--- Day changed Tue Jan 01 2019 00:29 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:37 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:40 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 00:47 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:46 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #lnd 02:17 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 02:23 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:54 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 03:05 -!- pioklo [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has joined #lnd 03:30 < Veggen> but please note: a node being offline can be scheduled maintenance, power outage, and other temporary issues. 03:30 < Veggen> i.e. they can become active again. 03:43 < stephen> I notice a beta Windows x64 release. Any chance this works with bitcoin core? 03:53 < molz> Veggen, but the question is: how do you know? if a node has been offline for days and weeks, how do you know it's just a temporary issue? Plus it's so cheap to create onchain txs, if those nodes become active again they can open their channels again. People have their right to close inactive, useless channels 04:01 < molz> stephen, bitcoin core and btcd are used as backends for LND, explained in the guide: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/INSTALL.md#available-backend-operating-modes 04:07 < stephen> Thanks molz 04:07 < Veggen> molz: you dont know, of course. 04:08 < stephen> Are the docs written connecting to testnet as a matter of precaution? 04:08 < molz> Veggen, right, so if we have the right to close even active channels, i'm not sure why you get bothered when someone closes inactive channels? :P 04:17 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 04:25 < molz> stephen, yes, if you're not familiar with Lightning, testnet is the best place to learn 04:30 < Veggen> molz: well, I don't care, other than I want them to know the tech good enough to make their best decisions. 04:30 < Veggen> I have heard people not thinking inactive channels can become actice again. 04:33 < Veggen> I guess the deciding issue should be if you have BTC in that channel that are better off used elsewhere. 05:03 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has joined #lnd 06:01 -!- dermoth_ [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 06:04 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:20 -!- close [5fd0fa5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.208.250.92] has joined #lnd 06:20 < close> Hi, I tried "lncli closeallchannels" and I get errors on all 5 open and inactive channels: "error": "unable to close channel: rpc error: code = Unknown desc = unable to find arbitrator" 06:20 < close> What does that mean? 06:37 < Talkless> close: idk, maybe remote peer is offline, so you have to close channel unilaterally. 06:41 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a01:c23:bc22:cc00:2d99:d850:29d2:3f70] has joined #lnd 06:41 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@2a01:c23:bc22:cc00:2d99:d850:29d2:3f70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41 < close> I tried with -force but same error 06:41 < close> would that be abandonchannel? 06:46 < Talkless> close: idk, let's wat for someone more knowledgeable 06:46 < Talkless> wait 06:50 < molz> close, what does it say if you do "lncli getinfo"? does it say how many active/inactive channels you have? 06:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:59 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lnd 07:04 < close> "num_inactive_channels": 5 07:04 < close> Theyre all inactive that I have 07:04 < close> I wanted to close all and manually open some again, I had it running on autoopilot 07:04 < close> But i wanted tot ake control 07:05 < close> But now I am stranded here with 5 inactive channels and cant close them for the errors reason 07:05 < Veggen> ok. Is your node synced? 07:05 < Veggen> what does it say if you try to close one of them manually? 07:05 < close> Oh shit, no its not, no clue why 07:05 < close> wtf 07:05 < close> btc blockchain is synced 07:06 < close> And I just noticed I have high average cppu usage. I had my node disconnected for a couple of days 07:07 < close> Where can I see again what lnd is doing at the moment? tailing some log I think it was 07:07 < Veggen> close: ~/.lnd/logs/bitcoin/mainnet/lnd.log 07:07 < Veggen> set lncli debuglevel --level=LNWL=debug first 07:09 < close> when I tail the lnd service I see: 07:09 < close> Failed to process consensus server notification (name: `blockconnected`, detail: `failed to store sync information 0000000000000000001a33c822177e1ff2b2b655a1de36c74b128f5f5769fa03: failed to fetch block hash for height 556539: block not found` 07:09 < close> I did sudo journalctl -f -u lnd 07:10 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 07:14 < close> Veggen: The Log doesnt exist for me even after setting the debug level and restarting the service 07:15 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:15 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lnd 07:16 < Veggen> that log will almost always exist. Under the user that runs lnd. 07:17 < Veggen> advice: do some research into how the OS you use work, how lnd is running under it, etc. 07:18 < close> Yeah I got it now 07:18 < close> apparently it's still fitlering blocks 07:18 < close> [DBG] LNWL: Filtering block 521621 (0000000000000000003ba65789ccac44a1c5b6575abe64d17f1b3b40cc7b396f) with 1731 transactions 07:18 < close> So I guess that's gonna take a while 07:19 < Veggen> yup. 07:19 < Veggen> did you just upgrade? 07:19 < close> Okay. I am still a beginner at this stuff and I like to fiddle with it. But man, operating a node has to get WAY easier :P But for me, I like to tinker and get on you guys nerves anyways :P 07:19 < close> Yeah I upgraded yesterday but forgot to unlock the wallet 07:20 < close> But I was only one release behind 07:20 < Veggen> ok. there is a migration in now that forces it to rescan the blocks. 07:20 < close> betweed the last release and the one prior? 07:20 < close> I mean current and prior 07:20 < close> sry 07:20 < Veggen> hmm. Which release were you on prior? 07:21 < close> Ah nevermind. For some reason I thought the latest release was aminor one and I didnt read the changelog 07:21 < close> dumb. 07:21 < close> Usually I read them before upgrading. This time I was in a hurry :P 07:23 < close> God that will take forever on my Pi 07:23 < Veggen> https://github.com/Stadicus/guides/blob/master/raspibolt/raspibolt_70_troubleshooting.md is good read if you are running with Stadicus guide setup. 07:24 < close> Yeah Im using stadicus' guide, its awesome 07:24 < close> cool that troubleshooting section must be recently added, didnt notice it 07:25 < molz> oh he finally added it? :D 07:25 < molz> so my complaint and nagging didn't go in vain 07:26 < molz> close, many lnd people like don't run a pi or use that guide, so many of us even the devs would have no clue to debug it 07:26 < molz> like me* 07:27 < close> that guide was a godsend for me 07:27 < close> no way I run a full node and lnd client on a regular computer 07:27 < molz> and a headache for us for a long time :P 07:27 < close> that pi can run forever and consume little energy 07:28 < molz> but it would be useless if it fries your money or keeps going offline 07:28 < close> why would it do either? 07:28 < close> I had a like forever uptime on that thing :P 07:28 < Veggen> it's pretty good setup, but it makes it look a bit different than default, so even LND experts my have a difficult time guiding you to the specifics of a setup with Stadicus guide. 07:28 < close> I see yeah 07:28 < molz> close that's good to hear, keep taking care of it then but i've seen people lose money with those pis 07:29 < close> But don't you think that running lnd on a pi is a good thing and maybe even become some sort of majority platform? Be that a pi or any other kind of small mini pc 07:29 < molz> no it's not 07:29 < Veggen> mols - to be honest, I guess quite a few of them are utter beginners in Linux and it has more with lack of OS skills than hardware. 07:29 < close> To be brutally honest I just dabble with small amounts and that only for a couple months now but I am still not sure what exactly has to happen for me to lose money? 07:29 < Veggen> but I agree that pi isn't the most powerful device. 07:29 < molz> you can go ask core devs they'll tell you rpis aren't good for bitcoin network and i don't think they're good for LN 07:31 < close> If you have a choice between paying for hosting, or having your own powerful computer running 24/7 or having something like a Pi I think the majority prefers the Pi-like stuff. I mean its also in the spirit of decentralization and acecssibility when you dont need powerful hardware. I would even make a point and say that optimization for these small devices should have a higher priority 07:31 < molz> not sure if the node for satoshis.place is ok now but when i had a channel to it, it kept going offline so i had to close my channel and SP node runs on a rpi 07:32 < close> Can you point me somewhere where is explained what actions of ME would lead to me losing funds? apart from bugs of course 07:32 < molz> close, i really hope rpis can do a good job, maybe it they have different brands and designs and one brand is better than the others? 07:32 < molz> s/it/if 07:33 < close> The Rpi is the RPi, there's only different versions in terms of hardware, the RPi 1, 2 and 3, but thats about it. Im sure some companies make some others and adjustments but I ever only used that barebones chip 07:34 < Veggen> molz: newer rpis are more powerful. 07:35 < yope> I wouldn't recommend lnd on anything less than RPi 3. Synchronization is just too slow else. 07:35 < close> Yeah I'm running a 3 07:36 < close> I dont know which exact version of it, but a 3 ^^ 07:36 < molz> yes we have someone here :cough: who would report how slow lnd on his rpi every day.. like it was lnd's fault :P 07:37 < Veggen> it also, of course, depends on your SD card, and you *really* should only boot from the SD card and try have all logs and valuable and frequently updated data on secondary hard disk. 07:37 < yope> I have a RPi 3 with a 1TB toshiba external USB HD... works very well for such a small thing. SD card is a class 10 only for booting. 07:37 < close> But if you project a couple of years down the line I'm sure that of course hardware improves, but more importantly, optimization will improve vastly. I mean optimizing stuff isnt necassarily a priority in this early stage of such a bleeding-edge technology 07:38 < close> Veggen: True, have it all on external HDD 07:39 < yope> I suppose it is more or less the same as what's inside the CASA node... 07:39 < close> I just googled CASA node, and WTF? 300 BUCKS!? 07:40 < yope> Yep. I built mine including a small touchscreen for Eur 120.- 07:40 < yope> Parts cost. The CASA does not even have a screen... 07:41 < yope> It is not for total noobs to set up, but with something as raspiblitz it is not rocket science either... 07:42 < yope> CASA node is probably a lot more polished and end-user flriendly 07:42 < molz> i think the extra charge is for endless crazy tech support 07:43 < molz> hours of tech support i can imagine 07:43 < yope> lol. Right now, selling lightning to end users is probably pretty tough on tech support ;) 07:43 < molz> they would have to sell a whole lot more to make money 07:44 < Veggen> to be honest, even bitcoin core setup would probably generate a bit of support requests. any server-software at all, really. 07:44 < Veggen> depends on the end-users, I guess, but there's a lot that have little eperience but their own desktop. 07:45 < yope> I think the CASA node will be an interesting experiment in this regard... I wish them luck, but as you say, it depends on the kind of customers they get. 07:47 < molz> there's another company that makes similar hardware, Bitseed or something, that's still around? 07:49 < yope> Oh, I see... interesting. Apparently they don't seem to support lightning out of the box... yet? 07:51 < yope> Looks a bit like a re-packaged Intel NUC celeron or Atom SFF PC with pre-installed software. Most probably Linux. 07:52 < close> My greatest fear is that all those ready-to-go boxed will rip people off massively through some backdoor in a couple of years 07:52 < close> stealing their keys 07:52 < yope> Ah, lol. Found the specs. Indeed, a Celeron NUC board with ubuntu. 07:53 < yope> Yes, that is also my concern. You are putting a lot of trust on these companies... 07:54 < yope> Maybe LND needs a certified secure-boot enables OS image of sorts... something people can reliably control authenticity of? 07:55 < close> That's actually a nice idead 07:56 < close> Its so difficult to balance security with usability tho. Jesus. That's why I personally since last year invest heavily in knowledge of IT security infrastructure and the like. I want to at least know the stuff a little what is to come in the next years/decades. If crypto will grow, IT security will be a major new focus of business I think 07:58 < close> What we also need is a user friendly way, fast and secure to verify signatures. ^^ 07:59 < close> But that is out of scope in this channel right now anyways :P 08:01 < yope> Maybe the cryptocurrency era will be the final push towards mass adoption of public/private key cryptography foor end users. I am thinking about what GPG always pretended to become... 08:01 < yope> It needs to get really easy to use, without sacrificing security. 08:02 < close> True. I am still baffled by how difficult it is to use. I am currently getting my family into encrypted email messages. and jesus. gpg4win, kleopatra, gmail addins, outlook addons, and DUDE. No normal human being can use that shit. I am shocked to be honest. 08:02 < yope> Sad but true. 08:03 < Veggen> encryption is generally a usability hell. 08:03 < Veggen> also things like SSL and TLS is never userfriendly, ever. 08:04 < yope> Think about this: Governments are obviously interested in doing anything possible to avoid this... or have their own backdoors (NSA algos) installed first. 08:04 < yope> So there is a considerable force against public awareness at least. 08:06 < close> True. But man, when the first people realize they can cheat on taxes with crypto if they read up a little technical stuff, THAT is when greed takes over and people will get more knowledgable. Not that I condone this behaviour but greed is extremely powerful 08:06 < yope> As for software, Linux secure boot may be the way to go. On ARM we have SoC-specific secure boot mechanisms, and bootloaders as barebox and u-boot are supporting them. 08:07 < close> Let's hope for the best. But sheep is sheep -.- 08:09 < Veggen> I live in a country where public spending actually achieve something. Decent education, decent healthcare, an economical network for all, really. 08:09 < close> Also let's hope we find a good way to govern, too when money is not such a hard system of control anymore 08:09 < yope> I agree that greed is powerful, but I don't think that crypto is a specially useful tool to evade taxes. Maybe now there a technical deficiencies on behalf of governments, but unless you are using true privacy coins.... 08:09 < close> That is so true 08:09 < close> You cant imagine a government workign without taxes. Yet I think we have to find a way in the future 08:09 < Veggen> even though I egoistically could like to pay less taxes, I have come to value living in such a country. 08:10 < Veggen> I am pessimistic that charities taking care of it would be enough. Actually most evicence shows it's not ;P 08:10 < yope> Taxes will always exist, and there people should value the fact they do. Having said that, I guess the "system" will evolve together with the economy around us... 08:11 < close> Yep. In the best case it leads to government spending taxes in a more efficient and transparent way 08:11 < Veggen> close: Now, I am of the type that try to pay my share to ideal organizations that try to do good in the world, but I have little confidence in that being able to replace public spending towards same goals. 08:11 < yope> In the long run, using bitcoin won't give you much of an advantage for tax cheating. 08:11 < close> We never had a situation where people could evade taxes that easily. The question is, how egocentric are we as a society. When everyone can decide. Interesting. That's what its gonna be I think,. 08:12 < close> Amazing time to live in :P 08:12 < yope> True. 08:13 < close> Maybe there is an actual moral responsibility of core devs on balancing the delicate privacy issue. But then again someone will do it. Since Satoshis invention, innovation is sprawling and people will try everything. 08:13 < Veggen> yope: well. Since I value being able to use money too, not only stash it away, I find it often best to declare my money. Makes things a bit easier with that. Should crypto by me a lambo, I want to be able to explain how I could afford it :) 08:14 < Veggen> now, I do realize that if everyones money had privacy, things would be much different. 08:15 < close> I don't rule out complete anarchy in a decade. Really. I hope for the best and it may seem unlikely. But a fact is: The chance of total anarchy existing persistently jumped considerably higher since satoshis invention. 08:15 < Veggen> I guess we'd have to move to a flat tax or something if we still need taxes and haven't found a better way. 08:16 < yope> I totally agree, veggen. Sadly still a lot of people don't think that way, but I don't think it will matter much for crypto in the long run. When automobiles where invented, there were barely any roads nor traffic law to drive on, and people said the horseless car was doomed to fail. ;) 08:16 < close> Yeah, imagine "government as a service" Stuff like internet access, music, video etc. They all went from paying for the product to paying for access. Imagine that you may only use government institutions and services if you can prove you paid some kind of taxes. Would be totally technologically doable and fair 08:16 < close> You pay for access to gov services 08:17 < Veggen> close: well, if everyone had equal opportunity to gain money to pay for this access. 08:18 < yope> Yes... but that would not fit well with most political views if there wasn't a difference according to income at least... 08:18 < yope> And that's the point: How to prove lack of income. 08:18 < close> Veggen: Good point. How do you determine the amount everyone has to pay when everyone can basically fake that statement? 08:19 < yope> Ok, next revolutionary fintech development: Proof of lack of income. 08:19 < yope> ;) 08:20 < close> haha 08:20 < close> or: PooP: Proof-of-overt-poverty 08:21 < yope> lol. 08:21 < Veggen> I guess I am a socialist-light. I believe we as a society have a responsibility to make people around us access to food, health care and a place to sleep. 08:21 < Veggen> ...and equal opportunity for things like education, not depending on the economy of ones parents too much. 08:21 < close> Veggen: That is honorable, I feel the same, yet I am sceptical of what people do when they just can play the system easily and covertly without being accountable to anyone anymore. That brings out the worst in people 08:21 < yope> That's not really socialist... it is more like the ultimate goal of a state of well-being. 08:22 < close> See internet slang. People being racist, sexist, insulting, yet I bet most of them are nice people IRL 08:23 < close> As soon as people are anonymous or even only pseudonomous, it brings out the nasty 08:23 < yope> Never really understood that urge for an internet alter-ego... 08:23 < Veggen> close: mm, it does. 08:24 < Veggen> there's been a few interesting cases of reporters/journalists or others actually tracking down and interviewing those people, IRL. 08:24 < close> THe most interesting aspect of all this for me is the fact that we have absolutely no clue what will happen. There has never been something like that in a time like now. or any time for that matter. Alll you can do is gather knowledge and watch it unfold 08:25 < close> Veggen: Do you have some links? 08:27 < close> On another note: I am wondering: I dont know if one or some of you here are devs at btc or lnd but I couldn't imagine being a programmer in this space and not develop an interest for economics and finance. 08:27 < Veggen> https://www.vg.no/spesial/2015/nettkrigerne 08:27 < Veggen> but in norwegian. 08:27 < close> lol. I lightheartedly clicked on that link 08:27 < close> and found myself thinking "wtf, is that some kind of lmgtfy in norwegian?" xD 08:28 < yope> The internet of social media is still young, and it already got its (first?) big tech revolution on top of it to deal with... blockchain. Will be turbulent and exciting times. I am thrilled to be part of behind-the-scenes developments... if only for a tiny bit :) 08:28 < close> I would LOVE to contribute to btc or lnd, yet I can barely script some stuff, let alone program. 08:29 < yope> close: I am not a contributor either (yet?), but I am sure there are enough ways to contribute, and learning to program is always an option ;) 08:30 < close> Learningto program on that level is not something you learn in a year. 08:30 < Veggen> close: there's a thing that's desperately needed, always: good documentations. People that make the stuff are notoriously bad at documenting it good enough for other people. 08:30 < close> I got stregths in design, layouting, and a little user experience 08:31 < close> Veggen: How can I document stuff I dont understand? 08:31 < yope> I am really thinking that the next step for lnd to get more mainstream adoption from more "regular" users, is by means of a complete verified software installation. There are already signed source tarballs, but this needs to extend to complete OS images. 08:31 < close> I can layout documentation in a readable and accessible way tho :P 08:31 < Veggen> close: by documenting what you learn. 08:31 < Veggen> for example the experiences you get after talking here/other places, the things that made you finally understand something. 08:32 < yope> Exactly. Learning and documenting the process is invaluable for others to follow your footsteps. 08:32 < Veggen> those need to be documented, because there's probably a ton of other people with the same questions. 08:32 < close> Veggen: I don't understand. Do you mean stuff like blogging about it? Documentation in my mind is explaining how the software works and how to use it 08:32 < close> Oh, so like a FAQ 08:32 < Veggen> close: yah, but more beginner-friendly, perhaps. 08:33 < Veggen> close: it's extremely difficult to document something for someone on a different level of understanding than yourself. 08:33 < yope> When you are a developer, for some you may seem an allmighty god, but there is a fundamental weakness to have very deep knowledge about something: It is very hard to explain it in a way to make it accessible to others who know nothing about the subject. 08:33 < yope> "Learners" in that case are the best teachers. 08:34 < Veggen> yup. And we definitely need them. 08:35 < Veggen> I should do more of it myself, I'm not really that much of an expert, but I do try to get more into the coding aspects too :) 08:35 < close> What I noticed is really essentially what everyone knows and wht is a general problem with FOSS: The user experience SUCKS. Why do you thinkg coinbase is so successful with their outrageous fees? AND THAT IS ONLY THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THE HOOPS TO BUY CRYPTO 08:35 < Veggen> close: yup. So UX people are needed. 08:35 < yope> Exactly. 08:36 < Veggen> the developers in FOSS often are more motivated by creating more exciting tech, so FOSS need people to pick up where they leave it and make it more userfriendly. If nothing else, give good feedback on what needs to be better. 08:37 < yope> Btw, I am a Linux (kernel) developer and user since 1994. I know the pains and criticism of FOSS very well... but like I said, the more technically knowledgeable you are, usually the more inept you are at making things accessible to people that know very little or nothing about the subject. 08:38 < close> Giving feedback is one thing. There has to actually 1) Be an easy to use way for end users to provide feedback. Im not talking an email adress. I'm talking an in-application form like some MMO games like WoW do. THAT is good to get actual user feedback from actual USERS. 08:38 < close> and 2) 08:38 < close> Someone has to tace care of it and coordinate efforts. Someone whos sole repsonsibility is to channel feedback 08:39 < yope> Well, close... there you have it: Plenty of opportunities to contribute and help out ;) 08:40 < close> You are absolutely right. I am a fuckin lazy dimwit. I dont know why. I really care bout it. But I have no idea on how to approach it 08:40 < Veggen> close: I guess UX requests for LND should end up as issues in the github. 08:41 < yope> I can understand that. I am also not involved in the project, but sometimes, just showing a will to help out and reach out to core developers can be a start. 08:41 < Veggen> begin with creating a github account and create an issue for something UX you'd like changed, here: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues 08:42 < Veggen> that's contribution, too! 08:42 < yope> Indeed. 08:42 < Veggen> I'm not an UX guy. I grew up on command line :) 08:43 < yope> Well, awesome to talk to you two... gotta go now. AFK. 08:43 < close> I actually have a git account and contributed to stadicus guide :) 08:43 < Veggen> good! 08:43 < close> yope: Pleasure, see you! 08:43 < yope> Thanks! 08:46 < close> Veggen: I need to leave now, too. But youmay have inspired me a little bit. I actually got some ideas that I will post to the lnd issues page! Thank you! 08:46 < Veggen> you're welcome. I need to go, too :) 08:46 < close> Happy new year and a wonderful evening! See you! 08:46 < Veggen> happy new year, yes! 08:59 < molz> Veggen, commandline has UX too.. like how we do 'lncli gitinfo' and it lists items nicely, comparing to another impl that used to have it not as nice as what lnd has 09:05 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 09:10 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:16 -!- aielima [~aielima@gateway/tor-sasl/aielima] has joined #lnd 09:16 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has joined #lnd 09:33 -!- close [5fd0fa5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.208.250.92] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:40 -!- ThatIdiotThatFdU [~asdasdas@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-092.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lnd 09:43 -!- ThatIdiotThatFdU [~asdasdas@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-092.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lnd [] 09:43 -!- ThatIdiotThatFdU [~asdasdas@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-092.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lnd 09:52 -!- pioklo [Pioklo@ip-91.246.70.194.skyware.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:57 -!- Schmeckle [~Schmeckle@gateway/tor-sasl/schmeckle] has joined #lnd 10:02 < Schmeckle> Hi, as I understand it, lnd is an implementation of the lightning protocol, or BOLTs rather and there are others like c-lightning. And then there are actual GUIs that implement say lnd for end users and shops. I want to improve user experience and help onboarding users. I was wondering if there is a GUI implementation that you developers consider "good", "complete" or positive at all. I want to get to know them and determine where my 10:02 < Schmeckle> efforts are best started at 10:03 < Schmeckle> That is my first question, I got another one then, but one after the other 10:03 < molz> Schmeckle, there's "lightning-app" still in testnet testing 10:04 < molz> first off, if you'd like to help with lnd development, get to know lnd how it works, what it does, etc and etc 10:05 < Schmeckle> I have my own btc/lnd node runnning, dabbling a bit in linux et cetera, I am no programmer though and I noticed a distinct lack of actual usability and many UX problems in lnd itself. But then again, lnd isnt meant for an actual end user, the GUI implementations are, thats why I want to focus on these. Except of course lnd has a reference client like bitcoin core has 10:06 < Schmeckle> as in: does it have one? 10:06 < Schmeckle> misphrased it ^^ 10:07 -!- ThatIdiotThatFdU [~asdasdas@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-092.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 10:09 < Schmeckle> If I conclude that all of them are not savable I might start getting together a team to make an actual (dont hit me:) coinbase-like implementation 10:09 < Schmeckle> As in usability 10:11 < Schmeckle> Oh, I just saw that lightning-app is an actual reference implementation of a GUI client by lightning labs? 10:11 < Veggen> molz: true. 10:12 < Veggen> Schmeckle: yup, lightning-app is lightning labs "usability layer" over LND. 10:13 < Veggen> has an internal LND. 10:14 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14 < Schmeckle> Interesting, I will try this one for sure 10:15 < Schmeckle> But then again, bitcoin core isnt the most usable reference implementation ;) 10:15 < Schmeckle> And correct me if im wrong, but lightning-app doesnt seem to be available on mobile? 10:15 < molz> correct 10:16 < molz> Schmeckle, the devs' goal is not to put the carriage before the horse.. so they've been working on the daemon to lay the foundation for apps to be built on it 10:17 < Veggen> Schmeckle: lightning-app is built with a foundation that makes for an easy porting to mobile, i.e. it will be similar on mobile. 10:17 < Schmeckle> Absolutely hear you, yet imagine what it would mean that the actual reference implementation would be the best on market. You'd have far less trust issues for the actual mobile app then. Who else than the implementers of the actual protocol can provide a trusted app that end users can use? 10:18 < Veggen> sure, but there's a limited number of developers and their time :) 10:18 < Veggen> but this is open source, and there's outside developers. Everyone is welcome to participate. 10:19 < Schmeckle> What if we could pool developers of other third-party lightning GUI apps to join and provide some sort of lnd dev auditing? I know this is not as easy as it sounds but wouldnt that be a decent goal? 10:19 < Schmeckle> I mean everyone wants the same thing. good software, happy users and adoption 10:20 < Veggen> well...centralization around one single UI might sound good, but competition and exploring different ideas also breed good results. 10:20 < Veggen> i.e. implementations learn and borrow from each others. 10:21 < Schmeckle> I hear you, yet the striving of providing the best GUI experience on market (whether we succeed or not) would be excellent grounds for competition and excellent measurement of success 10:21 -!- aerth [~aerth@gateway/tor-sasl/aerth] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:21 < Veggen> oh, sure :) 10:21 < Veggen> we need good UX developers. 10:21 < Schmeckle> The thing is, people mostly innovate in terms of doing it better than their competitor - not doing the best they can. 10:21 < Schmeckle> And if you can create the "best" competitor 10:21 < Schmeckle> people will try to be better 10:22 < Schmeckle> And that benefits us all 10:22 < Veggen> I think BLW has decent UX, Eclair too. lightning-app on mobile would be awesome. 10:23 < Schmeckle> BLW? 10:24 < Schmeckle> Im still only used to CLI lnd and I want to get exposure to actual GUIs :) 10:24 < Veggen> Bitcoin Lightning Wallet. It's got decent UX, but since a lot of the tech for watchtowers etc aren't there yet, it uses/trusts their own infrastructure a lot. 10:24 < booyah> BLW is the application which lead developer is a retard regarding naming it 10:24 < booyah> and/or asshole 10:24 < booyah> "Bitcoin Lightning Wallet" 10:24 < Veggen> booyah: well, yah. 10:24 < booyah> can we fork it, and just change the name? 10:24 < Schmeckle> Uhm. Can you enlighten me? Why do you consider that name invalid? 10:24 < Veggen> I look forward to lightning-app on mobile :) 10:25 < booyah> Schmeckle: 1) it tries to falsely imply it is "the" Bitcoin Lightning Wallet, like some official one (it is not even developed by leading LND/c-lightning/etc devels) 10:25 < booyah> 2) it is just fucking dumb. Like a cheesburger brand "Cheesburger ®" 10:26 < booyah> or car Car ® 10:26 < booyah> it will bite him in the ass imo, as no one will recognize his name. Everyone knows Mycelium and Electrum, but BLW? wtf 10:26 < Schmeckle> Interesting politics at play 10:26 < Schmeckle> May I ask you 10:27 < Schmeckle> Imagine to be an end user 10:27 < booyah> Computer ® 10:27 < booyah> or intel. agency front called the Intel ® ... oh wait... :) 10:27 < Schmeckle> Wouldnt it be comforting to have an "official" app? I know theres a line (BCH anyone?) yet deep down do you really despise that guy because of THAT? 10:27 < Schmeckle> It seems petty to me. But then again, I am not in it 100% yet 10:28 < booyah> Schmeckle: this dude certainly is NOT the best client, it is no where close to LND in feautures 10:28 < booyah> so he usurps the title, kind of like bitcoin.com 10:28 < Schmeckle> So consider this: 10:28 < booyah> maybe less so, as no other 1 program is "the" one, even on PC we have two full implementations (c-lightning and LND) 10:29 < Schmeckle> Imagine the guy means well, but doesnt have the resources or the smarts/wits/philosophy of FOSS. He wanted to make a product that people will use and is easy to reckognize. Would you be willing to (maybe through an intermediary) get in touch with him and maybe try to talk it out and enlighten one another? 10:29 < booyah> if most developers of the clients with all feautures, BOLTs etc, come together, and say one app is the best reference application then sure lets name that one BLW, or LightningAndroid etc. 10:30 < booyah> but BLW is not it, and actually is displacing such (theorethical) application by claiming the name/spot 10:30 < Schmeckle> Its not about what devs want, its about what users will use and who is the smartest one to get that name. 10:30 < booyah> Schmeckle: sure, fell free to talk with him about it. I would recommend just picking a normal unique name 10:30 < booyah> or like making email client Email. That's just not good idea for anyone 10:31 < Schmeckle> What if you could unite the false-name-claimer and the actual devs of the actual protocol/implementation 10:31 < Schmeckle> It is a phenomenal idea in terms of enduser perspective 10:31 < Schmeckle> the only problem is that people with not pure intentions usually are there first to claim it 10:31 < booyah> sure, try it 10:31 < booyah> but also would he transfer the name then? 10:32 < booyah> we will have Kuma/BLW and say roasbeef/BLW 10:32 < booyah> it will be bitcoin.{org,com} again 10:33 < booyah> thereofre imo it is best if people do not name their implementations after the protocol/general idea 10:33 -!- aerth [~aerth@gateway/tor-sasl/aerth] has joined #lnd 10:33 < booyah> unless in case the actuall founding fathers of protocol also do write an reference implementation, like e.g. with Freenet, or I2P or Tor 10:33 < booyah> * Bitcoin, I2P or Tor 10:33 < Schmeckle> I hear you. I got some stuff to work out now and I will be back with more information. I havent done such things before but I have the feeling that a mediating person and coordination are a thing that is kind of missing. Who could blame a decentralization movement for that tho :P But let's live in today, not in 2050 10:34 < booyah> or make it joined name, like LightningKuma or something (he's name is Kuma) 10:34 < Schmeckle> booyah: Again, it might be best from a dev standpoint. But the end user matters. not the devs. They matter in other areas, but not in that 10:38 < Schmeckle> Why would an end user want to go through the hoops of finding out which wallet is "the best"? Most will take what is looking official. And thats not a bad thing. The bad thing are the people falsely claiming that "title". Why do they do that? Because the right people didn't do it first. 10:39 < Schmeckle> Devs are notorious for not thinking from an end user perspective. That is the whole reason we even have titles like UX designer or UI designer 10:43 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 10:44 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48 < Schmeckle> Everyone has their place, otherwise we wouldnt be where we are now. I just try to make sure that the people with the right intentions lead the UX stuff ;) 10:52 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has joined #lnd 10:55 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has joined #lnd 11:25 -!- Schmeckle [~Schmeckle@gateway/tor-sasl/schmeckle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48 -!- sNT [051c6791@gateway/web/freenode/ip.5.28.103.145] has joined #lnd 11:50 < sNT> Hey, I have some questions regarding a planned stresstest of mine. I want to setup two nodes which create invoices and pay them to see how many tx they can achieve per second in average. My question is which API I should use? My LND-Node is running fine atm. I tried out lndgrpc (python) but failed due to very rare documentation and lack of time to tinker.. Any ideas? 11:51 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@66.87.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lnd 12:07 < Veggen> sNT: grpc would be good, I'd guess. Or rest, but I think keeping a connection open would be more effective. 12:09 < sNT> I currently try to implement a simple pay for an invoice and I can't get my head around it. At the official api reference paying an invoice via python is extreme compared to shell itself. Do you have any links towards examples or something? I just have the request hash and the parameterlist is much longer^^ 12:18 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has joined #lnd 12:20 < Veggen> sNT: have you got grpc working? can do simple stuff like getinfo ? 12:20 < sNT> I am currently setting up grpc .. was working with something else named lndgrpc before.. 12:21 < sNT> Thanks so far.. I will report back as soon as I got everything running 12:21 < Veggen> probably a wrapper of something. 12:22 < Veggen> I did some work on that a while ago. Made some scripts. See https://lnd.engen.priv.no/scripts.html 12:22 < Veggen> (grpc with python) 12:22 < sNT> thanks alot 12:48 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@unaffiliated/manantial] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:04 < sNT> I setup everything and as I try to getinfo it throws "NameError: name 'macaroon' is not defined" 13:04 < sNT> wait.. I got it 13:06 < sNT> okay, getinfo is running no problemos 13:13 < molz> lol this channel got busy on new year day? lightning must be awesome in 2019 :D 13:22 < sNT> currently it's me not understanding shit :'D 13:22 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 13:30 < sNT> How can I pay an invoice using grpc? 13:32 -!- github-lnd [github-lnd@gateway/service/github.com/x-lyoabltlraerdlpa] has joined #lnd 13:32 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] johng opened pull request #2395: Fix go module issue (master...go-mod-fix) https://git.io/fhtNW 13:32 -!- github-lnd [github-lnd@gateway/service/github.com/x-lyoabltlraerdlpa] has left #lnd [] 14:12 -!- dermoth_ [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 14:40 -!- gethh [uid264798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mzmkgbgfsvztszlb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:03 -!- user [~user@199.241.125.108] has joined #lnd 15:10 -!- user [~user@199.241.125.108] has quit [Quit: user] 15:21 < ctrlbreak> payment request and payment_hash aren't the same thing are they? 15:25 -!- user420 [~user420@199.241.125.108] has joined #lnd 15:27 < molz> ctrlbreak, a "payment request" is like an invoice 15:27 < ctrlbreak> I think I've got it... 15:28 < ctrlbreak> I've created a test invoice on my CL node... and it clearly lists both the payment_hash and related bolt11 request 15:28 -!- user420 [~user420@199.241.125.108] has quit [Quit: user420] 15:29 -!- user420 [~user420@199.241.125.108] has joined #lnd 15:29 < ctrlbreak> I *think* I'm ready to construct my very first manual rebalancing payment over a manually chosen route from LND now... 15:29 < ctrlbreak> hehehe 15:31 -!- gethh [uid264798@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvxdjuafjetvoqcw] has joined #lnd 15:31 < ctrlbreak> Arrrghhh!! 15:31 < ctrlbreak> [lncli] unable to unmarshal json string from incoming array of routes: unknown field "total_fees_msat" in lnrpc.QueryRoutesResponse 15:32 < ctrlbreak> I must be missing some structure, lol. 15:35 < sNT> Well I fail to pay an invoice via grpc aswell.. got my payment request code but struggle with the documentation of the functions. 15:41 < ctrlbreak> Hmmm... 15:41 < ctrlbreak> "payment_error": "IncorrectPaymentAmount", 15:43 < ctrlbreak> ARRRRGHHHH!!!! 15:43 < ctrlbreak> "payment_error": "FinalExpiryTooSoon", 15:44 < ctrlbreak> lol. Something tells me these are all intended to be constructed programatically and my attempts to manually coble these together is an issue :-S 15:50 < molz> sNT you can't do "lncli payinvoice " ? 15:51 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55 < ctrlbreak> Anyone have any idea what I actually need to adjust here? It appears lncli is accepting the manual route I'm supplying it, and the payment_hash is for an invoice with a 24 hour expiration I just created?? 15:56 < ctrlbreak> lnd@LNDMainnet:~$ cat myroute2 | lncli sendtoroute --payment_hash=6b5ec560299e0caa2a187632d493453091ca0c7773169ca0e2cb1cda86ada4d6 - 15:56 < ctrlbreak> { 15:56 < ctrlbreak> "payment_error": "FinalExpiryTooSoon", 15:56 < ctrlbreak> "payment_preimage": "", 15:58 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00 < molz> ctrlbreak, are you on lnd slack? 16:01 < molz> if you ask Paul on the slack he'll help you 16:03 -!- user420 [~user420@199.241.125.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03 < ctrlbreak> No... I'm not on the Slack... I'm losing track of 'Slacks' :-/ 16:04 < ctrlbreak> I'm just about out of time for tonight too... but I feel like I'm really close. 16:05 -!- user420 [~user420@199.241.125.108] has joined #lnd 16:10 < sNT> I want to make a python script.. normal shell commands are working aswell as getinfo 16:11 < ctrlbreak> It really shouldn't be this difficult to try and rebalance your own channels :-( 16:20 < molz> ctrlbreak, it's not according to Paul 16:20 < ctrlbreak> Who's Paul? 16:21 < ctrlbreak> Also, dinner time with the wife... but perhaps I'll try to get into the Slack first. 16:25 < molz> Paul is someone who doesn't like IRC .. LOL 16:35 -!- thomasanderson [~thomasand@66.133.78.104] has joined #lnd 16:47 < sNT> Someone able and willing to help me with grpc python code? 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