--- Day changed Mon Feb 11 2019
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07:41 < Pauldb> Hello everyone,
07:42 < Pauldb> I was wondering, I believe the LN is the way forward, but that it will put pressure on the LN nodes. Plus managing one's personnal node is cumbersome. We are in strong need of something new
07:43 < Pauldb> I picture in my mind something like a decentralized Linux, where anyone could contribute Processing power and RAM and disk space. And the configuration of this Linux
07:43 < Pauldb> would stand on a huge quantity of HW, so very resistant even in ddos attacks, we would then simply need to install the LN here, even a orignial node, and even more stuff
07:44 < Pauldb> each user would have its /home/myname directory
07:44 < Pauldb> Only few people would have root access, base on vote directly on the blockchain, for governance
07:45 < Pauldb> it would be the hugest most powerful and decentralized linux, it would solve the bottleneck of LN, which otherwise is great
07:45 < Pauldb> what do you think ? I see something along these lines happening in 3-5 years..
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07:55 < molz> no clue what you want to say but btw, there's no 'voting' or 'governance' nonsense in bitcoin
07:57 < rafalcpp> Pauldb: well... ay kind of such "cloud computer" is not a good idea to store any crypto any any privkeys on
07:59 < molz> plenty of nodes run on vps servers if they know what they're doing but i think he's talking about some custodial thingy?
07:59 < molz> some custodial wallets do exist currently, btw, but that's not what ln is about 
08:01 < Pauldb> Ethereum is almost something like this, I was just thinking the same but for Linux (or even any other)
08:03 < rafalcpp> Pauldb: eth is almost dead
08:04 < rafalcpp> under own weight
08:05 < Pauldb> thing is I wanted to start my own LN node, but then I thought, what's the best place to have it ? At home I wouldn't want it to shut down for whatever reason, on a cloud provider service, maybe if my hdd is crypted so the provider can't touch my VM
08:05 < Pauldb> but then i'm dependant on the provider to have 100% uptime with its hardware
08:05 < Pauldb> that's when it hit me, we should have a global decentralized cloud computer on top of the blockchain
08:06 < Pauldb> there I would have trust to put my node
08:08 < ysangkok> how do you encode this "linux in a blockchain" ?
08:08 < molz> you can start a ln node on a laptop
08:08 < molz> lol     
08:08 < ysangkok> how do you incentivize users to run it?
08:09 < Pauldb> yes and I probably will, but then not everyone is skilled enough to do that, and even the skilled, for the previous reasons i menteionned, would not necessarily want to
08:09 < molz> lolol " we should have a global decentralized cloud computer on top of the blockchain" you must be kidding us ??? lmao
08:09 < Pauldb> probably the reaction first person hearing about the blockchain on top of millions of computers
08:10 < ysangkok> it's not called a computer if the individual parts do not communicate!
08:10 < Pauldb> but then again here we are, actually your reaction is normal and almost convincing me that it is the way forward
08:10 < ysangkok> ethereum is called a "world computer", but as peter todd mentions in his recent podcast, it is actually just verifying the computation a billion times
08:11 < Pauldb> ethereum is flawed, good idea, bad foundation
08:14 < Pauldb> the hard drive part for this world computer is already almost complete: Filecoin, IPFS. allow to save files securely and with incentive for "file miners" to store file in decentralized fashion. This would be where the Decentralized World Computer's system file would live
08:19 < Pauldb> We would use a sharing computing power economy like Golem for the CPU part
08:20 < Pauldb> and laslty the RAM, i'm sure there is a project like this. It would suffice that someone create a first machine of this type, completely decentralizd that can't be shutdown anymore
08:20 < ysangkok> you can't just handwave something like this
08:20 < Pauldb> its use would grow exponentially incentivsing people to put resource into it, securing it more and making it more powerful. Useful services would be installedi n it
08:21 < Pauldb> yea of course not, there are a lot of technicalities to take care of, I do realize the huge challenge
08:21 < Pauldb> I'm just wondering if it seems, even, plausible
08:21 < ysangkok> everything might seem plausible if you have never tried building something like it
08:23 < ysangkok> Pauldb: why not just fork https://github.com/cosme12/SimpleCoin and add your suggested additions?
08:30 < Pauldb> Actually for this kind of thing i believe most tools are already there, it's just a question of connecting everything together...and paying for it! 
08:40 < molz> who would be paying for it?
09:01 < Veggen> Pauldb: you should take a look at Bitcoin SV ;P They believe in gathering all of the internet on the blockchain.
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09:02 < Veggen> you can't encode that much on a blockchain withouth centralizing it. So it's not bitcoin-related ;P
09:02 < Pauldb> I for sure would contribute to such a computer, put my drives and cpu power for it, in exchange of having a /home/Pauldb folder and ability to run software (in exchange for whatever crypto of course)
09:03 < molz> lol     
09:03 < Pauldb> Bitcoin SV is very nice actually also
09:04 < Veggen> well. As long as you don't pretend it's a decentralized cryptocurrency, maybe.
09:06 < Pauldb> what makes you say that ?
09:06 < Veggen> because big blocks leads to centralization incentives. Lots of. And that's not disputable, even.
09:07 < Pauldb> I think there are two approach to solving the scalability issue, long term LN is the real way to go, but we need more people and more trust otherwise it becomes centralized. This issue will be solved by itself as more people onboard
09:07 < Pauldb> but then there is also the second road, short term vision
09:07 < Pauldb> that before we get enough people, having bigger block is a "temporary" solution
09:07 < Veggen> ...except we'll in the mean term have wasted a few hundred GB block space that every node forever need to sync, at startup.
09:08 < Pauldb> I predict short term/medium term BSV go high because of its usablity *right now*, long term LN takes the lead
09:08 < Pauldb> simply to alternative solution with different time frame in mind, the way I see it
09:08 < Pauldb> it's not a proble
09:08 < Pauldb> Satoshi himself saud
09:08 < NeonLicht> More people will use it when it's eassier to do so, and there are mobile apps which support LN, I think,
09:08 < Pauldb> that having long chain with huge block will not be that much of a matter in the long run as capactiy double nearly every 18 months
09:09 < Veggen> it does not.
09:09 < molz> guys, this channel is for LND development, you can create your own channel to chat, just fyi
09:10 < Veggen> agreed.
09:10 < Pauldb> https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09964.html
09:11 < Veggen> read it.
09:11 < Veggen> also read what he said later.
09:11 < Pauldb> Anyway thanks for LND development guys, you truly are building the future !!
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09:33 < Veggen> molz: was he genuine? or a troll? Just...puzzled.
09:34 < molz> oh Veggen pfft you couldn't tell? :P
09:34 < molz> but either or.. it was offtopic, i don't think the devs would like to read so much text 
09:35 < Veggen> true.
09:38 < Talkless> Veggen: what's "attemtint local|remote commitment" verbose messages in logs?
09:39 < Talkless> attemting*
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09:41 < molz> Talkless, this is a reall good site for resources just in case you need it:  https://lnroute.com/
09:42 < molz> someone posted it on lnd slack
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10:06 < rafalcpp> Veggen: looks to me like just thinking out of the box. How ever all world computer things are not usable for private keys and coin's wallets
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11:00 < marijnfs_> i'm trying to get my head around sphinx and hornet routing, I see hornet is not really implemented yet in the lightning network, is that right?
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11:23 < cluelessperson> hey, it's been awhile since I ran a lightning node, I moved.
11:23 < cluelessperson> does lightning require a balance in a bitcoind wallet?
11:23 < cluelessperson> or does it just use the bitcoind rpc?
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11:24 < cluelessperson> does bitcoind need to be a full node?
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11:35 < drolmer> LND has it own internal wallet, no need for balance on bitcoind... ideally full node (until neutrino is fully ready) but I think you could use pruned node with the blocks since LND's wallet's birthday
11:36 < drolmer> but full-node with txindex=1 is the best and most performant way atm
11:41 < cluelessperson> ah, last time I recall I had to recompile with wallet enabled.
11:41 < cluelessperson> don't recall if it was used or not
11:42 < cluelessperson> no big deal, easy requirements then. :)
11:42 < cluelessperson> thanks
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11:59 < CryptoSigmund> hiho, can anybody tell me how long a rescan with "./dropwtxmgr" will take?
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12:35 -!- roasbeef changed the topic of #lnd to: lnd - the Lightning Network Daemon (https://lightning.engineering/) - v0.5.2-beta is the latest release - https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd - Go 1.11 is the recommended version - https://faucet.lightning.community/ - http://dev.lightning.community/
12:36 < AlexJoans> CryptoSigmund, depends on how old your wallet it.
12:38 < AlexJoans> CryptoSigmund, On a old i5 laptop a wallet from March took about three hours.
12:39 <@roasbeef> more so depends on how old your wallet is 
12:42 < AlexJoans> roasbeef, why are people pitching to watch you code? I can't think of anything more boring then to watch a stoic face occasionally say stuff like ... FFS or awesome
12:44 < AlexJoans> roasbeef, on the other hand you could accept tips via lightning if you do. Some kid on Twitch had 12 BTC sent to him not long ago gaming.
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12:48 < molz> AlexJoans, lmao
12:48 < molz> fisho ?
12:50 < buZz> AlexJoans: actually, geohot often twitch streams himself programming
12:50 < buZz> its quite entertaining tbh
12:53 < AlexJoans> What people think programing is and what it actually is xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HluANRwPyNo
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17:41 < Guest4352> Hey, so I setup a ln/btc node on a raspi and connected Zap to it. Everything worked great, I setup 2 channels and closed one with LNBIG. The channel closed, but I never got the BTC back. Any ideas?
17:43 < molz> look in `pendingchannels`
17:45 < Guest4352> pending channels?
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17:49 <@roasbeef> lncli pendingchannels
17:50 <@roasbeef> it show when all the funds will be returned to your wallet
17:53 < Guest4352> Thanks! Can you explain what may have happened? I'm actually seeing the channel now but what's the difference between pending_force_closing_channels and waiting_close?
17:54 < Guest4352> Zap showed an on-chain BTC transaction to a wallet that was not mine when I closed the channel for the proper amount. It's been nearly 24 hours.
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17:56 <@roasbeef> waiting close is we broadcasted something, but it hasn't hit the chain yet 
17:57 <@roasbeef> pending force close, means a force close sicne the other party wasn't onlien or available, this time locks funds for a period of time
17:57 <@roasbeef> the amount of time depends on how large the cahnnel was 
17:57 <@roasbeef> not sure how zap handles this display 
17:57 <@roasbeef> this is how things work under the covers at least 
17:57 <@roasbeef> a cooperative close happens if the other party is there, and then sign off on stuff, at that point there's no delay, and as soon as it hits the chain you can spend those funds once again 
17:58 < Guest4352> Does going into the pending force close state trigger an on-chain transaction at all or could Zap have gotten confused about what it's showing?
17:58 <@roasbeef> it may not look like it's from teh wallet since it spends a multi-sig output, that multi-sig is actually the channel 
17:58 <@roasbeef> yes it can add more on-chain transactions, as we need to sweep that time locked outputs 
18:00 < Guest4352> Ah OK, I'll wait a bit then. I think I found the block number where it will release the output.
18:01 < Guest4352> And yeah, that's exactly what happened - I closed the channel when the peer was down.
18:01 < Guest4352> Thank you so much! This was incredibly helpful!
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18:01 <@roasbeef> in the future, lnd will be smarted about choosing peers with higher historical uptime before selecting them as channel peers 
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18:04 < Guest4352> In this case, it was my fault ;-) It was a manually opened channel.
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18:19 < lndbot> <jimmymow> hey Guest4352
18:21 < lndbot> <jimmymow> Zap's Desktop channel UI is so bad right now lol it doesn't do LND or users many favors currently. have lots of new channel things to make it better, releasing within the next few weeks hopefully
18:27 < Guest4352> @jimmymow how did you send that msg through lndbot?
18:28 < lndbot> <jimmymow> im on the slack GUI
18:28 < lndbot> <jimmymow> speakin through da bridge
18:32 < Guest4352> Ah, well thanks for the heads up! Looking forward to future releases. I was about to check the Zap github and check to see if it supported forceclose channels.
18:34 < lndbot> <jimmymow> yeah it does, but again just a UX issue. if youre familiar with the command line you can test out some of the new stuff now/soonish. PRs starting get merged and such
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18:46 < Guest4352> Cool, I get it - I'm a software engineer. I'm a little torn. I love Zap's simplicity but I also think it would be helpful to have some "advanced" view or something where it would show more detailed channel stats and pending and waiting channel closures. Thoughts?
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18:48 < lndbot> <jimmymow> yeah that's basically the direction. getting rid of that side bar channel thing and having a channel management section with much more detail for advanced users. lots of the designs and new stuff are open PRs rn
18:49 < Guest4352> Cool, I'll go check it out
18:50 < Guest4352> thanks again for everyone's help! This community is awesome.
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21:31 < CryptoSi_> Hiho again, do I have to stop bitcoind and lnd for execute dropwtxmgr to rescan?
21:36 <@roasbeef> no, it should be online 
21:36 <@roasbeef> no     
21:36 <@roasbeef> lol i mean turn itr off
21:36 <@roasbeef> turn it all off
21:37 <@roasbeef> CryptoSi_: ok so turn off lnd, to the dropwtxmgr command, then restart lnd
21:37 <@roasbeef> you can keep bitcoind online while you're doing all of this 
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21:56 < CryptoSi_> thx, and lnd also?
22:02 < molz> CryptoSi_, do you know how to run dropwtxmgr?
22:02 < molz> i posted the link here for you the other day
22:04 < molz> to use dropwtxmgr just make sure you have it installed, then run this command:  dropwtxmgr --db ~/.lnd/data/chain/bitcoin/mainnet/wallet.db
22:05 < CryptoSi_> yeah its already running since 8 hours on my raspi with cpu use about 1% thats why i m asking
22:05 < molz> oh..raspi
22:05 < CryptoSi_> not shure why it dont uses more cpu but I did everything you told me
22:06 < molz> everything takes longer with those raspies
22:11 < bitconner> CryptoSi_, dropwtxmgr is taking 8 hours? or resyncing after the drop
22:11 < bitconner> ?     
22:26 < CryptoSi_> it already runs for 8 hours now
22:26 < CryptoSi_> should it stop autmaticly and end the process?
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22:53 <@roasbeef> CryptoSi_: what does, lnd? 
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