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> You can’t really describe the tps of the network that way, like how many webpages per second can be accessed on the internet? 
20:08 < ekiro> i see
20:08 < ekiro> well
20:09 < ekiro> can it outperform visa/master
20:09 < ekiro> thats the big question
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20:58 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> those are custodial trust based systems
20:59 < ekiro> hm     
21:00 < ekiro> well as long as it can scale for every human being to engae with it
21:00 < ekiro> then it should do fine
21:00 < ekiro> engage*
21:00 < ekiro> also wont there be some centralization happening due to channels
21:00 < ekiro> seems like major hubs will form
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21:51 < Veggen> ekiro: there will be nodes with more channels than others, but as you can route around them, and if some of these hubs start to act up, they'll be routed around.
21:51 < ekiro> hope so
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21:53 < Veggen> it's always useful to remind oneselves on why we have bitcoin, then you won't worry all that much about outcompeting others by tx volume.
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22:29 < ekiro> indeed
22:30 < ekiro> i dunno if you guys saw this but its amazing. lnd will be the next addition to the visual :D 
22:30 < ekiro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjYbsq3FXfM&fbclid=IwAR2a1vC3WUkHuesP87G6CmrhMpLrpMkF2904Wa3Dkeu_jSwCMQEWNVp-bMM
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