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11:31 < downystreet> You guys don't give a shit 11:32 < downystreet> fuck you 11:32 < downystreet> cock sucking assholes 11:32 < downystreet> you guys probably pocketed that money youselves 11:33 < downystreet> nice program assholes 11:33 < downystreet> why dont instead of opening up a few lightning channels. why don't you just take a pile driver and stick it right up my asshole instead because that would be better than this shit 11:34 < downystreet> $225 gone with the wind 11:34 < downystreet> and i had to go to the god damn gas stations and buy fucking bitcoin at the bitcoin atms that charges 20% 11:34 < downystreet> fuck this shit 11:34 < downystreet> piece of shit mother fuckers 11:35 < downystreet> you guys made off with $225 from one channel close and theirs nothing i can do about it 11:35 < downystreet> cock suckers 11:37 < downystreet> Where's my money assholes 11:38 < downystreet> You're telling me that closing channels takes 77% of my mone? 11:38 < downystreet> this is a fucking scam 11:39 < downystreet> Where's my money assholes, I haven't heard a peep out of one of you stupid ass mother fuckers 11:41 < downystreet> I opened 20 channels in 2 days and make several payments over the network and then the channels become unusable to route money so I close them out and lose 77% of close to $300 11:41 < downystreet> and you assholes don't have a word to say about it 11:42 < downystreet> fuck all of you stupid ass mother fuckers 11:43 < downystreet> I should have known that putting my faith in the Lose Money Network was a no win situation 11:43 < downystreet> I said, I'm going to give the Lose Money Network one more try. I know I've already lost alot of money 11:43 < downystreet> I know that when I close these channels out I seem to be losing alot of money 11:44 < downystreet> But I'm going to give the lose money network one more shot because its been a while 11:44 < downystreet> And what happens when I put my trust in the Lose Money Network again? I lose money 11:44 < downystreet> 77% of $300 11:45 < downystreet> You assholes probably want me to put in another $1000 dollars so you can take 77% of that too 11:45 < downystreet> Let me just put another $1000 into this shit network so that when I close out my channels it takes $770 11:45 < downystreet> sounds like a great idea 11:46 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@2600:1700:dc40:3dd0:707f:11cd:7c15:b956] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lnd 12:23 < downystreet> Let me just put another $1000 into this shit network and open up 20 channels again and it still can't route multiple payments to the same node 12:23 < downystreet> So I can lose 77% of it 12:23 < downystreet> when I close out the channels 12:23 < downystreet> sounds like a great fucking idea 12:25 < downystreet> hello? is anybody hoe? 12:25 < downystreet> home 12:26 < downystreet> I just lost 77% of my money when I closed out all of my channels 12:26 < downystreet> Hello? 12:27 < downystreet> Any of you stupid assholes home? 12:27 < downystreet> I need some help here 13:01 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:02 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lnd 13:39 -!- Sentineo [~Undefined@unaffiliated/sentineo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:41 -!- jchia_ [~jchia@58.32.35.104] has joined #lnd 13:41 <@roasbeef> downystreet: have all the closing transactions confirmed? also you can set the fee rate you use for co-op close transactions on the command line 13:43 < downystreet> what is the command to confirm closed transactions? what is the command for co-op close trasnactions? 13:44 <@roasbeef> the one you just ran called "closeallchannels" 13:44 <@roasbeef> i'll assume you know what a confirmation is 13:44 < downystreet> all of my channels are closed 13:44 < downystreet> there are no pendingchannels 13:44 < downystreet> and i got back 23% of my initial deposit 13:45 <@roasbeef> check the fee paid on those transactions to actually verify if the money was spent on fees or not 13:45 < downystreet> you're going to have to give me the commands 13:45 <@roasbeef> you can either use something liek getrawtransaction (bitcoind) or look up the txids in an explorer 13:46 <@roasbeef> lncli closedchannels will give you the info on the closing transactions 13:47 < downystreet> what is the settled balance? 13:47 <@roasbeef> the balance you gained from teh cahnnel close, so the amount of coins that were on your side of the channle before it was closed 13:48 <@roasbeef> you want to look at 'closing_tx_hash" 13:48 <@roasbeef> for the channels you closed 13:48 <@roasbeef> they should be sorted by close height 13:48 < downystreet> here is one https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/9ee6f8f24c4f7f06b0e9a742fa7b73f94db6d9a1d6a664e25159bf15bcef1cff 13:49 <@roasbeef> also re the amount you put into the channels, the amount you exit with (when closing) will be lower if you actually sent money anywhere using those channels 13:49 < downystreet> yes i sent money 13:49 < downystreet> i basically had no local balance 13:49 < downystreet> after sending several transactions 13:50 < downystreet> and couldnt route payments through the network anymore which is why i closed the channels 13:50 <@roasbeef> if you had no local balance, then you won't gain the amount that you put in when you closed the channels 13:50 <@roasbeef> the amount you should expect is the amount in the channels at the time of the close 13:50 < downystreet> so i would basically have to wait for the local balance to refil? 13:50 < downystreet> that might take a year 13:51 <@roasbeef> "settled_balance" is the amount that was on your side when teh channels closed 13:51 <@roasbeef> so I don't think you lost any coins, aside from what you paid on chain fees, and the amount that you spent before closing out the channels 13:51 < downystreet> 214b3fd", "capacity": "100000", "close_height": 635590, "settled_balance": "23546", "time_locked_balance": "0", "close_type": "COOPERATIVE_CLOSE", "open_initiator": "INITIATOR_LOCAL", "close_initiator": "INITIATOR_LOCAL" 13:51 < downystreet> so basically i put in 100000 and got back 23546 13:51 <@roasbeef> the money didn't just dissapear, you spent it 13:52 <@roasbeef> either on stuff or fees when you closed out the channel 13:52 <@roasbeef> you can look at listpayments to see which channels were used when you spent nthe coins 13:54 < downystreet> ok so when i make a payment, it sends that to the remote balance and basically thats locked in until i close the channel or whoever i was sending money to routes a payment back through my channel? 13:55 <@roasbeef> when you send money, you basically "push" those funds all the way to the receiver 13:55 <@roasbeef> as a result, the funds have left you chanenls, and the receiver's channel has been credited 13:55 <@roasbeef> the payment is cleared+settled at that point 13:55 <@roasbeef> when you close out, w/e coins you didn't spend are delivered to you on-chain 13:56 < downystreet> what about the nodes in between me and the receiver does it affect their channel balance? 13:56 <@roasbeef> yes the intermediate nodes gained a few, and modified the _distribution_ of the funds in their channels 13:56 <@roasbeef> gained a fee* 13:57 <@roasbeef> it's like a series of money tubes, and the money behaves like water 13:57 < downystreet> so the fees are deposited into their channel balance? 13:58 <@roasbeef> yeh, they make money by helping route payments 13:58 < downystreet> and also, since you have explained this, it seems like a routing node would not want to be sending alot of payments out in order to keep some sort of a local balance. is this correct? 14:00 <@roasbeef> so when they route a payment, they trade local balance in one channel for remote balance in another channel 14:00 <@roasbeef> they still have that local balnace, it's just now in a different "place" 14:03 < downystreet> but lets say that a node has routed some payments and has also sent some payments and lets say it has a remote balance of 100 sat and a local balance of 1 sat. if someone wants to send a payment of 50 sats through this node, is the node able to do that if it is connected to the destination node and has a remote balance of 100 sat and a local 14:03 < downystreet> balance of 1 sat to that node? 14:03 <@roasbeef> oh if they're just sending? if they're just sending, and end up in a position where they can't receive over any of their channels, then they may not be able to route payments until they fix their channel distribution 14:03 <@roasbeef> someone can route that 1 sat thru that node, but then split their payments eslewhere in teh network to complete their payment 14:04 < downystreet> so a routing node needs to have balance channels then to be effective 14:04 <@roasbeef> the key insight here is that this node "sent" money to a "sink" in the system, basically out of the system in a sense, they can inject more coins into their channels (top them off) to restore things 14:05 <@roasbeef> less so now that clients are able to split their payments, they dn't need to depend on a single path thru the network being able to reach the destination 14:06 <@roasbeef> there's a diff between the relative balance distribution across a node's channels, and their total inbound/outbound bandwidth distribution 14:07 <@roasbeef> another factor is the directional skew of the payments they're routing, if all coins are going in one direction (to some popuilar app), then things can become skewed, until either there's flows in the other direction, or the routing node inserts its own flow to correct things 14:07 < downystreet> yes that is what happened to me 14:07 <@roasbeef> in the ideal world, LN is a closed ecosystem, so funds just flow around (ppl receiving salries, getting paid, etc) 14:08 < downystreet> so what are the future plans for the lightning network? 14:08 < downystreet> if im trying to send multiple payments to one node 14:09 < downystreet> and the system is getting skewed, how do you fix this? 14:10 < downystreet> you would almost need some kind of node that can analyze this and send out a payment to rebalance the system 14:10 <@roasbeef> well that's a matter of the monetary flows of the network 14:10 <@roasbeef> if you're the only one sending payments (thought experiment) then the flow will never be reversed 14:10 <@roasbeef> other payments can resolve that flow, or nodes can manually corret things (manual being some program here) 14:11 <@roasbeef> there's something called Lightning Loop that can help correct this as well, the nodes that're receiving all the payments can use this to receive those coins on chain in batched manner, this frees them up to recv more 14:11 <@roasbeef> in the opposite direction, those sending a lot can inject more coins into their channels, allowing them to send more (kinda like a prepaid debit card) 14:13 < downystreet> this seems like alot of work just to make some payments 14:14 < downystreet> i mean i could do all that and download stuff and set it up or i could just use the main bitcoin network and wait an hour or two to receive funds 14:14 <@roasbeef> heh much of it is automated, and will become increasingly so 14:15 <@roasbeef> tradeoffs at the end of the day, raw on-chain is better at certain types of payments than off-chain 14:15 <@roasbeef> that example you outlined above of someone sending 1 sat can't really happen on-chain 14:15 <@roasbeef> but there're other dynamics on-chain similar to the ideal system equilirbium I described above 14:15 < downystreet> i was using the c-otto rebalancer 14:16 <@roasbeef> but these systems can do things that no other systems can, which is why they exist, we use them, and continue to improve them 14:16 < downystreet> and sending 5 sats at a time 14:16 <@roasbeef> the rebalnacer doesn't address you problem of wanting to send more out 14:16 <@roasbeef> it chagnes the distribution of your local channel balance 14:17 <@roasbeef> but may not necessarily let you send more out 14:17 < downystreet> so its only changing the distribution if you still have funds in the local balance of the channel 14:17 <@roasbeef> it can help to better align your channels to make them better for _routing_ though 14:17 < downystreet> ok, its starting to make more sense to me now 14:17 < downystreet> basically your funds are in the channel 14:17 <@roasbeef> nice, great to here 14:18 <@roasbeef> btw i'm gonna close that issue you made since I think we've resolved thigns here 14:18 <@roasbeef> hear* 14:18 <@roasbeef> kek 14:18 < downystreet> what about wallet funds? 14:18 < downystreet> what im understanding is that the usable funds are locked in the channel 14:18 < downystreet> and you're not actually using your wallet balance to make payments 14:19 <@roasbeef> you sent the money somewhere, you didn't lose the money 14:19 <@roasbeef> you are using your wallet balnace 14:19 <@roasbeef> your "channel balance" 14:19 < downystreet> so i just did something 14:19 < downystreet> i was trying to purchase a giftcard and my walletbalance is greater than the amount of the purchase 14:20 < downystreet> but it said insufficient funds 14:20 < downystreet> but i had just previously purchased another giftcard through the same channel 14:20 < downystreet> so why is my wallet balance not changing when I send funds? 14:20 <@roasbeef> you should look at "lncli channelbalance" 14:21 <@roasbeef> that's the amount of your off-chain funds, which is what you use to send coins 14:22 < downystreet> so if i've spent money, wallet balance is irrelevant then? 14:22 < downystreet> i just need to be looking at channel balance 14:23 < downystreet> wait a second let me try something 14:23 <@roasbeef> wallet balance is your on-chain coins 14:23 <@roasbeef> the coins that aren't in channels 14:24 < downystreet> im getting confused 14:24 < downystreet> when i pay for an invoice my wallet balance is not changing 14:24 < downystreet> and im paying on chain 14:24 <@roasbeef> yes, since you didn't use the coins not in channels to make that payment 14:24 <@roasbeef> when you pay an invoice, your channel balance will change 14:24 <@roasbeef> since you used channels to pay 14:25 < downystreet> ok i see 14:25 < downystreet> man this is super complicated 14:25 <@roasbeef> just think of it as two buckets of money 14:25 <@roasbeef> slow (on-chain) and fast (off-chain) 14:26 <@roasbeef> you can move money between those buckets dependign on what you want to do, or what typ eof payment you want to make 14:26 <@roasbeef> you can even use one bucket to pay a payment to someone else that wants them in th eopposite bucket 14:26 <@roasbeef> the only way you send coins on-chain using lnd (and somethign else) is the lncli sendcoins command which'll use walletbalance 14:27 <@roasbeef> everything else will use channelbalance 14:27 < downystreet> ok 14:29 -!- downystreet [54112d64@84.17.45.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lnd 16:37 -!- yzernik_ [~yzernik@2600:1700:dc40:3dd0:707f:11cd:7c15:b956] has joined #lnd 16:38 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:56 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lnd 16:57 -!- yzernik_ [~yzernik@2600:1700:dc40:3dd0:707f:11cd:7c15:b956] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37 -!- nixbitcoin [~nixbitcoi@gateway/tor-sasl/nixbitcoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37 -!- nixbitcoin [~nixbitcoi@gateway/tor-sasl/nixbitcoin] has joined #lnd 17:43 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd 17:47 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:49 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:50 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd 17:54 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd 19:25 -!- davterra [~dulyNoded@89.45.90.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lnd 20:08 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:10 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 20:12 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #lnd 21:00 -!- afk11` [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- afk11` [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has joined #lnd 21:31 -!- davterra [~dulyNoded@89.45.90.160] has joined #lnd 22:12 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@88.99.167.175] has joined #lnd 22:27 -!- davterra [~dulyNoded@89.45.90.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53 -!- treyzania_ is now known as treyzania