--- Log opened Tue Dec 01 00:00:32 2020
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02:30 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth merged pull request #4806: Fix Onion v2 support for Neutrino backends (master...neutrino-tor-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4806
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02:31 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/94f83116670f...42d7fcd2f9d4
02:31 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 6f3c861 Oliver Gugger: tor: convert onion v2 addrs into fake tcp6
02:31 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 76d2c49 Oliver Gugger: lnd: fix Onion v2 support for Neutrino backends
02:31 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 42d7fcd Johan T. Halseth: Merge pull request #4806 from guggero/neutrino-tor-fix
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02:38 < Hash> What if facebook launched a coin
02:38 < Hash> Facecoin
02:39 < Hash> Stupid people will jump on it!
02:42 < nkuttler> libra
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02:51 < Veggen> a lot of people will buy any random $FEDcoin too. Thinking they'll somehow outcompete bitcoin anyway.
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03:14 < Emcy> ;;tlast
03:14 <@gribble> 19893.13
03:14 < Emcy> o shi
03:15 < Emcy> .price bch btc
03:15 < deb0rah> binance 0.01610900 [+3.92%] | bittrex 0.01606604 [+3.55%] | southxchange 0.01626900 [+4.67%] | livecoin 0.01594510 [+3.55%] | hitbtc 0.01612200 [+4.09%] | bleutrade 0.01611729 [+1.37%] | graviex 0.01662515 [+2.69%] | poloniex 0.01608650 [+3.77%] | kraken 0.01598000 [+3.10%] |
03:17 < gmaxwell> .price bsv btc
03:17 < deb0rah> bittrex 0.00929240 [+0.12%] | hitbtc 0.00927900 [-0.30%] | southxchange 0.00967194 [+3.03%] |
03:17 < gmaxwell> still over 0.009, surprising
03:18 < Emcy> this is 0.9% of btc
03:19 < Emcy> theyre both well into the noise floor now
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03:20 < Emcy> did the meeting thing go well last night? did it seem productive
03:23 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k4ht0w/we_need_bch_price_to_increase/
03:23 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ we need bch price to increase : btc ]
03:23 < Emcy> a utility community, not a number-go-up community...except all the times they are
03:27 < gmaxwell> Meeting went fine. I did learn that the hdmi capture device I was using has a messed up behavior where it can only get opened once, and after that it won't work untill I reboot the host.
03:28 < gmaxwell> Emcy: I'll be happy when they're under 1% combined.
03:36 < Emcy> i think both principals of the coins would have to completely give up propping up a price floor for that to happen
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04:01 < Emcy> ;;tlast
04:01 <@gribble> 19372.81
04:01 < Emcy> see told you people are thinking about 20k more than technical ATH at ~19.8k
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04:17 < gmaxwell> well ath in euro pretty much requires 20k USD
04:18 < pipirella> bitconeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
04:18 < pipirella> sorry
04:22 < Emcy> still hard to explain bitcoin to people in a way that doent sound like im MLMing them
04:22 < Emcy> even if i dont mention the gainz
04:22 < Emcy> everything else in crypto being such a scam doesnt help either
04:22 < pipirella> everyone knows what bitcoin is already?
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04:23 < Emcy> no true. maybe theyve heard the word bitcoin
04:23 < pipirella> or is there some specific part you are explaining
04:23 < pipirella> ok
04:23 < pipirella> people know it's internet money, or something which goes up and down in value a lot, or they think it's a ponzi scheme
04:24 < pipirella> it's like all those things
04:24 < pipirella> except it doesn't fit the proper definition of a ponzi
04:24 < Emcy> if you apply classical wisdom to bitcoin, it looks *exactly* like a giant ponzi. Its kinda awkward
04:24 < pipirella> yes
04:25 < pipirella> you have to look twice
04:25 < Emcy> well theres an unfortunate effect that the people who look twice at bitcoin might be the same people who would look twice at an obvious ponzi too
04:26 < queip> kek at price
04:26 < queip> 18,600 - 18,900 jumping like 5 times a second
04:27 < queip> where to get 1-second or anyway sub 1 minute graphs of bitstamp?
04:27 < Emcy> its still weird to think of hundreds of dollars as being within the margin of error/arbitrage window for trading btc
04:27 < Emcy> but here we are. weve come a long way
04:28 < Emcy> thousand dollar swings dont generate a MSM news cycle calling bitcoin dead anymore
04:28 < belcher> dont look at it in dollars look at it in %
04:28 < Emcy> yes
04:30 < Emcy> queip theres another really unfortunate effect too, that once you successfully explain why bitcoin isnt a scam or giant ponzi, people might then look at other shitcoins and think 'well then theyre legit too, and i can get in on the ground floor with these!'
04:30 < Emcy> i think thats more than has of bcashes gambit actually
04:30 < Emcy> half*
04:31 < Emcy> its hard to explain why bitcoin is legit, and nearly any other given coin is not
04:31 < gmaxwell> the forkcoin gambit is substantially targeting "market cap weighed investing"
04:32 < Emcy> ?
04:32 < gmaxwell> a well respected traditional investing technique is to own the stock market (or a segment from it) weighed by market cap, there are lots of reasonable arguments as to why this is prudent...  in particular: it's the unique weighing that is preserved as prices change with no trading.
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04:33 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth merged pull request #4810: multi: add new config option to toggle gossip rate limiting  (master...gossip-throttle-config) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4810
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04:33 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/42d7fcd2f9d4...8ec4697fe3ef
04:33 < lnd-bot> lnd/master b1fbbcf Olaoluwa Osuntokun: lncfg: add new legacy protocol option to turn off gossip throttling
04:33 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 13a2598 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: discovery: add new option to toggle gossip rate limiting
04:33 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 447c9f2 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: lntest: always turn off gossip throttling for nodes created in itests
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04:33 < gmaxwell> So people with that mindset come to cryptocurrency and then invest in the top ten things weighed by marketcap
04:33 < Emcy> oh yeah diversification
04:33 < gmaxwell> And the forkcoins have VASTLY inflated marketcaps because of all the forgotten/abandoned coins that are probably never going to move.
04:34 < Emcy> yes, its also hard to explain why diversifying is actually the opposite of good received wisdom in crypto
04:34 < gmaxwell> (similar situation for premines, but the most offensive premines get gimped in 'market cap' sites)
04:34 < Emcy> i tried tell people that 'bitcoin isnt an investment vehicle' but i got laughs for that one
04:34 < gmaxwell> Diversifying is fine, but investing in other cryptocurrencies isn't diverse, investing in non-cryptocurrency things is...
04:35 < Emcy> yes thats the hard part
04:35 < gmaxwell> There has been pretty much no case where bitcoin prices drop where all the other cryptocurrency prices don't also drop, usually more significantly.
04:36 < queip> yeah so many people say "oh no Bitcoin is so expensive! what about the cheap alts?" Emcy
04:36 < queip> and they do know btc can be bought in fractions
04:36 < Emcy> actually many many people dont know that
04:36 < queip> that too
04:36 < pipirella> well
04:37 < Emcy> 'a bitcoin' doesnt even actually exist in the system itself at all, its all satoshis
04:37 < Emcy> its just where a decimal point was plonked into the GUI
04:37 < pipirella> people who dunno you cannot buy "a fraction" are not in the market of buying an altcoin
04:37 < pipirella> you can buy*
04:38 < Emcy> i think that one day talking about whole bitcoins will be almost completely irrelevant for vastly most people
04:38 < pipirella> and there are so many ways to buy bitcoin now, paypal, cashapp, stock brokers, futures market
04:39 < pipirella> and the people who "cannot buy fractions" are just in it for the number go up ride
04:39 < gmaxwell> unfortunatly the damn exchanges basically shovel altcoins onto people.
04:39 < Emcy> im disturbed by paypals involvemnt
04:40 < pipirella> so there is no point in the recurring PSA you can buy a fraction of a bitcoin
04:40 < Emcy> and this recent effort to otherise holding your keys by calling it 'self-custody' as a rhetorical trick
04:40 < pipirella> gmaxwell: that's what they do, it is even in the name, cryptocurrency exchange
04:41 < gmaxwell> pipirella: the point of the PSA for fractions is people that never even attempt to purchase because they think it's just not for them--- only very rich people stuff.
04:42 < pipirella> that's true
04:42 < queip> 1 BTC is like a goldbar
04:42 < pipirella> didn't think about that aspect
05:03 < belcher> hence the meme "stacking sats"
05:04 < belcher> fun fact: joinmarket had a default minimum coinjoin set back in 2015, the idea being surely nobody will want to make a coinjoin smaller than this, recently we realized that this minimum is actually too high and should be lowered.... see how deflation has its way to making fools of you :p
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05:14 < belcher> its only a default though, so individual makers can reduce it themselves (and presumably earn more money doing so if theres demand)
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06:37 < Veggen> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k4ife2/hathormm_on_a_volunturismdev_way_to_attack_bch/ - BCHers complaining that miners doesn't bother to include transactions :)
06:37 < Entitlement> Veggen - [ HathorMM on a 'volunturism.dev' way to attack BCH chain : btc ]
06:38 < Veggen> maybe, I dunno..if there was an incentive to include it? A transaction fee?
06:38 < gmaxwell> impossible!
06:39 < gmaxwell> > The only solution to this is to have so many transactions that it becomes unprofitable to mine empty blocks.
06:40 < gmaxwell> ^ they expect miners to lose money on each transaction but make it up in volume.
06:41 < gmaxwell> if it doesn't make sense for the miner to include one txn at fee x, it probably doesn't make any more sense to include 1000 of them at that fee.
06:43 < Emcy> at least theyve been consistent on that point, making it up in volume
06:43 < Emcy> they just dont acknowledge that its a fast track to AWS only nodes
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06:44 < queip> gmaxwell: yeah volume COULD make it up in general, why not
06:44 < Emcy> most other tentpole positions from the early days have since fallen, even the big one: >32mb blocks
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06:45 < Emcy> queip because enjoy your GB blocks
06:45 < gmaxwell> queip: because the reason to not include txn is that they don't pay for their orphaning risks.
06:46 < gmaxwell> queip: and the risk per byte actually increases somewhat with larger sizes.
06:48 < Emcy> o interesting
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06:49 < Emcy> i never considered a txn could have a value to a miner of less than zero
06:49 < Emcy> very intereting
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06:51 < gmaxwell> yeah, a while back in bitcoin we estimated it and the break even was around the existing minfee. (like within a factor of 10).
06:51 < Emcy> wait actually this seems like something i used to know but then forgot. Of course in the early bitcoin days when orphans were much much more common [before the optimisations], miners used to mine empty blocks all the time, even deepbit and then bitmain used to iirc
06:51 < gmaxwell> the exact amount depends on what txn are already in the block.
06:51 < gmaxwell> well bitmain was probably doing so because of covert asicboost.
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06:57 < queip> Emcy: I know why big blocks are bad, Im just saying for people who do not care about decentralization of blockchain it could work out to get many small fees insteaad
06:57 < gmaxwell> the discussion here isn't anything about decenteralization or the general issues with big blogs.
06:58 < queip> gmaxwell: the real goal is to have certain fee per bytes per second, is that more or less linear?
06:58 < buZz> centralized blockchain is just 'excel sheet on my uncle's computer'
06:58 < gmaxwell> Zero fee transactions actually have negative value to miners.
06:58 < queip> e.g. doing x10 slower blocks, still would only allow around x10 bigger size of each block for same risks of orphaning, not say x20 bigger?
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06:59 < gmaxwell> queip: slower blocks would allow more aggregate capacity, because the orphaning risk isn't linear there is a constant term from the speed of light.
07:00 < queip> so that if blockchain was targeted for 1 block per hour, not 10, it might work "as good" with x20 block size?
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07:12 < Emcy> reasonably then youd expect bcashers to have talked about making blocktimes slower
07:13 < Emcy> i think theyve only talked about making it faster though
07:13 < Emcy> because they think a confirm has a constant security value i think
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07:14 < gmaxwell> they're probably slow enough already that it wouldn't be improved by going slower, certantly at current loads.
07:15 < queip> btw they seem to plan or at least want to have, even longer chains of 0confs
07:16 < Emcy> yeah i dont know why they dont increase the unconfimred chain limit forthwith now tht they made deadalnix walk the plank
07:17 < Emcy> ;;tlast
07:17 <@gribble> 19290.25
07:19 < gmaxwell> Emcy: because it's there for a reason... if they get rid of CPFP though then there isn't a need for it.
07:25 < Emcy> well amaury knew that, but they kicked him out now so
07:26 < Emcy> they should just do all the things they always wanted to do, with no moderating influence to stop them
07:26 < Emcy> so say i
07:26 < gmaxwell> I dunno why they didn't remove CPFP, they were under some delusion that they were going to have significant amounts of txn sometime soon.
07:26 < gmaxwell> it serves no purpose if every block clears the mempool.
07:26 < gmaxwell> and it's pretty complicated and takes a fair amount of cpu time.
07:28 < Emcy> like i said lets encourage them to follow their dreams
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07:29 < gmaxwell> well amusingly correcting them just seems to make them more commited to their errors.
07:30 < gmaxwell> they're convinced that bitcoiners are afraid of them which is just illogical, and so they think anything we encourage them to do is just to trip them up.
07:36 < queip> wait, CPFP needs to be "enabled"?
07:37 < queip> this is a consensus rule...?
07:37 < queip> I though it is totally normal transaction, just miner logic to calculate how much they can earn on 2+ txes chained, and wallet logic to figure out how to calculate fee
07:39 < queip> oh you mean hwy they dont disable it in clients and on miners(template/node)
07:40 < gmaxwell> yes.
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08:17 < queip> they so mad at andreas androsomething rn
08:17 < gmaxwell> they get really mad any time a bitcoiner mentions paying for stuff with a credit card.
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08:18 < gmaxwell> Because their idea of how bcash should be used is like dw1 -- no-coiner or nearly-no-coiner buys some bch then uses it to buy some item and the seller exchanges it back to fiat.
08:18 < gmaxwell> thats why they're constantly hyping that the price doesn't matter.
08:18 < gmaxwell> As in that model it doesn't matter too much.
08:19 < gmaxwell> But if that is how you expect people to use it -- a credit card or paypal is strictly superior for the vast majority of transactions people would make like that.
08:22 < queip> except for privacy/unmconfiscability
08:27 < grubles> well, roger does say bch will 1000x or something ludicrous
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08:30 < gmaxwell> queip: thats why I said vast majority-- but not even, the exchange on both sides of that is a major privacy/confiscability hit.
08:34 < Emcy> i want to see bitcoin used for petty payments, where possible
08:36 < queip> I used LN quite a lot, and besides doing bigger payments, or while I had channels almost empty, it almost often worked very well
08:36 < queip> still, ironing it out seems slow, but I can live with that
08:36 < queip> *almost always
08:37 < Emcy> LN is dev/rollout somewhat slower than i hoped
08:38 < ricks_> buying things off amazon with bitcoin is nice. does that fall under the illegal category for the uk next year? you're paying someone with bitcoin so they would use usd...
08:38 < queip> ricks_: illegal?
08:39 < AndyS2> queip: what do you pay via LN atm? Is there something a normal person needs that's not overprized in a shop that is LN-enabled?
08:40 < queip> AndyS2: me and/or friends buy with LN: steam (so - games), amazon/amazon.de (various things), servers, domains, VPN
08:40 < Emcy> ricks_ whats illegal about it?
08:40 < AndyS2> queip: oh, what do you use for amazon and steam? does that work directly?
08:41 < queip> AndyS2: for example bitrefill is selling steam (EU/USA/others) and amazon (and amazon.de) prepaid cards/wallets what ever they are called
08:42 < ricks_> queip: UK regulators want to ban transactions involving items priced in bitcoin. im assuming it's more than just derivatives
08:42 < queip> direct integration into amazon/steam is not done now, but going the route with buying wallet codes is basically the same, besides being happy re bitcoin mentioned on their sites
08:42 < Emcy> wat. why
08:42 < ricks_> or bitcoin stocks, however they're called
08:42 < queip> ricks_: "priced in"?  what if the price is in USD/GBP? do they want to avoid any spending of btc?
08:43 < ricks_> they say it's to protect investors from volatility, to me it looks like theyre closing down avenues for non-institutional investors
08:43 < AndyS2> queip: hm, seems like I'd pay 2% for the benefit of having to deal with gift cards :(
08:44 < queip> oh look another freedom removed for citizen's protection, thanks gubirment
08:44 < queip> AndyS2: could be. but with bitcoin price jumping +-10% daily anyway, who cares :) certainly not btc holders
08:44 < Emcy> ricks_ have you got some kind of news article about this?
08:46 < ricks_> Emcy: https://news.bitcoin.com/uk-bans-sale-of-crypto-derivatives-to-retail-investors-says-move-to-save-69-million-in-losses/
08:46 < AndyS2> queip: I mean, it does help adoption to support shops that use LN. but I do care about paying 2% more, that's 2% less I could invest and I'm not rich.
08:46 < Entitlement> ricks_ - [ UK Bans Sale of Crypto Derivatives to Retail Investors from January 2021 | News ... ]
08:46 < queip> AndyS2: for people who want to save and are just mad at fees, it would indeed be better to have direct route. How ever, if you are holding some btc you can totally spend them in practice
08:46 < queip> AndyS2: i'm not rich at all, but +-2% if not any care when I will get anyway -5% or +5% more price depending do I trade now or hour later ;)
08:46 < ricks_> sorry, i misunderstood 'derivatives' in this context. i believe it will only have to do with trading, not pizza
08:47 < AndyS2> queip: I don't trade, so that problem does not apply to me
08:47 < queip> AndyS2: of course if one day full LN integration happens, e.g. in Steam again, or in Amazon, it will be nicer
08:47 < AndyS2> actually I have debt, so it's more like 2% not put into an additional downpayment ;)
08:47 < queip> overstock was also early big shop adopting btc right? I wonder how they do now, maybe they could do LN?   They are mostly in furniture I think
08:49 < ricks_> it would be interesting to see bsv live its dream and become an integral part of the banking system. i dont think any of the experimental stablecoins made by banks went anywhere
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08:49 < ricks_> how many LN merchants are out there?
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09:02 < queip> ricks_: no idea, but if you do not mind the possible extra fee of going through wallet codes, with amazon you can buy most "items" you can need, in USA, I think
09:02 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k4jnby/psa_satoshis_original_white_paper_was_titled/
09:02 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ PSA: Satoshi's original white paper was titled "Electronic Cash Without a Truste... ]
09:03 < Emcy> same guy whos hocking a new feature in his wallet of sending money without using addresses via essentially a url shortened he owns
09:04 < Emcy> >In this phrase, "Peer-to-peer" refers to the "system" and not the "cash"
09:04 < Emcy> ok arnet you the guys whove been dumping on LN for 2 years for not being p2p cash because a ln route has intermediaries
09:05 < Emcy> schizophrenic criticism
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09:11 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero opened pull request #4813: wtclient: fix session ID collisions when using two watchtower clients (anchor+legacy) (master...anchor-wtclient-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4813
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11:01 < Emcy> https://github.com/xRetry/FPS_RPM_Analysis/blob/main/PYMC3_Regression.ipynb
11:01 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ FPS_RPM_Analysis/PYMC3_Regression.ipynb at main · xRetry/FPS_RPM_Analysis · GitH... ]
11:01 < Emcy> midnight look at this stuff holy shit
11:01 < Emcy> some kid did his statistics thesis on this or something
11:02 < Emcy> i cant even begin to parse this
11:02 < Emcy> >The result of this analysis shows, the often-repeated assumptions about the negative impact of low frame rate on the rate of fire are absolutely true. This relationship is also dependent on the ideal fire rate of the weapon. Lower fire rates are less impacted than higher ones.
11:02 < Emcy> NC stronk
11:13 < Emcy> according to this data, DBG should absolutely enforce 'smoothing' across all builds of the game, and cap it at 60fps for everyone
11:13 < Emcy> theres something really weird going on with the engine when smoothing is off
11:21 < queip> I thought of one rare use case for NOT using taproot
11:22 < queip> make it visible that your key is e.g. 3-of-5
11:22 < queip> is that even possible? or is it always hash of contract. perhapse have a service to publish the scripts and find them by hash/addr
11:22 < Veggen> queip: uhm...why would you need/want that?
11:22 < queip> the reason: deterrent for robbers
11:22 < queip> to a degree
11:23 < queip> "he probably needs co signature of his brother in another country or shit... can we get on with an easier target
11:23 < queip> maybe in practice not useful after all, but just a thought
11:23 < ohmyfromage> is there anything I can do for a pending channel that is waiting to close for over 3 weeks?
11:23 < Veggen> I doubt it's really useful.
11:24 < Veggen> is there anything interesting that is shown about it in the logs?
11:25 < Veggen> sometimes, it also helps to restart the node. At least it used to :)
11:26 < Talkless> Veggen: will LND have logs for event 3 weeks ago? :P
11:26 < Veggen> mine does.
11:27 < Veggen> and if it's in waiting close, it's also possible that the node checks on it from time and time to see if the condition it's waiting on has happened?
11:30 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: honestly not even sure what to look for in the logs.
11:30 < Veggen> ohmyfromage: greping for the channel point is usually a good start.
11:31 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: thank you
11:34 < gmaxwell> queip: normal bitcoin usage doesn't work that way anyways.
11:34 < gmaxwell> You cannot tell that a p2sh address is some particular multisig or not.
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11:35 < gmaxwell> You can, however, publish your policy if you want to do so. (same with taproot and p2sh)
11:36 < gmaxwell> also dunno how convincing it is in any case, anyone can do 3 of 5 or whatever but then have all 5 keys.  Plus a gun to the head is probably pretty effective at getting actual multisigs released...
11:36 < gmaxwell> ... after all you have to be able to spend the funds if you want to, and you're REALLY gonna want to with a loaded gun to your head.
11:41 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: I saw this message: [ERR] PEER: resend failed: unable to fetch channel sync messages for peer ______________@___.___.___.___:43586: unable to find closed channel summary
11:41 < ohmyfromage> I redacted the pubkey and ip
11:44 < lndbot> <gugger> ohmyfromage: did you restore from SCB?
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11:45 < ohmyfromage> gugger: not that I am aware, I did upgrade my btcpayserver instance which is running lnd
11:45 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: I'll try rebooting the raspberry pi and see if that fixes things.
11:45 < Veggen> hm. What steps do that upgrade do, I wonder?
11:45 < lndbot> <gugger> do you know why the channels are closing? did you close them?
11:46 < ohmyfromage> gugger: yes I closed the channel before doing the upgrade.
11:47 < Veggen> is that recommended upgrade procedure for btcpayserver?
11:47 < Veggen> do you do any kind of restore as part of that upgrade process?
11:47 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: no, I think I was paranoid
11:47 < lndbot> <gugger> maybe the remote nodes weren't around for a cooperative close and now they're just sitting there. You might have to force close them
11:47 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: the upgrade process is fairly opaque. I click a button on the web interface and it basically does a docker-compose down and gets the new images
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11:49 < ohmyfromage> there is a limbo balance of ~25k sats
11:50 < Veggen> oh well. gugger is the fund-recovery expert here :)
11:50 < lndbot> <gugger> yes, because the channel resolution isn't done yet, the balance shows as limbo.
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12:00 < queip> gmaxwell: the trick is that you can NOT spend your funds yourself really, only with permission of other people who live far away preferably - and even more ideally not attached to you on personal level
12:02 < Veggen> queip: the problem is to convince the person with a gun to your head about that.
12:02 < queip> Veggen: keep plaintext of the script that matches the hash
12:02 < queip> plus a copy of understanding bitcoin ;)
12:03 < queip> publishing policy should be indeed helpful, and then just reveal that you are this and this guy and they can look up your policy on shitter or some blogging platform
12:03 < midnight> gmaxwell: I swear I remember reading somewhere where you dismantled rust due to the nutballs badly-re-implemented crypto libs it just randomly pulls in from everywhere. Was it just in IRC here, or did you do a write-up that I just can't find?
12:08 < midnight> Emcy: wow a write-up!  I love that guy. ha ha
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12:20 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: unfortunately restarting did not fix
12:21 < ohmyfromage> I'm going to work hard for these 25k sats
12:22 < Veggen> can you connect to the other node?
12:22 < Veggen> manually?
12:22 < lndbot> <gugger> can you send me the output of `lncli pendingchannels` in an email? gugger@gmail.com, PGP keys at https://keybase.io/guggero/pgp_keys.asc
12:22 < lndbot> <gugger> or PM me on Slack (I'm not in IRC)
12:22 < ohmyfromage> gugger: thank you
12:22 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: no it doesn't belong to me
12:24 < Veggen> uh, no...but I mean, can you reconnect your lnd to it, with lncli connect pubkey@ip:port of the other node?
12:24 < Veggen> probably won't help, but you'll at least get a fresh instance of the issue  in the logs :)
12:25 < ohmyfromage> Veggen: /facepalm I'll try that
12:25 < Emcy> it snot just a write up hes got scatterplots and stuff coming out of his ears
12:25 < Emcy> i knew this game was for autists but never anything like this
12:30 < ricks_> may i request a write-up on how to outsmart a bullet
12:30 < ricks_> ;-)
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12:31 < Emcy> ive yet to meet a man who can outsmart bullet
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12:46 < Emcy> https://i.imgur.com/EaszZ7p.jpeg aceribo is now well and truly buggered
12:46 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (3200 x 2132) ]
12:46 < Emcy> the pylons came down
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12:48 < gmaxwell> midnight: https://twitter.com/xkcd/status/1333529967079120896
12:49 < gmaxwell> Emcy: the government wanted to get rid of it for a long time.
12:49 < gmaxwell> Emcy: but there was some law that said if they closed it they'd have to pay to remove it and restore the forrest.
12:49 < gmaxwell> which would cost like $47 million dollars.
12:49 < gmaxwell> so they just stopped maintaining it.
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12:49 < Emcy> yeah it has to be returned to nature
12:49 < gmaxwell> I suppose I'm glad I didn't actually buy it. :P
12:49 < midnight> gmaxwell: sigh.
12:50 < Emcy> but apparently, it had some design flaw from day 1
12:50 < gmaxwell> (I'd joked about the next time they tried to close it, I'd offer them $1 for it)
12:50 < Emcy> lol
12:50 < Emcy> the first cable snapped at 60% of its design load or something like that
12:51 < Emcy> so after the first one snapped the others were gonna go for sure
12:52 < gmaxwell> Emcy: well it did alright, it was built in the middle of freeking nowhere in almost no time by the army 60 years ago.
12:52 < gmaxwell> they had reenforced the supports decades ago, IIRC they knew there were issues.
12:52 < Emcy> sure it did allright
12:53 < Emcy> but ti was still an open tourist spot for decades while technically being a death trap the whole time, it seems
12:54 < Emcy> there have been several examples of faulty civil engineering that took decades to fail
12:54 < gmaxwell> doesn't look like any tourists would have been endangered.
12:54 < gmaxwell> the closest toursts could get is that building on the right.
12:55 < gmaxwell> (you can see the glass on it)
12:57 < Emcy> hm. i was sure i saw a picture on reddit a few years ago of someone right under the edge of the dish
12:57 < Emcy> maybe that wasnt open to public though
12:57 < gmaxwell> yeah, no the public couldn't go there.
12:58 < gmaxwell> they even had tall fenses to keep you from sneaking over.
12:58 < queip> Emcy: you need additional pylons
12:58 < gmaxwell> (I tried)
12:58 < Emcy> lol
12:58 < Emcy> well thats why there were fences :p
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13:06 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #4815: wtdb+wtclient: segregate session-key-index reservations by blob-type (master...wtclient-key-segregation) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4815
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13:11 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero closed pull request #4813: wtclient: fix session ID collisions when using two watchtower clients (anchor+legacy) (master...anchor-wtclient-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4813
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13:24 < Emcy> re: xkcd tweets. still better than wolfram alpha
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13:25 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero opened pull request #4816: itest: run sub itests correctly for watchtower tests (master...anchor-itest-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4816
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13:27 < midnight> seems like a bit of a waste to let it go the way they did.
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13:27 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht closed pull request #4805: Makefile: set NUM_ITEST_TRANCHES to 1 (master...parallel-one-itest) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4805
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13:31 < Emcy> what else could they do with it
13:33 < nanotube> AndyS2: you can get a nice discount on some gift cards with fold using LN
13:37 < AndyS2> nanotube: that looks nice. I can't use .com, but maybe I'll use amazon.com again someday :)
13:37 < AndyS2> even without the 4% it's cheaper than buying the giftcard with $$$
13:39 < nanotube> yea hopefully they'll have more international stuff loon
13:39 < nanotube> soon
13:45 < midnight> Emcy: plan a replacement; engineer a repair. It provided critical scientific data and as far as I know there are no other sizeable active-radar observatories :-/
13:46 < queip> what political/economical factors made it bankrupt and unable to maintain? is it covid and all?
13:47 < midnight> it was an engineering failure which when finally discovered, was too expensive/difficult to fix.
13:48 < midnight> the support cabling was overestimated in terms of strength
13:57 < ossifrage> Hay, hay, I know how to make slack suck less.... sell it to Salesforce
14:04 < Emcy> midnight the loss of the active radar capability is a serious shame
14:05 < Emcy> actually now that the pickup has come down, it would be easier to repair than before
14:05 < Emcy> the dish isnt a big deal
14:06 < Emcy> but they dont have money and also the PR government is famously corrupt and bad with funds
14:06 < Emcy> i think the us fedgov should just save it with some chump change left over from some defence bill or whatever
14:06 < Emcy> but it wont happen
14:16 < midnight> Emcy: the sealand IT guy thinks PR is a good place to move to to avoid taxes.
14:18 < midnight> oh, dammit, he deleted the tweets where he asserted it was so to me.
14:19 < midnight> wowww..  why'd he do that?
14:22 < midnight> what the hell man, he just deletes all his old tweets or something
14:23 < midnight> Ryan Lackey now only has 431 tweets in his account.
14:25 < Emcy> everyone should delete all their old tweets
14:25 < midnight> jesus he deleted tens of thousands of them
14:25 < Emcy> https://i.redd.it/u1gkiwsq9l261.jpg starting to understand this kill-all-the-landlords i keep hearing about
14:25 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (720 x 960) ]
14:26 < Emcy> thought there is 99% probability this is fake and printed out by a karma farmer
14:27 < gmaxwell> there are a lot of shitbag landlords out there.
14:27 < pipirella> yup
14:27 < ossifrage> Some of the radar images it generated of rotation near earth objects was pretty insane.
14:27 < midnight> Also we don't know the story even if it is real.
14:28 < midnight> There are some seriously shitty tenants.
14:28 < gmaxwell> the problem is that being a landlord is actually a kind of shitty business, -- but if you ingnore all the costs and only imagine rent vs mortgage it sounds amazing so it brings in greedy mofos who then are constantly in a rage because it takes actual work and doesn't pay that well.
14:28 < gmaxwell> and indeed, there are a lot of really shitty tenants-- thats part of why being a landlord sucks
14:28 < gmaxwell> if you go into being a landlord with realistic expectations you probably won't be a shitty one, but ... you'll probably also decide you don't want to be one at all.
14:29 < pipirella> I actually had a dispute over a cleaning fee, which I thought was too high
14:29 < Emcy> my cousin has some really shitty tenants who fucked up the place
14:29 < Emcy> he almost gave up and sold up
14:29 < midnight> he deleted everything but the last six days of his tweets. i wonder why.
14:30 < pipirella> I ended up not having to pay, because they were too afraid to go to court, I showed no signs of backing down
14:30 < gmaxwell> looks real to me: http://wsarc.us/bylaws.pdf
14:30 < Emcy> wow
14:30 < gmaxwell> pipirella: yeah I got nailed on a cleaning fee once, even though I had the place professionally cleaned.
14:30 < pipirella> same here
14:31 < Emcy> shoulda shit on the carpet since youre paying for it anyway
14:31 < midnight> an old landlord came to chat with me about something or other at one point, and when he went, he slammed the door. Off the wall came a clock, the clock smashed. I called after him. He ignored me. I cleaned it up and thought nothing of it because it was a garbage wall clock. End of the year comes, and buddy decides to steal most of my damage deposit. For the clock. That he broke.
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14:32 < Emcy> yeah the 'deposit' is a total joke
14:33 < Emcy> all you can do is take meticulously lit photos of everything when you move in and when you move out, and then be prepared to take it to court
14:33 < queip> gmaxwell: sue them
14:33 < queip> for fun
14:33 < Emcy> but often they even structure it so you have less incentive to go to court than he does so
14:33 < gmaxwell> pipirella: same place also charged me a penalty because my professional cleaners left a bag of trash next to the dumpster. Which was completely full the entire week I left, and had been habilually full for months with no response from the landlord.
14:33 < gmaxwell> queip: wasn't worth worrying about it.
14:34 < gmaxwell> I think in general landlord/tenant relationships will never be particularly great on average.
14:35 < ossifrage> My first few landloards where kinda shitty. The first one decided to sell the place half way though my lease
14:35 < pipirella> the guy inspecting the flat told me I was OK and the place was clean as long as I fix a couple of things, I fixed those things myself and then the next tennants found dirt up in the kitchen vent, where you couldn't even see, and they probably negotiated a rent-free month, and the landlord hit me with a bunch of stuff the inspection guy hadn't mentioned, so I had a pretty good case
14:35 < queip> I do not know why, but this kind of problems are not very popular in Poland
14:35 < queip> though it happens that someone moves in with intention to never pay, and he never pays
14:36 < queip> you know how long it takes to kick them out?
14:36 < ossifrage> so I got the joy of having 6 months of randos entering my place and real estate agents leaving the door unlocked
14:36 < queip> years.  thanks government
14:36 < Emcy> i guess generally try not to rent from a BTL self styled kingpin
14:36 < midnight> Emcy: a friend of mine, totally unbeknownst to her (and her boyfriend, whose place it is) accidentally rented to a welfare recipient, and welfare recipients have special rules which prevent them from being evicted except under extreme circumstances. Buddy proceeds to tear out walls and do "electrical work"; buddy tries to "fix the dishwasher" which floods; buddy decides to do cleaning-- which
14:36 < midnight> destroys all their flooring. So with dangerous electrical wiring which doesn't pass inspection, destroyed walls, destroyed floors, one room filled to the top with hoarded junk, and facing the house being condemned, my friend *still* can't evict buddy.
14:36 < pipirella> midnight: my god
14:36 < queip> oh yeah this kind of stuff, but everyone has it. no one can be evicted in PL lol (if they have no other place)
14:36 < ossifrage> So for the second place I explicitly asked if they where planning on selling, and the guy said "no, absolutely not, this is an investment property", six months later his wife told me they where putting it on the market
14:37 < pipirella> midnight: buddy was a handyman ;)
14:37 < ossifrage> I complained and said that her husband said the was absolutely not doing to sell, and I wouldn't have rented it if I knew they where going to sell
14:38 < midnight> pipirella: yeah! ikr.
14:38 < Emcy> midnight yeah nearly all private lets here are 'no DSS'
14:38 < Emcy> which of course concentrates low income people into sink estates
14:38 < gmaxwell> at the end of the day renting out a living space is just too intimate a relationship.  For every shitty landlord story there is a matching shitty tenant and vice versa.
14:38 < Emcy> which generate so many externality costs its not even funny
14:38 < midnight> Emcy: I think it's illegal to refuse to rent on the basis of being poor, but obviously they do for "other" reasons.
14:38 < Emcy> and also makes sure they stay low income forever
14:38 < midnight> gmaxwell: yeah man. :(
14:39 < queip> gmaxwell: I do not understand how landlord can be shitty - make a contract, document things, something goes wrong - sue
14:39 < midnight> I *suspect* that the landlord assholery is somehow worse, but since there're more tenants than landlords I'm assuming it's just a numbers game
14:39 < Emcy> its basically the same as 'no irish'
14:39 < gmaxwell> queip: suing people that are broke doesn't accomplish anything.
14:39 < queip> gmaxwell: landlords are broke?
14:39 < gmaxwell> queip: in the US, often not far from it!
14:40 < midnight> same for canada. they need the money. they rent a spare bedroom.
14:40 < gmaxwell> queip: typical private landlord in the US buys space with a loan and intends to live off the cashflow.
14:40 < ossifrage> My last landlord was really rather nice. Let me leave my furniture in the house while I was moving/closing on a house while they did some work on the place
14:40  * midnight shudders
14:40 < queip> gmaxwell: welll then in the worst case take his property, give your share to you, and remaining ~95% to him as "cash"
14:40 < midnight> Aside from that one guy who took my damage deposit -- and actually I really liked him and wished I kept in contact with him, I've had nothing but a string of awesome landlords.
14:40 < gmaxwell> queip: the property isn't his, its mostly the banks.
14:41 < queip> gmaxwell: eh that could be worse. maybe people need to use escrows more
14:41 < gmaxwell> queip: and the way landlords are shitty aren't always ways that suing could really fix.  Like intruding on your home at all hours,  grilling you about guests,  imposing crazy rules out of the blue and threatning to evict.
14:42 < gmaxwell> these things disrupt your life but don't necessarily result in any kind of objective damage you could sue over.
14:42 < queip> ffor such behaviour I guess it would come down to write all down in contract (possibly pay a bit more then)?
14:42 < queip> like Sheldon's contract but shorter
14:43 < gmaxwell> Even if you did somehow capture that, they just deny doing it and it's he said she said. (that kind of stuff I described is generally illegal in most (all?) states ... but good luck proving it)
14:43 < queip> in era of mobile"phones"?
14:44 < gmaxwell> yeah, if you manage to record it.
14:44 < Emcy> landlords cant walk in on you here
14:45 < Emcy> exceptions are emergency maintenance
14:45 < gmaxwell> Emcy: they can't legally here, they have to give notice (72 hours, I think) and make reasonable accomidation.-- doesn't stop it from happening.
14:45 < gmaxwell> *unless there is an emergency like a pipe burst.
14:46 < Emcy> cant imagine having an intrusive landlord like that
14:46 < gmaxwell> queip: and in general, except for cases where there will be huge payouts, you have to basically be rich to sue in the US, and if the tenant was rich they probably wouldn't be renting.
14:46 < midnight> at least .. mm..  48 hours advance notice I think required here? maybe 72. we tend to follow the americans with these kinds of things, as there's more americans than us and they often make rules for stuff we haven't encountered yet
14:46 < Emcy> takes the 'lord' part too seriously...
14:46 < ossifrage> The 72 hour notice didn't seem to apply to real estate agents
14:46 < queip> gmaxwell: I see. Well here it is like 10% of the sum you seek + around 1000$ for a small trial
14:47 < queip> unless it is a trivial case and < 5000$ worth of value that you seek, then just 10% + 100$ covers it all and e-court tries to solve it. for trivial stuff like you have documents someone owes you but he doesn't pay up
14:47 < gmaxwell> I've personally not had that many problems, but I know plenty of people who have.  I also know plenty of people who are landlords and have had tenants do crazy shit.
14:48 < queip> 10,000$ for large trial.  who pays this costs is up to court, but often the losing side
14:48 < gmaxwell> like midnight's example with the tenant that was tearing down walls.
14:48 < gmaxwell> queip: sounds a lot more functional than the US.
14:48 < midnight> :-)
14:48 < queip> gmaxwell: well for smaaal trial, bigger ones could go to 10,000$.  and, often even quite simple trial can take years, that is 0.5 - 1 year waiting even for 1st hearing
14:49 < midnight> ouch
14:49 < queip> well probably 0.3 - 1 year.   now it gets worse with virus
14:50 < Emcy> the only reason anyone sues anyone else for injuries under like 10k or so is on principle anyway
14:50 < queip> overall law is often not respected, you can spend 10 years being stalked by psychopaths unless anyone does some real restraining order
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14:50 < queip> or gubirment can steal your tax, and after years you win the case, and even then they do not pay up because fu
14:51 < Emcy> thought i have to say that here we have the small claims court for injuries under £500 which works well mostly because the defendent almost never shows up
14:51 < queip> PL is one of most anti-business, "everyone doing a business is probably a thief
14:51 < queip> " post-soviet nation in the world
14:52 < queip> Emcy: at least UK has that one thing going well, treating people running companies as someone they are there to serve and help
14:52 < Emcy> yeah not always
14:53 < Emcy> if hmrc dont like you they will vivisect you
14:53 < queip> also during covid our gubi added around 10 new taxes, and reduced or removed 0 :)
14:56 < queip> suggar tax, coffee tax, small alcohol bottle tax, commanded-LTD +19% tax, rain tax, real estate tax increase,  dog tax,  (no cat tax? seem real lost opportunity. our president has a cat  hmm),  additional revenue tax for bigger companies,  plastics tax, coal/CO2 tax, digital tax on tax giants (well yeah FU this giants I guess), higher mandatory payment for public [propaganda] TV&radio , among some
14:57 < queip> *tech giants
14:59 < queip> to think USA was once brace and cool enough to rebel mostly around just tea tax ;)
14:59 < Emcy> the US foundational mythos was probably a lot less cooler at the time for people who lived thru it
14:59 < queip> ohh our coffee/etc tax does include tea too
15:00 < queip> tea-based drinks (like soft drinks)
15:00 < queip> Emcy: I would be happier with it, how ever Btc is easier form of opting out of this shit to some degree
15:06 < queip> Emcy: do you have to do enough to have problems with hmrc?
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15:18 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht merged pull request #4816: itest: run sub itests correctly for watchtower tests (master...anchor-itest-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4816
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15:19 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/8ec4697fe3ef...7f330d79c1a8
15:19 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 0a4962a Oliver Gugger: itest: run sub itests correctly
15:19 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 7f330d7 Conner Fromknecht: Merge pull request #4816 from guggero/anchor-itest-fix
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15:24 < queip> first USA, now the Moon. Change 5 landed today
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15:38 < waxwing> queip, rain tax?
15:38 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/DevVoluntarism/status/1333874659830349825
15:39 < Emcy> haha did they trigger the rolling checkpoint exploit? haha
15:39 < Emcy> it finally happened
15:39 < Emcy> >we seek peaceful resolution after 9 months of civil war. our terms for peace are that abc must not use:
15:39 < Emcy> * the sha256d algorithm
15:39 < Emcy> * the string "bitcoin" in the coin name
15:39 < Emcy> the irony omg
15:41 < queip> kek
15:42 < queip> let's see the genius invention of 10 block finalization in action
15:42 < queip> where BABers talk, any forum? do the discuss "success" of finalization, and possible failures? will they release new version of software to force new users on that chain?
15:43 < queip> waxwing: size of roof of building plus perhaps area size. any excuse is good, why not take more money from citizens, what they gonna do
15:44 < queip> waxwing: though afair it existed before and now is "just" increased
15:45 < queip> one country somewhere in asia afair has a street-use tax, based of building... width (street-facing), so everyone builds tall long and 1 room "thick" buildings heh
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15:46 < queip> Emcy: abc would be better just switching to merge mine now with bitcoin
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15:49 < waxwing> land tax makes a lot of sense to me, certainly fairer than consumption tax which disproportionately affects the asset-poor.
15:50 < waxwing> taxing stuff *like* land generally (sort of 'fixed assets' i guess) .. though i can't imagine a specific form of taxation would ever give an ideal effect.
15:50 < queip> waxwing: the land tax of course stays too, this is just what was added during covid
15:51 < queip> land tax is only tax one might consider just (if any), next to per head
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15:59 < queip> that part's important too - ▸ voluntarism.dev on Twitter: bcha has now forked into two chains: abc-a (original) and abc-b (new)
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16:44 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht merged pull request #4793: Cosmetic: Add newline to end of log statement (master...cosmetic/add-newline-to-log) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4793
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16:44 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/7f330d79c1a8...e9b5b2d76788
16:44 < lnd-bot> lnd/master b06e0c6 Marty Jones: Add newline to end of log statement
16:44 < lnd-bot> lnd/master e9b5b2d Conner Fromknecht: Merge pull request #4793 from murtyjones/cosmetic/add-newline-to-log
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16:56 < midnight> .price bchabc btc
16:56 < deb0rah> Sorry, pair not found.. :(
16:56 < midnight> .price bcha btc
16:56 < deb0rah> poloniex 0.00078294 [-2.22%] | southxchange 0.00090099 [-54.95%] |
16:56 < midnight> .price bchn btc
16:56 < deb0rah> Sorry, pair not found.. :(
16:56 < midnight> .price bch btc
16:56 < deb0rah> binance 0.01541200 [-3.72%] | bittrex 0.01539793 [-3.94%] | southxchange 0.01546106 [-4.97%] | livecoin 0.01532651 [-5.07%] | hitbtc 0.01539800 [-3.74%] | bleutrade 0.01503417 [-5.45%] | graviex 0.01598895 [-1.24%] | poloniex 0.01538124 [-3.66%] | kraken 0.01538000 [-3.81%] |
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16:59 < queip> more like bchabca ;)
17:04 < midnight> up is down, down is up, amaury's own creation is stolen from him lol
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17:08 < Emcy> ;;tlast
17:08 <@gribble> 18721.15
17:08 < Emcy> looking forward to tomorrows bullrun
17:18 < midnight> :-/ remnants of linux-world circular dependencies in a source-building tree. thanks, linux. sure, *you* can build because you already have something installed, and have been that way for more than a decade.
17:18 < midnight> linux is the orobouros eating its own tails
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18:34 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef merged pull request #4792: tls: Add healthcheck to shutdown if certificate is expired (master...certificate-expiration-shutdown-option) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4792
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18:34 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 1 commit to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/e9b5b2d76788...c04773963b33
18:34 < lnd-bot> lnd/master c047739 Marty Jones: healthcheck: add healthcheck to shutdown if cert is expired (#4792)
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18:49 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef opened pull request #4817: github: remove CODEOWNERS file (master...remove-codeowners) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4817
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21:32 < phantomcircuit> midnight, an amazing amount of stuff is like that
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23:55 < ossifrage> my favorite build loop is building gcc with a compiler you don't completely trust
23:55 < ossifrage> first you build gcc, then you build gcc with gcc, then you build gcc with the gcc that build gcc (and the last two should match)
23:58 < ossifrage> I've always wondered if you can start with some old AT&T compiler and an early gcc compile until you get to gcc 10.x
23:58 < ossifrage> I'd imagine you could do it with an old Sun or SGI compiler, but how early can you go
--- Log closed Wed Dec 02 00:00:33 2020