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-!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:24 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 04:27 -!- lcpfnvcy [~mememe@snownose.org] has joined #lnd 04:28 -!- hello [1fa12511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.161.37.17] has joined #lnd 04:40 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 04:41 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:46 -!- hello [1fa12511@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.161.37.17] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:52 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lnd 04:54 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 05:06 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 05:08 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:08 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 05:10 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:17 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 05:17 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 05:20 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #lnd 05:25 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 05:26 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:27 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 05:27 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 05:29 < tuxx> hey guys.. is there any advice on how to select channel peers to ensure that you get the greatest amount of graph coverage 05:29 < tuxx> just select nodes with the highest number of peers? 05:31 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:35 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37 -!- MaxSan [~four@134.19.179.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:53 < lndbot> You don’t need to open a channel to get graph coverage, gossip network protocol is activated upon simple connect to peers 05:53 < lndbot> Plus there are historical syncs so yeah just connect to well connected nodes 05:54 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 05:54 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:01 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 06:18 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 06:18 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:19 < tuxx> eugene: by graph coverage i meant being able to send money to a great number of graphs 06:20 < tuxx> (but yea possibly not the right term) 06:21 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-226-188.dab.02.net] has joined #lnd 06:22 < tuxx> just connecting to a node with a great number of connections feels like i'd be adding on to node centralization 06:39 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39 -!- x000 [~x000@unaffiliated/x000] has joined #lnd 06:48 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 06:48 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54 < molz> "centralization" doesn't mean squat on LN, it's not like those nodes can change the bitcoin protocol, they can't, more likely it just means you might have a channel with an unstable nodes because most nodes can't handle too many channels 07:02 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@pcd537031.netvigator.com] has joined #lnd 07:14 < termos> i changed the alias on my node but it's not reflected by f. eks 1ml.com for about 4 days. Do I need to push the name change out somehow? 07:15 < termos> `getinfo` shows the correct new alias 07:15 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-226-188.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:21 < lndbot> Well it’s not really contributing to centralization because this is the gossip protocol not routing payments through or to one node 07:21 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lnd 07:25 < lndbot> Oh I gotcha you want to send money to a lot of nodes 07:26 < lndbot> If you’re connecting to the “edge” of the graph, you’ll likely have more fees bc of more hops to destination 07:26 < lndbot> So ideally open a channel to some well connected nodes 07:35 < tuxx> molz: i disagree that it doesnt mean squat 07:36 < tuxx> molz: e.g. if there are only a handful of very big hubs that everyone connects to then those hubs could choose to censor payments for example 07:36 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 07:36 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:36 < molz> censor how? 07:37 < tuxx> by not routing payments to a blacklist of pubkeys e.g. 07:37 < tuxx> i guess the onion routing protocol might make that difficult however 07:38 < lndbot> You could connect to the nodes they’re connected to 07:38 < molz> i haven't seen it, you'll have to prove it to me 07:38 < lndbot> They only know previous and next nodes in multi hip 07:38 < tuxx> lndbot: sure but then i might as well do an onchain payment 07:38 < molz> lol 07:38 < molz> you know it's easier for onchain txs to get censored? 07:39 < tuxx> molz: how so? conspiring miners? 07:40 < tuxx> eugene: i agree onion routing actually does make censorship pretty difficult 07:40 < lndbot> Actually let me correct myself 07:40 < lndbot> They don’t know source or exit 07:40 < lndbot> So you can just connect with them, but they could GUESS 07:40 < tuxx> eugene: the first node knows the entry and the last node knows the exit 07:40 < lndbot> Based on cltv values and other things 07:41 < tuxx> my point is simplt that, if the best approach is: "just connect to the biggest nodes" then that sounds like it would inevitably lead to extreme centralization 07:47 < lndbot> First hop doesn’t know entry and last doesn’t know exit 07:49 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lnd 07:52 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 07:52 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:56 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:58 < tuxx> eugene: how can it not? the first node receives data through the connection with the payment sender 07:59 < lndbot> They don’t know the sender, all the hop info is all blinded 07:59 < lndbot> It’s bolt 4 07:59 < tuxx> eugene: but then how is it able to convey information back to the node? 07:59 < tuxx> or is that not required? 08:02 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@pcd537031.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@pcd537031.netvigator.com] has joined #lnd 08:05 < tuxx> e.g. to report failure along the route 08:05 < lndbot> Also if a node is censoring payments to its direct channel peers or blackholing payments, they can just construct a route around that node (eventually) 08:05 < lndbot> It’s encrypted forward and back with ECDH ephemeral keys 08:06 < tuxx> lndbot: provided there are routes 08:06 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@46.233.78.173] has joined #lnd 08:06 < lndbot> It’s required, it’s the UpdateFailHTLC and UpdateFailMalformedHTLC 08:06 < lndbot> messages 08:07 < tuxx> e.g. if it becomes a habbit for nodes to only have a handful of connections to a few single large payment processors .. then constructing a route around them would prove rather difficult 08:09 < michaelfolkson> You know the IP address or Tor address of the node you receive a payment from and you know the IP address or Tor address of the node you are sending a payment to. But you don't know any details about the route apart from that. 08:10 < tuxx> isnt that what i said? 08:10 < lndbot> That doesn’t tell you entry or exit 08:10 < lndbot> It’s just previous and next 08:10 < lndbot> And I think the network would reward non malicious peers 08:11 < tuxx> well maybe they are not identifiable as such (exit, or entry) 08:11 < tuxx> but they *are* "known" 08:11 < tuxx> to the corressponding peers at least i mean 08:11 < lndbot> Yeah 08:12 < tuxx> pretty cool nonetheless 08:12 < tuxx> i wonder what regulatory agencies think of it tho :) 08:12 < lndbot> Yeah idk lol 08:13 < tuxx> i wonder how long it will take before gov agencies start trying to infiltrate the network by running their own nodes 08:13 < tuxx> supposedly they do run quite a few tor nodes 08:15 < michaelfolkson> Bitcoin and Lightning are mostly designed assuming participants are malicious. If gov agencies want to buy Bitcoin and set up routing nodes they can. To censor payments they would need to own practically all Lightning nodes. You just need one possible route bypassing them to get a payment through. 08:17 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@pcd537031.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 08:18 -!- marijnfs__ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:19 < michaelfolkson> I do think there will be elements of centralization for those who want to minimize number of hops, fees and maximize probability of routing success. But then there will also be demand for routes that don't go through these centralized nodes for greater privacy 08:21 < tuxx> michaelfolkson: well thats why i feel its important to prevent centralization.. if say for example all merchants only maintain a single channel to a few large payment processor then there wld be no routable path to them other than through the payment processors... then it would be impossible to route a payment... if regulatory agencies decided to force payment processors or hubs to blacklist certain people, i 08:21 < tuxx> guess the onion routing nature of lightning network would indeed make it hard/impossible for the payment processor to identify the origin of funds 08:22 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 08:22 < michaelfolkson> But as said earlier, centralization of Lightning nodes is nowhere near as worrying as centralization of Bitcoin miners. Anyone can set up a routing node and offer a path around the centralized routing nodes. Much more difficult to successfully mine a Bitcoin block and ensure censored transactions are included in a block. 08:22 < tuxx> michaelfolkson: agreed. 08:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29 < michaelfolkson> There are subtle things that can be done to prevent centralization of routing nodes. Ensuring autopilot sets up channels with smaller routing nodes is one. But ultimately if users want to minimize number of hops and minimize fees by using large routing nodes you can't prevent them from doing so. If it is important to you don't open channels with them yourself. 08:31 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd 08:37 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@46.233.78.173] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 08:42 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:42 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 08:58 -!- AbuseOfNotation [~AbuseOfNo@217.151.98.168] has joined #lnd 08:58 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has joined #lnd 08:58 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@46.233.78.173] has joined #lnd 09:00 -!- drexl [~drexl@188.166.71.168] has joined #lnd 09:04 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lnd 09:08 -!- marijnfs [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lnd 09:08 -!- marijnfs_ [~marijnfs@x4d077a85.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:10 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] 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seconds] 12:15 <@roasbeef> waxwing: on the client side, if you know a keypath then you can just provide that, or a key that you received from the WalletKit sub-server 12:15 <@roasbeef> eugene: runnin gwith the dev build tag? 12:15 <@roasbeef> eugene: also what OS are you runnin gon? 12:15 <@roasbeef> MaxSan: what do you mean verified? 12:16 -!- takinbo [sid19838@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmjdifsocslcvitq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:16 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvjzmtcswfivhrfv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:16 < waxwing> roasbeef, yeah thanks, been thinking about it, i'm imagining a situation where i have knowledge of my coins (via listunspent); i have addresses and scriptpubkeys but not paths. re: WalletKit, i did look at that, but i don't think it would provide a way to get that info on existing coins(?) 12:16 <@roasbeef> michaelfolkson: dunno who they are, just popped up, but yeah we have a similar project, theirs seems to be purely off of static graph data, while we look at the active state of the network 12:16 -!- valwal_ [sid334773@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ygwbmhlhjmnoqdvi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:16 <@roasbeef> x000: we don't use gitter, only IRC 12:17 < waxwing> seems easy enough if you can access the underlying wallet, but ofc the interface is specifically not exposing that (that's kinda the point :))). 12:19 <@roasbeef> tuxx: graph cov can mean many things, there're a number of variables to optimize for, but given that it's a marketplace, you can get diret feedback from the environment 12:20 <@roasbeef> waxwing: if you have the pubkey, then you can provide that 12:20 <@roasbeef> what more information do you need? 12:20 < waxwing> yup, but that isn't exposed currently 12:21 < waxwing> i mean, listunspent doesn't show it; i'm thinking of an existing utxo, maybe i missed something? 12:21 <@roasbeef> the key desc lets you provide the raw pubkey 12:21 -!- Guest1469 [sid19838@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sojffothjulkiyil] has joined #lnd 12:21 <@roasbeef> if you know the script, then you probably know the pubkey if you generated it 12:21 < waxwing> imagine any situation where you might want to use a psbt; a coinjoin or some manual offline signing with existing coins in the wallet. 12:22 -!- bosma [sid103570@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmszhbthostrqbfk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:23 < waxwing> don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it's a deficiency, this is fairly speculative investigation (as you know i was/am looking into possible coinjoin setups), and i don't claim it's *wrong* that the wallet wraps all this stuff, but; am i wrong that in the case of a standard set of utxos that lnd owns, there is no way to access that info? 12:24 <@roasbeef> you can get a new key here: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnrpc/walletrpc/walletkit.proto#L92 12:24 <@roasbeef> what more do you need? 12:25 < waxwing> well concretely imagine i want to take an existing utxo in the wallet and sign a spend of it which i created outside the wallet (say, coinjoin with other utxos). 12:27 <@roasbeef> so you either want listunspent to add additonal info, or for something like this to be exposed over RPC? https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwallet/interface.go#L133 12:28 -!- Guest1469 [sid19838@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sojffothjulkiyil] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28 < waxwing> the first, yes, that's a possibility, the second i'm not sure, it seems that it only provides a txout which is not enough for an unspent coin, to be able to build a keydescriptor, right. 12:29 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:29 < waxwing> indeed the first is the best i could come up with, just basically enriching the output of listunspent a bit, i mean you could conceivably add an HD path but i guess a pubkey is somehow more logical for that. 12:30 <@roasbeef> ah ok i see what you're saying 12:31 <@roasbeef> so to add something to WalletKit that provides enough context to make a sign desc for an arbitrary output under the control of thw allet 12:32 < waxwing> yes, that sums it up more clearly i think. 12:32 <@roasbeef> which would be: KeyLocator and the WitnessScript? 12:32 < waxwing> yeah good point ,you need all for SignDescriptor, i forget the full list 12:34 < waxwing> but no you're right, it's witnesscript and keydescriptor, isn't it (according to SignOutputRaw) 12:35 < waxwing> no dammit, wrong again, it's indeed signdescriptor :) 12:35 <@roasbeef> a roundabout way to do this today: obtain new key, craft that into a p2wkh, then send coins to that, you now have all the info required 12:36 < waxwing> heh well yes that does work :) but not really what i'm after. i'm a bit curious tho' about the purpose of the signrpc if you can't sign transactions out of the wallet with it? 12:36 < waxwing> or, more likely, i just haven't seen exactly what's possible there. 12:37 < waxwing> i suppose in certain scenarios you'd just have kept that info via some other process. 12:37 <@roasbeef> you can, but the use case that it was designed for involves more diret contracts 12:37 <@roasbeef> so these are things that the wallet can't sign on its own anyway 12:37 <@roasbeef> coinjoin is a bit diff 12:38 < waxwing> yeah it's not hard to imagine it'd work fine for other use cases. 12:38 <@roasbeef> but i def think it makes sense to add that additional RPC call to WalletKit so that together with the Signer service, they're complete 12:38 < waxwing> ok i can maybe take a look at that? i'm assuming it's not exactly a priority for anyone else :) 12:41 -!- valwal_ [sid334773@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vhagwgvkgmyhaknr] has joined #lnd 12:41 -!- bosma [sid103570@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wlclgombkqzxipmz] has joined #lnd 12:42 <@roasbeef> sure 12:42 -!- Guest1469 [sid19838@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khjxhymesieoomuc] has joined #lnd 12:42 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-byshrxslvoxqwbwd] has joined #lnd 12:42 < lndbot> I was running with the dev build tag on the most recent Mac 12:43 < lndbot> I’ve seen similar failures on Ubuntu, but make check passes 12:43 <@roasbeef> oh mac can be weird sometimes 12:43 <@roasbeef> since i/o is 10-30x slower after go 1.12 12:44 <@roasbeef> which is why we've had to extend many timeouts in areas like the integration tests 12:44 -!- ChrisMorrisOrg_ [sid151627@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qhiejzqtijqvjaqq] has joined #lnd 12:47 < waxwing> roasbeef, seems this is quite directly connected to what we discussed: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/2991 12:52 <@roasbeef> yeah it's kinda related 12:52 <@roasbeef> what we just talked about is a smaller change though 12:52 <@roasbeef> that's more a: no more coin selection in btcwallet thing, the wallet source gives us outputs and we do the rest 12:53 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 12:53 <@roasbeef> can imagine things like: i'm making a 1 BTC channel, i have a 1.01 BTC output, lemmie just put that entier thing into the cahnnel and not have to worry about change 12:55 < waxwing> right it's only a subset of that larger set of stuff, i was just a bit concerned that it would be wrong to start adding other stuff to the rpc interface that didn't agree with that, but .. i guess if it's fairly minor it won't make much difference ... and in any case these rpc interfaces are not exposed yet. 12:55 < waxwing> hmm 'minor' .. everything like this seems minor until you try to do it :) 12:55 < lndbot> The tests individually passed when I ran them alone 12:56 < lndbot> But not together, so maybe due to t.Parallel 13:00 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 13:05 -!- scoop [~scoop@205.178.77.52] has joined #lnd 13:14 <@roasbeef> or just the global mac os nerf to Go that happened in 1.12 :( 13:14 <@roasbeef> basically before, file.Sync() didn't really do anything under most circumstances 13:14 <@roasbeef> they were using the wrong syscall in the runtime 13:15 <@roasbeef> they use the correct one now, but that makes things waaway slower since the equiv to fsync on darwain is like 30x slower than linux 13:15 <@roasbeef> you can also try running them on 1.11 to see the diff 13:15 <@roasbeef> it's _very_ noticible 13:19 < lndbot> Ah word I’ll try on 1.11 13:25 <@roasbeef> or just come to terms with 1.12 ;) 13:25 <@roasbeef> it was a big L 13:25 <@roasbeef> i've accepted it now tho 13:25 <@roasbeef> moved on with my life 13:32 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:32 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd 13:34 -!- ctrlbreak [~ctrlbreak@156.34.88.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:35 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.107] has joined #lnd 13:37 -!- AbuseOfNotation [~AbuseOfNo@217.151.98.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:45 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 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