--- Log opened Wed Dec 02 00:00:33 2020
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00:02 < pipirella> fun challenge for thw whole family during holidays
00:06 < nkuttler> i bootstrapped gcc in the 90s on solaris, it was very easy
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00:34 < Veggen> my december fun is https://adventofcode.com/ - fun way to have some non-important programming tasks for example to get started looking at a new language.
00:34 < Entitlement> Veggen - [ Advent of Code 2020 ]
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01:41 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth merged pull request #4817: github: remove CODEOWNERS file (master...remove-codeowners) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4817
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01:41 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/c04773963b33...7dd3e182342d
01:41 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 44d8485 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: github: remove CODEOWNERS file
01:41 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 7dd3e18 Johan T. Halseth: Merge pull request #4817 from Roasbeef/remove-codeowners
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02:45 < Emcy> gmaxwell did you see, the bcha attacker triggered the 10 block finalisation exploit it seems
02:45 < Emcy> "while amaury was sleeping" lol
02:45 < Emcy> fun fun
02:51 < Veggen> the fun really starts when some BCHA supporters decides to hit back. BCHN is just as vulnerable (well, almost - hash rate isn't that prohibitive)
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03:04 < Emcy> ;;tlast
03:04 <@gribble> 19188.97
03:15 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k4oieu/youve_done_the_impossible_declares_bitcoincom/
03:15 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ “You’ve Done The Impossible!” Declares Bitcoin.com Host to Richard Heart, Founde... ]
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03:16 < Emcy> jesus christ roger is *still* shilling this blatant scam
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03:16 < Emcy> so scammy even his acolytes called him out for it till he made the noises they needed to hear to quiet them down
03:16 < Emcy> but hes still engaged with it
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03:18 < Veggen> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k5382c/the_entertainment_never_ceases/ - seems Amaury has invoked the checkpoints?
03:18 < Entitlement> Veggen - [ The entertainment never ceases : btc ]
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03:38 < Emcy> he and the main bcha miner did an invalidateblock about 200 blocks back lmao
03:43 < Veggen> tools are there to do the same in BCHN.
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04:21 < queip> look at me  proving how insecure my chain is
04:22 < queip> Emcy: also the less stupid of more stupid ex-bitcoiners are calling out egon. he is so annoying
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04:55 < Emcy> theyre consistently overrulled
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05:37 < Veggen> queip: it must be frustrating to be a "sane" big-blocker, these days.
05:40 < pipirella> bitcoin was 20 years too late
05:40 < pipirella> I think the future of bitcoin might be fucked
05:41 < queip> pipirella: what do you mean too late?
05:42 < queip> also, 20 years ago block size would be like 0.05 MB or less, on damn dialups and all
05:43 < queip> is you mean 20 years from start, so in 1990's, then it wouldnt be possible for most people in europe to participate really at all in running node or mine
05:44 < queip> and none of crypto primitives were ready
05:47 < nsh> every technology is of its age, save for the bicycle and ak-47
05:48 < queip> check out this new RADICAL idea - our front page... in the Internet!  geocities.com/bitcoin
05:50 < queip> pipirella: I think future of humanity is in serious danger, with china getting on top of USA with either spoofed elections or radicalised communist supporter, with NCOV new world order and great economical reset
05:51 < queip> but Bitcoin? not so much?  sure there are things to improve but nothing too dramatic. Would be great to either get more decentralized cheap electricity and fags, or change pow at some point
05:51 < queip> uh, *fabs
05:53 < queip> is there some great danger for Btc that we should work against?
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08:28 < RusAlex> hi mates, I have ERR in logs constantly. https://termbin.com/gsvc  Im using master point of lnd. and situation appeared when peer tried to open a channel to me, but then till confirmation canceled the funding transaction and I had 'pending_open_channel' with not existing transaction. then I did force close to this channel. and now I have this channel in 'waiting_close_channel' list 
08:29 < midnight> phantomcircuit: maybe I'm just noticing it more these days. the *bsd people have a weird kind of ancient wisdom and honestly whenever I'm not around it things break more. :-/
08:35 < midnight> queip: might just be roger..
08:36 < Emcy> https://v.redd.it/n7owqsp6oq261/DASH_480.mp4#mp4 when you roll up to rob someone random but its actually your boy
08:36 < Emcy> south america
08:41 < gmaxwell> it's who ya know!
08:44 < Emcy> yep lol
08:44 < Emcy> 2 dudes riding a moped = trouble
08:48 < midnight> diving down the freebsd ports tree hole is like navigating a dropship..  in the pipe, five.. by five..
08:50 < midnight> circular dependencies..
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08:50 < midnight> a user bottleneck for options selection i haven't found a way around yet.
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09:02 < midnight> ooo..  a screen status window
09:02 < midnight> That's nice
09:02 < lndbot> <gugger> Your node would have forgotten about the pending open channel after 2 weeks. But because you tried force closing, it is now in a state where you have to get rid of the manually
09:03 < midnight> right to the last character in the window! impressive
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10:08 < queip> [01/12/2020 22:07] <ctrlbreak> Any decent resources for sourcing SHA-256 HW in North America
10:08 < queip> [02/12/2020 18:38] <ctrlbreak> Decent source for SHA256 ASICs in Canada?
10:08 < queip> getting desperate xd
10:09 < queip> midnight: roger might be serious threat to btc? I hope it's the biggest threat we have then
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10:32 < RusAlex> how to get rid of it ?
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10:39 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/BitcoinCashSite/status/1334127976741548034
10:39 < Emcy> >biometric hardware wallet
10:39 < Emcy> oh no
10:40 < Emcy> biometrics is the biggest meme in computer security
10:47 < midnight> Emcy: "wait I needed that"
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10:55 < nkuttler> ah, biometrics. yeah, please cut off one of my limbs to exploit it
10:55 < gmaxwell> no need to bother, all that shit is super insecure.
10:55 < gmaxwell> intercept some pin, send a constant, biometric passes.
10:56 < nkuttler> that's reassuring
10:56 < Emcy> can you imagine someone storing an absolute fortune on a biometric wallet
10:56 < gmaxwell> it's only helpful if you assume the attacker won't disassemble the device.
10:56 < nkuttler> possibly protected by a fingerprint.. because that's so easy to secure
10:56 < lndbot> <gugger> there's the `lncli abandonchannel` command. but you need to compile lnd from source to activate it, since it's a dangerous command (if the channel ever does get confirmed, you wouldn't be able to get your money out)
10:56 < Emcy> many many people will have absolutely no problem at all removing your thumb with a garden secateurs to get at it
10:59 < nkuttler> how many coins are we talking about?
10:59 < gmaxwell> fewer than people who wouldn't be willing to remove your thumb?
11:03 < queip> meanwhile biometric wallets in Poland - https://youtu.be/xLJVxoFVTNY?t=145 - still need the limb
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11:24 < phantomcircuit> midnight, bsd stuff is all.... interesting
11:25 < phantomcircuit> i stopped using freebsd when there was a trivial lpe in the most obvious possible place, you just set LDPRELOAD and then ran any setuid binary and you were root
11:25 < phantomcircuit> if i can look at an exploit that severe and go... 'duh'
11:25 < phantomcircuit> well you fucked up
11:37 < gmaxwell> lots of OSes had ldpreload hax at one point.
11:38 < midnight> ehh..  I'm not totally sure but I'm pretty sure either that wasn't that easy, or there was a specific exploit for that which bypassed the LD_PRELOAD mitigation stuff (and was likely instantly fixed). LD_PRELOAD has been a hax0r-my-b0x0r mech for suid since almost before I ever used a command-line.
11:40 < midnight> Most of the recent stuff that was problematic in the *BSDs was a result of exposing kernel interfaces to userland via new facilities like userland fuse which were never meant to be exposed, or mbuf fiddling, etc.
11:41 < midnight> like. why give the user a path to sensitive filesystem calls. brutal.
11:42 < midnight> there have been random number-generator issues in a few versions of some BSD.
11:43 < gmaxwell> netbsd is brutal there.
11:43 < gmaxwell> the system rng totally insecure on three occasions within a window of three years.
11:44 < midnight> poor thor. :(
11:46 < Emcy> the one thing you really dont want to have a flaw
11:46 < Emcy> computers should try an tap whatever source of analogue noise they can, perhaps
11:47 < Emcy> the noise floor of the mic jack maybe
11:49 < midnight> http://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/security/advisories/NetBSD-SA2013-003.txt.asc description of NetBSD's issue
11:53 < midnight> "Thanks to: Thor Lancelot Simon for causing, finding, "fixing", and fixing the bug
11:53 < midnight> and helping with this advisory."
12:02 < Emcy> is his name really thor
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12:23 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes but this was in like 2013 or something and i was very surprised
12:23 < phantomcircuit> it was also enough to breakout of freebsd jails which it shouldn't have been
12:26 < phantomcircuit> midnight, it was 2013 and it was literally just a .so running execve('/bin/sh') and you had a root shell out of the jail
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12:46 < midnight> phantomcircuit: ehhh..  did you report it somewhere or document it? That hasn't worked in like 30y.
12:48 < phantomcircuit> midnight, it was released as a 0day with the simplest poc i've ever seen
12:48 < midnight> Like even in 2009, you had to be clever about LD_PRELOAD tricks: https://xorl.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/freebsd-ld_preload-security-bypass/
12:48 < Entitlement> midnight - [ FreeBSD LD_PRELOAD Security Bypass | xorl %eax, %eax ]
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12:51 < phantomcircuit> midnight, btw the exploit in that example only works by random chance, if environ[0] is valid it doesn't work
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13:15 < RusAlex> Im on master branch. But `make && make install` gives regular version where this command is disabled
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13:24 < andytoshi> lol somebody is using my ringsigs https://mobile.twitter.com/n1ckler/status/1334240709814136833
13:24 < Entitlement> andytoshi - [ twitter - Twitter ]
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13:30 < gmaxwell> someone should make a PR to bitcoin core to export all the taproot script pubkeys matching a {height,value} filter.
13:30 < andytoshi> somebody was just mentioning that scantxoutset can't do this even if we had taproot descriptor support
13:30 < andytoshi> but it should be able to
13:30 < queip> annoying that bitcoin core can't add watchonly address when  prune
13:31 < gmaxwell> I suppose it would be pretty easy to ZKP the value too,
13:31 < queip> it should flag since which point it scanned
13:31 < andytoshi> at the very least you should be able to "get all taproot outputs"
13:32 < belcher> queip yes it can
13:32 < queip> belcher: by importaddr?
13:32 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: a proof of "I own 5 or more outputs, and combined they add to at least 1 BTC"  should be pretty easy too.
13:32 < belcher> sure, any of those, importmulti too
13:32 < belcher> but rescan needs to be false
13:33 < andytoshi> i think "5 or more" might require a linkable ringsig to prevent you claiming the same output 5 times
13:33 < andytoshi> so it's mathematicalyl pretty easy but would probabyl be more than a couple hours of coding
13:33 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: ah, point. but yea would require a little more work to add the linkability.
13:34 < gmaxwell> maybe we should make some IRC channel that you can only join if you can anonymously prove to have an output worth some amount. ##bitcoin-hodl
13:34 < gmaxwell> :P
13:35 < andytoshi> haha, we've talked about that for years ...but with taproot + borromean sigs it's actually not too far from being reasonable
13:35 < gmaxwell> yeah, well we could have done it previously across already revealed pubkeys, but the anonymity set was not so hot. taproot will improve that a lot.
13:36 < midnight> gmaxwell: hah, that channel already exists
13:36 < midnight> (not by that name though)
13:36 < pipirella> look at me im rich
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13:37 < belcher> how do you prove it now midnight ?
13:37 < midnight> not even
13:37 < midnight> the anonymity part is gentleperson's agreement
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13:38 < gmaxwell> I'm aware of that channel. But it's also not enforced, it's all honor system.
13:38 < midnight> it used to be enforced.
13:38 < gmaxwell> which is fine in context.
13:38 < pipirella> does it have anything to do with whales?
13:38 < midnight> no
13:38 < gmaxwell> I don't recall anyone asking me to prove it when I was in there.
13:39 < pipirella> whales just make splash
13:39 < midnight> gmaxwell: that was after it stopped being enforced
13:39 < gmaxwell> (it would have been a huge PITA to do so, because I've always kept my coins on many outputs)
13:39 < pipirella> spartans hold
13:39 < pipirella> you are not exactly anonymous gmaxwell
13:39 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: A thing to do this could also add outputs with network-exposed pubkeys to the anonymity set.
13:40 < gmaxwell> pipirella: hows that related?
13:41 < pipirella> people expect you to have some bitcoin
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13:41 < gmaxwell> pipirella: Sure sure. You've got it backwards.
13:42 < gmaxwell> The discussion here is a channel where people all have some bitcoin, but where they don't have to expose which coins are theirs or how much they have (other than being above the limit)
13:42 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: true, though it would be nice if we could get the output purely from the utxoset without needing another db of revealed keys
13:43 < gmaxwell> Agreed.
13:44 < gmaxwell> Though perhaps a static, system defined list of pkh->pubkey would be okay too... e.g. get whole utxo set from bitcoin, combine with static list.
13:45 < andytoshi> yeah. i guess it's not hard to validate such a list
13:45 < gmaxwell> even once taproot has been deployed for a year, the plausable anonymity set would still massively be increased by having that resolution table. The fact that it doesn't get updated wouldn't be a big deal, because new outputs should be taproot.
13:45 < gmaxwell> it would be self-validating, e.g. you hash it as you read it.
13:46 < andytoshi> ah yeah
13:47 < gmaxwell> and the static list could be populated using data from forkcoins too..  e.g. list of every pubkey that as of now has unspent coins in bitcoin and the pubkey is known from bitcoin or bcash history.
13:50 < andytoshi> haha true
13:50 < andytoshi> i guess that's an independently interesting project to gather every single EC key people have used on these networks
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14:03 < gmaxwell> it was less interesting before taproot because people would move coins and then their coins would fall out of the list.
14:04 < gmaxwell> so the list would have to be constantly regenerated.
14:04 < andytoshi> iirc the size of the total list is multiple millions
14:04 < andytoshi> based on pieter's investigation when we were talk ing about hashing taproot
14:04 < Emcy> is there port and cigars in this hodlrs club
14:04 < andytoshi> would be hard to prove a multi-million sized ringsig
14:05 < andytoshi> though not impossible
14:05 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: with spendable coins?
14:06 < gmaxwell> probably not after filtering dust.
14:06 < andytoshi> ah right yeah
14:07 < gmaxwell> also a modern desktop should be able to prove at maybe 25,000 keys per second single threaded.
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14:09 < andytoshi> yeah i'm not too worried about 100s of 000s. but millions will take many minutes/hours
14:09 < gmaxwell> 7 minutes for 10 million?
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14:28 < andytoshi> yeah ok i wrote some benchmarks... 1000 keys is 45ms on my system. 2000 is 95. 5000 is 245 ... i.e. it scales pretty-much perfectly linearly as expected
14:28 < andytoshi> and 10 million would take.... 7.5 minutes. damnt :P
14:28 < gmaxwell> I can math.
14:29 < andytoshi> haha
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14:58 < pipirella> did satoshi add halvings for the pure purpose of drama?
14:58 < pipirella> or was it laziness?
14:59 < belcher> we dont know, but i think the drama aspect is a huge part of it
15:00 < belcher> having one single date that the entire world can obsess over is great for psychology
15:00 < belcher> if it was a smoothly decreasing function we wouldnt have any of that
15:01 < Emcy> probably because it results in the simplest coinbase reward schedule possible, which didnt even get its first single decimal fractional until 2 halfings later
15:01 < Emcy> maybe that was important to incentivise miners capacity planning
15:01 < Emcy> or maybe for no reason at all
15:02 < pipirella> were there really any miners before GPU days?
15:02 < pipirella> or FPGA even
15:03 < Emcy> some parts of bitcoin seem to be designed with a vision decades into the future, other parts seem like harebrained ideas he had while sitting on the toilet
15:03 < Emcy> like the built in gambling stuff lol
15:03 < pipirella> hahaha
15:03 < pipirella> yeah
15:03 < Emcy> pipirella satoshi was the first miner, on his cpu
15:04 < Emcy> people used to mine on cpus. You could just click generate coins in the gui.
15:04 < belcher> Emcy miners can capacity plan with any schedule, as long as its known
15:04 < belcher> i wonder if another reason is avoiding floating point arithmetic
15:04 < pipirella> yes but there's a big difference between running the bitcoin software and what mining is today, with the pools and the whole operation, the miners dont even use bitcoin
15:05 < Emcy> yes but maybe not having an infinitely long fractional for a coinbase which changes slightly every block would make people want to invest in mining more or something idk
15:06 < Emcy> like i said, maybe it was no reason at all. Maybe halfings happen because it was the simplest thing *for satoshi*
15:09 < gmaxwell> decreasing every block would make it more attractive to reorg prior blocks.
15:09 < gmaxwell> e.g. why should I take THIS block when I can try to get the last block?
15:09 < gmaxwell> with few miners that would have been a concern, if a minor one.
15:10 < gmaxwell> also he wanted it to be eventually be zero... but not initially be zero.
15:10 < gmaxwell> (because coins need to exist)
15:11 < gmaxwell> so it has to decrease. ... having it constant and then STOPing would be quite a shock.
15:12 < Emcy> i think we all expected 12.5 > 6.25 to be choppy, but nothing really happened
15:12 < gmaxwell> I feel confident that had I been making that decision I would have made the same one (well, no idea if I would have chosen similar intervals-- but a geometric series)
15:12 < gmaxwell> Emcy: meh go look at logs you can find me saying it wouldn't be.
15:12 < queip> gmaxwell: then wouldn't people fight on reorging the last 12.5 btc block?
15:13 < queip> (though yeah, then only 1, maybe 2 blocks affected.. problem just for ~an hour each 4 years)
15:13 < Emcy> well i expect something. but nothing happened to price or hashrate or anything
15:15 < gmaxwell> queip: it's a lot harder to setup to do something for just one block.
15:15 < gmaxwell> like only one miner will be the last block, but for that trouble to happen all miners would need to adjust their software.
15:16 < pipirella> so halving is every 210,000th block, there are 21M bitcoin (not really but for the sake of argument), something about 21 right
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15:17 < pipirella> and the 10 minute block thing, is that from waitbutwhy? what's the origin? some lesswrong thing?
15:17 < pipirella> satoshi id confirmed
15:17 < pipirella> this goes deep
15:18 < Emcy> divining satoshis constants, everyone goes down this rabbithole once or twice
15:18 < gmaxwell> well I believe 21m bitcoin came from the software originally having 0.01 precision and fitting the result into signed integers (31 bits).
15:18 < Emcy> who mined the last 12.5 block?
15:19 < pipirella> gmaxwell: right, and the first few emails warned satoshi about decimals combined with financial software?
15:20 < gmaxwell> I don't see how thats related.
15:21 < gmaxwell> There is no floating point in bitcoin itself, the the decimal in the display is cosmetic.
15:22 < pipirella> ok
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15:24 < pipirella> I thought earlier version had it
15:25 < pipirella> I remember the first halving and how little I knew back then
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17:13 < midnight> pipirella: 10 minutes is a super convenient constant. If you work out approximate propagation delays I think the viable consensus shell given some $x density of nodes goes out to the moon. If there's a single-line of comms without a shell, 10 minutes has all kinds of space-y possibilities.
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17:23 < queip> mining both at Sun at here will be problematic for first years tho, at ~8 of 10 minutes lag ;)
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17:25 < midnight> you can't mine at the sun unless everyone mines at the sun
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20:12 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: probably would be much more pratical for a big coins proof to use a bulletproof, with a hashtree build over the outputs using the purify hash.  log(utxo_set) time proving, verifying and log(log()) sized proofs.
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20:13 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: you can just use the purify hash of the private key as the thing you publish.. so you'd get a tracable 1 of N POK.
20:15 < gmaxwell> just not clear to me if you can super efficiently instantiate it over secp256k1 or if you'd have to flip it and instantate over secq256k1.
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20:33 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef merged pull request #4815: wtdb+wtclient: segregate session-key-index reservations by blob-type (master...wtclient-key-segregation) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4815
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20:34 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/7dd3e182342d...c58589db3bad
20:34 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 9bd73c0 Conner Fromknecht: wtdb+wtclient: segregate session-key-index reservations by blob-type
20:34 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 6b4df04 Conner Fromknecht: wtclient_tests: remove expErr param from nextKeyIndex
20:34 < lnd-bot> lnd/master c58589d Olaoluwa Osuntokun: Merge pull request #4815 from cfromknecht/wtclient-key-segregation
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 03 00:00:34 2020