--- Log opened Mon Dec 07 00:00:38 2020
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00:32 < lnd-bot> [lnd] carlaKC opened pull request #4837: github: add workflow that allows us to pin dependencies (master...workflows-pindeps) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4837
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02:12 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth opened pull request #4838: sweep/txgenerator: fix input witness ordering (master...sweeper-input-script-ordering) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4838
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02:29 < queip> which DNS provider takes bitcoin, and is good?
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05:22 < queip> domain names are such a bad idea. registrar goes down and takes domains with him lol :/
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05:27 < queip> a reminder why domain-based "decentralized services" (like matrix, mastodont) are just a waste of time
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05:37 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth opened pull request #4840: [anchors] zero-fee HTLC secondlevel transactions (master...anchors-zero-fee-secondlevel) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4840
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06:42 < nsh> you don't need to be beholden to a dns registrar to use mastodon afaik
06:42 < nsh> it will work with alternate decentralised naming schemes
06:42 < nsh> (maybe with a modicum of effort)
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07:15 < nanotube> queip: namecheap takes btc, iirc
07:23 < queip> will ICANN return a domain that is kept by dying registrar who can't be contacted to release domain codes? postal mail data were given to registrar but are hidden from whois
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07:48 < Old_Man> queip is just doing that stupid thing he always does, where instead of making a cogent point, he just hurls childish insults instead.
07:49 < Old_Man> Hey queip, remember when you stupidly tried to insult everyone who would agree to take a COVID-19 vaccine, and then when we asked what was wrong with them, you couldn't point to *any* failure, but only talked about your risk-averseness to them instead? Hahahahahaha!
07:49 < Old_Man> That's exactly how stupid you sound when you go railing against federated services because they still use DNS.
07:51 < queip> Old_Man: point is clearly made. Domain names can dissapear at any point and you can't do much with it
07:51 < queip> it just happened to me (well, I'm one of users, but still I am affected)
07:51 < Old_Man> And how accurate is your risk assessment? What percentage of domain names have magically disappeared?
07:52 < queip> Old_Man: 10,000 customers were served there, it was quite reputable registrar and first one to easily take BTC, and also not using bitpay
07:52 < queip> and then, just gone, with 1 month notice
07:52 < Old_Man> And what percentage of domain names did that represent?
07:53 < Old_Man> What percentage of registrars has that ever happened to?
07:53 < Old_Man> From the Scandinavian fear-of-flying study, we learned that women are actually much worse at accurate risk assessment than men are. Usually I don't care about the phenotypes of the people I chat with on IRC, but I just have to ask: queip, are you a woman?
07:54 < queip> oh the "don't worry it won't happen to you" argument for solutions that are not reliable. It's a bad argument
07:55 < Old_Man> Oh, I'm quite sure the one month notice you got was probably insufficient for you to react intelligently. One YEAR notice would probably not have been sufficient for you to react intelligently. :D
07:55 < Old_Man> So, by all means, just keep hurling insults at people who are better at managing change than you are.
07:56 < Old_Man> The combination of your shitty risk assessment and your inability to respond to change makes your insults particularly hilarious. :D
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08:00 < Emcy> can you not
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08:24 < queip> 1 month notice is bad for DNS, some people buy domain for 5 years specifically to avoid issue when they go on longer vacation
08:26 < queip> would be nice if PGP pubkey could be set by user as alternative to domain code. (still this doesn't help all the cases where domain name is taken from you)
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08:49 < PatBoy> Hi,
08:49 < PatBoy> how is possible?
08:49 < PatBoy>             "chan_id_in": "645419922688704512",
08:49 < PatBoy>             "chan_id_out": "645419922688704512",
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09:32 < PatBoy> nevermind
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10:27 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/WTJaqxTH0tQ looks like china is starting to produce lots of different minature 4 stroke engines now
10:28 < Emcy> even got tiny little built in brushless starter motors
10:28 < Emcy> so cute
10:28 < Emcy> i wonder if a tiny turbo or supercharger could function adequately on this scale
10:29 < Emcy> ha its even water cooled with a tiny rad and pump
10:34 < Emcy> they al still run on nitro though. Ive only seen one sub 10cc engine that runs on petrol
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11:27 < Emcy> ;;tlast
11:27 <@gribble> 19006.07
11:28 < queip> !altprice usd
11:28 <@gribble> {"USD":1,"BTC":0.00005259}
11:31 < grubles> huh TIL about altprice
11:32 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/BashCo_/status/1335251391074492422
11:32 < Emcy> dont trust dorsey
11:33 < Emcy> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-battle-for-p2sh-the-untold-story-of-the-first-bitcoin-war
11:33 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ How The War For Bitcoin P2SH Was Fought – Bitcoin Magazine ]
11:34 < Emcy> nice, finally someone other than scammer shitcoiners is writing bitcoins canon
11:34 < Emcy> the mythos
11:45 < gmaxwell> https://www.pjstar.com/story/news/columns/luciano/2020/12/07/peoria-artist-says-mystery-man-hired-him-paint-massive-mural/3855003001/
11:45 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ Peoria artist says mystery man hired him to paint massive mural ]
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12:02 < Emcy> am i still here
12:04 < Emcy> dns completely fails for that site
12:04 < Emcy> thats really weird
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12:08 < Emcy> https://phys.org/news/2020-12-chinese-photonic-quantum-supremacy.html
12:08 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Chinese photonic quantum computer demonstrates quantum supremacy ]
12:08 < Emcy> >quantum supremacy
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12:21 < queip> afaik it's totally not useful in anything related to crypto, they set up some mirrors and simulated.. optics
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12:41 < Xelraa> what would be so cute if we could buy tiny tiny nuclear reactors for powering model cars and model subs for 10 years+ or other purposes :D
12:41 < Xelraa> that engine is heavy as fuck they couldnt be serious putting that into an rc plane
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12:46 < Emcy> its a surface engine
12:46 < Emcy> you can certainly buy model scale radial engines though
12:46 < Emcy> even wankels
12:47 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/q3A3c68gAlM
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12:49 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/WW7lDm2x9pw?t=118 model wankel with a perspex 'cylinder head'
12:49 < gmaxwell> Xelraa: tiny nuclear reactors don't work, because you need enough mass for latent criticality.  Tiny nuclear-decay batteries work, but don't put out much power.
12:50 < Emcy> yeah thats true
12:50 < Emcy> spheres of critical mass hi enrichment material arnet that big though, perhaps 6 or 8 inches diameter
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12:51 < Emcy> but nothing that would fit in a rc model
12:51 < Emcy> also theyre very heavy
12:51 < gmaxwell> right but even if the fuel is 6 inches the whole reactor is going to be much much bigger.
12:52 < gmaxwell> and enriched fule is its own problem.
12:52 < gmaxwell> I think powering an actual car might be possible, but not an rc car.
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12:53 < Emcy> thats definitely one of those things it was only possible to even attempt in the 50s
12:54 < gmaxwell> unrelated, we watched the orville, and found it to be corny but good. I hope they continue it.
12:54 < Emcy> haha yeah its corny
12:54 < Emcy> gets better in s02
12:55 < gmaxwell> yes, I agree.
12:55 < Emcy> you watched all of it?
12:55 < gmaxwell> Yeah, we've watched all of it now.
12:55 < gmaxwell> (you mentioned it a few weeks ago but we finished person of interest first)
12:55 < Emcy> i dont know whats taking them so long with s03
12:56 < Emcy> s03 has already been confirmed
12:56 < gmaxwell> Covid, presumably.
12:56 < gmaxwell> not like they can have the characters all going around in masks. :P
12:56 < Emcy> well yeah but i thought it started filming half way thru 2019
12:57 < Emcy> maybe not, s02 finished airing in april 19
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13:29 < grubles> gmaxwell: what's in your server rack that pieter posted
13:31 < Emcy> lots of 2080ti i think
13:33 < gmaxwell> grubles: what you can see in the picutre is a system with 10 2080tis, then a computer with 4x E7-8894v4 (broadwell 2.4ghz 24 core), then 5 more computers with E7-8880v4 (broadwell 2.2ghz 22 core).
13:34 < grubles> noice
13:34 < gmaxwell> I have more hardware that I haven't turned up yet... two more 4x E7-8894v4 hosts, two more 4x E7-8880v4 hosts,  and another epyc host. (not visible in that picture is a 2x epyc 7742 host-- it's in the closed rack).
13:35 < Emcy> >to find the optimal constant for the checksum algorithm for bech32's successor
13:35 < Emcy> successor already?
13:36 < gmaxwell> sadly, there is a confluence of two unfortunate things:
13:37 < gmaxwell> (1) though bech32 was intended to support new address versions, it turns out that this fuctionality is broken virtually everywhere outside of bitcoin core. :(  some commercial sites even burn your funds by sending to invalid scripts when you give them a non-v0 input. (most just fail to send)
13:38 < queip> on upside this will teach people to stop the malarkey of not using bitcoin core
13:38 < gmaxwell> (2) thought bech32 wasn't specifically designed to be strong against insertion errors we expected it to reject them with one in a billion odds of messing up. Unfortunately, we didn't test that behavior and it turns out if the last character of the address is a p you can add any number of qs before that p and it'll be accepted.  This isn't a problem for v0 because the length is only allowed to be
13:38 < gmaxwell> two differen far apart sizes.
13:39 < gmaxwell> But for v1 people want to make it accept arbritary sizes (even though only one size is defined by taproot), I don't really agree with this desire to allow other sizes, but .. well not my call,  so the  q-padding thing is an actual (if minor) issue.
13:40 < gmaxwell> So sipa proposes we change a constant which fixes the q-padding issue and also safely makes the addresses incompatible with the old software.  Programs will need a ~1-2 line of code change to accept the new addresses.
13:40 < queip> can't be fixed just by "encoding (and error protecting)" also the few bits of value of string length?
13:41 < gmaxwell> queip: by picking the the final constant right the length is protected, without making the addresses any bigger.
13:42 < gmaxwell> when we originally designed the code we thought the choice of the final constant was totally irrelevant, other than it needed to be non-zero so that bc1[any number of qs]qqqqqq wouldn't be a valid address.
13:44 < gmaxwell> And for changes that don't change the length, the choice of constant actually is pretty much irrelevant.
13:44 < gmaxwell> so we just made the constant 1.  But it turns out that one (and other small values that have few bits set) turn out to be much weaker for changes that insert or remove a few characters.
13:45 < gmaxwell> which someone noticed after they tried testing that a few years after it had been deployed.
13:46 < gmaxwell> Personally I was strongly in favor of not changing it and just mandating each version specify what lengths are allowed, and that they don't support any lengths which are only one or two apart.
13:46 < Emcy> huh i remember this p q thing
13:46 < Emcy> why do people want variable length addresses
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13:46 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #4841: rpcserver: replace sweep_all in log with send_all to match rpc arg (master...send-coins-log-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4841
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13:46 < Emcy> like the actual character count? who cares about that
13:47 < gmaxwell> But then people checked and found that the idea of compatiblity didn't work-- sites mostly won't send to bc1p addresses now, and worse, a few burn the money  (they basically send to a bc1q address but with your hash payload from the bc1p address)... which is a really bad outcome because the loss is potentially unbounded. someone could withdraw 1000 BTC from one of those exchanges.
13:49 < gmaxwell> Emcy: weird path dependency.  Taproot only specifies what a script of  "OP_1 <32 byte pubkey>" does, other if you make the public key another length it's permited but have no rules applied to them.   So like in the future taproot with 40 byte pubkeys could be defined.
13:49 < gmaxwell> No reason for the consensus to forbid other lengths...
13:49 < gmaxwell> so I think that makes sense.
13:49 < gmaxwell> But then since consensus permits it, some people have argued that the addresses should to, for consistency sake.
13:50 < gmaxwell> it's not a crazy argument, but I think the extra proteciton of exactly forcing the lenghts is better.
13:51 < gmaxwell> like even with the corrected constant, inserting a couple characters MAY be falsely accepted... it's just really unlikely.  Better to enforce the length and get a guarentee.
13:55 < gmaxwell> in any case additional length restrictions can be added at any time.
13:55 < Emcy> so theres no real argument for it except yolo and a good argument against it
13:57 < Emcy> this q insertion is only a problem now in context of taproot
13:58 < gmaxwell> q insertion isn't a problem for v0 because v0 the length is already restricted.
13:58 < Emcy> yes
13:58 < Emcy> im shocked some services handle this so badly theyll burn your money
13:59 < gmaxwell> (I mean, in theory you could take a p2wpkh ending in p and add a dozen qs and end up with a p2wsh that is permitted and will burn your money but ... you'd basically have to be trying to do that)
14:00 < gmaxwell> the argument for allowing variable length in bc1p addresses is that maybe in the future we might want to migrate to larger pubkeys and it would be nice to not need to use another version number for this.
14:01 < gmaxwell> but some general restriction in segwit limits it to 40 bytes in any case. 384 bits would be the next obvious pubkey size and thats 48 bytes.
14:02 < Emcy> if changing the pubkeys length didnt warrant a new address version im not sure what would?
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14:03 < gmaxwell> well there are only so many address versions, so it's good to not waste them.
14:03 < gmaxwell> in any case, it's not a big deal either way.
14:03 < Emcy> hm. how many
14:04 < gmaxwell> Well, to be precise, there are 16 initial versions, but more versions can be created just by saying e.g. that if the version is 15 you then look to the next byte (and make those one longer) and then you get another 256 vesions, and so on.
14:05 < Emcy> seems like a problem for The Future
14:06 < gmaxwell> right.
14:07 < gmaxwell> in any case, this change in constant actually improves the peformance somewhat for the case where a person inserts and deletes a character, thus keeping the same length but shifting over all the charactes.
14:07 < gmaxwell> characters.
14:07 < gmaxwell> so thats nice.
14:08 < gmaxwell> the old value had this performance:
14:08 < gmaxwell> const=0x1        I: total=455916 pr(0)=58311[12.789856%] pr(2^-30)=384049[84.236789%] pr(2^-25)=4838[1.061160%] pr(2^-20)=4338[0.951491%] pr(2^-15)=4193[0.919687%] pr(2^-10)=187[0.041016%]
14:08 < gmaxwell> the new value has this:
14:08 < gmaxwell> const=0x2bc830a3 I: total=610683 pr(0)=220552[36.115628%] pr(2^-30)=389564[63.791525%] pr(2^-25)=564[0.092356%] pr(2^-20)=3[0.000491%]
14:09 < gmaxwell> this is for making two "general errors" a general error is a swap, substution, deletion, insertion, or duplication.
14:10 < Emcy> this part is over my head lol
14:11 < gmaxwell> I'm explaining:  and that says that the old code for 12.78% of possible 2-general-error change patterns, the error is always detected. For 84% it has one in a billion (2^-30) chance of passing (depending on the other characters)
14:11 < gmaxwell> and 1% for a 1 in 2^25 of passing and so on.
14:13 < gmaxwell> some error patterns (locations where you insert/delete) have a one in a thousand chance of being accepted...  but the new constant, 36.11% will never get accepted, 63.79% have one in a billion.. and none have worst than one in a million.
14:13 < gmaxwell> so the new constant is just better to.. not like.. better in an important way.
14:14 < gmaxwell> but since the fact that @#$@# services burn coins mean that changing it is a good idea regardless, might as well use a value that works better... now that we know its possible to pick a better value.
14:15 < gmaxwell> we would have done this originally if we had any idea it mattered.
14:16 < Emcy> 1 in a 1^6 is a lot better than 1 in 1^3
14:16 < gmaxwell> but: the constant only matters if either (1) you have a fixed prefix (like "bc1"), or (2) you consider changes that change the length.  and when we did our orignal work on this we weren't considering either of those factors.
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14:25 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #4842: mod: update to btcwallet master (master...update-btcwallet-dep) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4842
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14:26  * midnight stabs being on the literal minority netsplit
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14:48 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/dnvolz/status/1321447353975513094 fuck a doodle do juniper....
14:48 < grubles> wait what. moxie advised some shitcoin?
14:51 < gmaxwell> grubles: that isn't news, I think.
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14:52 < gmaxwell> Emcy: fucking netscreen, --- firewall company juniper acquired a little before I left.
14:52 < gmaxwell> Emcy: by the time I left (maybe two years after the acquisition) 100% of the netscreen engineering was in china.
14:52 < gmaxwell> Emcy: why is this in the news again?
14:53 < Emcy> i guess the part where nsa say they lost the report into the whole incident
14:53 < gmaxwell> That tweet misrepresents its quote.
14:54 < gmaxwell> It claims that juniper (really netscreen) put that backdoored PRGN in at the request of the NSA, but there is no evidence of that.
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14:54 < gmaxwell> and IIRC all indications were of the obvious.
14:55 < gmaxwell> Basically the dual-ec DRBG in the spec potentially has a trapdoor, if you know a secret.  The spec also has instructions on how you can generate your own parameters in a way that can have no trapdoor.
14:56 < Emcy> >Juniper has never identified the customer who requested it use the flawed Dual EC encryption standard or the hackers who exploited it.
14:56 < Emcy> how many suspects can there be?
14:56 < gmaxwell> The netscreen firewalls implemented dual-ec drbg with the trapdoorless value.
14:56 < gmaxwell> But then years later, some unknown party changed out the constants!
14:56 < gmaxwell> (and I think back edited the repo to hide the change? not sure)
14:57 < Emcy> yeah that smacks
14:57 < Emcy> obviously the 'bring your own const' part was to throw people off
14:58 < gmaxwell> well I bet the idea was so they you could make sure your friends were secure, while there was good odds your enemies would not be.
14:58 < Emcy> would this netscreen stuff be part of why you left
14:58 < gmaxwell> nah, I never really had anything much to do with netscreen anything.
14:59 < gmaxwell> and no one knew about any unusual security weakness in it until years after I was gone.
14:59 < Emcy> ok
15:01 < gmaxwell> the only arguably unethical thing I'm aware of juniper doing while I was there was that it provided hardware for the US government's unlawful surveilance program.
15:01 < gmaxwell> Otherwise it was a pretty good company... their product quality went down over time as the original engineers retired or moved to other companies, sadly.
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15:02 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #4843: build: check compilation of each commit (master...check-each-commit) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4843
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15:03 < gmaxwell> in general, I think networking equipment companies are probably among the best tech jobs.  They make a set of simple unambigious products with clear performance properties... they're not in any position to get stuck in weird political games like you see with twitter/google/facebook/etc.
15:03 < gmaxwell> They're just arms dealers.
15:04 < Emcy> ever seen lord of war
15:04 < gmaxwell> Yes.
15:04 < gmaxwell> Fantastic movie.
15:04 < Emcy> sure is
15:04 < Emcy> interesting moral at the end
15:05 < gmaxwell> but unless you get into stuff like connection interception devices (which juniper didn't make when I was there, I don't think does)-- there weren't any specifically unethical uses of their products.  Though everyone needs networks. Good parties, bad parties, networks are just pretty neutral.
15:06 < gmaxwell> Juniper's software isn't free software-- which is unforuntate, but a high speed router is basically just a black box, speaks standard protocols... lack of software freedom on it isn't that big of a deal.  And unlike cisco, juniper was always extremely good with standards compliance when I was there.
15:07 < grubles> gmaxwell: yeah you're right. it's old news from 2018. first i've heard about it though.
15:07 < Emcy> i have herd only really good thing about htem technology wise
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15:11 < gmaxwell> well when I went to work at juniper they only made extremely high end routers... which was a nice market because you could afford to overdesign/overengineer stuff and make it almost bulletproof.
15:12 < gmaxwell> but to grow the company that had to move into enterprise stuff which just inherently was more compromised-- more weird feature requirements, lower cost tolerance, etc.
15:14 < gmaxwell> like, it was normal that if an interface failed for one of the customers I worked with, after we gave them a replacement the company would do a circuit level fault analysis and determine the part that failed.  They'd issue proactive replacements if the fault was systemic... can't do that on a consumer product.
15:15 < midnight> Is there a clean wifi router that exists now with anti-spoofing and tracing/warning capabilities a la cisco gear but without the corporate baggage?
15:16 < gmaxwell> nothing open that I'm aware of.  I use older model ruckus in controllerless mode and it seems to work pretty good and is only mildly corporate baggaged.
15:17 < gmaxwell> -- was a recommendation to me from a friend that ran a wifi hotspot business.
15:18 < Emcy> amazing. no one does circuit level diagnostic anymore unless the item is almost irreplacable for some reason
15:21 < Emcy> i very briefly worked at an consumer electronics repair contractor place, didnt really take things down to component level very often at all except for the most common known things. Its just not worth it
15:21 < Emcy> thats a world away from the hardware juniper would supply to t1 providers though
15:22 < gmaxwell> well the motivation wasn't just to fix stuff, but to determine if there was some design flaw or part that wasn't meeting spec that necessitated a recall.  (though the parts did get fixed too, and put into the spares pool)
15:23 < Emcy> did they supply the hardened military stuff? sheilded, wirewound, entire thing resin potted etc
15:24 < gmaxwell> I think we did some vibration hardened and extended temp range stuff, but not as far as you're thinking.
15:24 < Emcy> oh yeah no one does recalls for consumer shit unless the reason is frequent unplanned fires lol
15:28 < midnight> Emcy: I do circuit-level diagnostics as much as I'm able. I have microscopes and everything. :-)
15:28 < midnight> Multiple hot-air reflow station including a small automatic one..
15:28 < Emcy> the value of your time far outstrips whatever ur fixing
15:29 < Emcy> thought i really wish i could have gotten my ps3 fat reballed.......its clean as a whistle inside and out, except the bgas are dry
15:30 < gmaxwell> I'm gussing the pcb has parts on both sides?
15:30 < Emcy> even delidded it because of the knows issue of dessicated thermal compound
15:30 < queip> some very specialized short course wouldn't allow an otherwise inexpensive worker to fix devices?
15:30 < midnight> Emcy: how is it not valuable to be able to replace a failed power resistor after a couple hours of effort rather than waiting for a whole new device to be shipped?
15:31 < gmaxwell> queip: the same inexpensive worker, with less training, could just make new devices.
15:31 < Emcy> the ps3 pcb? yes
15:31 < gmaxwell> queip: also it's fixing stuff is really only a job for semi-skilled work if you can give them a database of known common failures and their fixes... otherwise you need to be pretty clueful.
15:31 < midnight> Besides, the practice is extremely valuable.
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15:31 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef merged pull request #4787: kvdb: add timeout options for bbolt (master...4485-db-timeout) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4787
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15:32 < gmaxwell> Emcy: if not you could perhaps ghetto reflow it in a toaster oven. :P
15:32 < midnight> I.e. levelling up requires grinding.
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15:32 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 1 commit to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/125dbbf0daf9...582b164c46ea
15:32 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 582b164 Yong: kvdb: add timeout options for bbolt (#4787)
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15:32 < Emcy> oh, its already been reflowed
15:32 < Emcy> it never lasts
15:32 < Emcy> ebay flippers reflow them and sell them, thye last 2 months at best which is all thye need
15:33 < Emcy> the problem is lead free solder because of ROHS 2006
15:33 < gmaxwell> when I worked in my father's computer shop as a teenager we would do circuit level repairs of monitors (crts back then) and sometimes powersupplies, rarely might replace a toasted cap on a motherboard but usually not... most other parts were obsolete by the time they failed anyways.
15:33 < queip> do we currently has as good non-Pb solders?
15:34 < Emcy> gmaxwell original xbox 360s have this problem too, the "towel trick" was to literally wrap the consol in many towels and leave it on some hours, and it reflows itself lol
15:34 < Emcy> people used to do this every few months instead of buy a new one
15:35 < Emcy> yes can still buy Cell and RSX BGA masks on ebay i think, all you need is a good IR reflow station
15:35 < Emcy> but i dont think people do it as a service anymore
15:35 < gmaxwell> hah. I had some old lenovo where there was an issue with the gpu getting dry joints, I solved it eventually by just cramming an absolute freeking wad of paper towels between the chip and the case to keep pressure on it.
15:35 < gmaxwell> (emergency fix while I was out on a work trip)
15:36 < Emcy> lol
15:36 < Emcy> maybe i could try that...
15:36 < gmaxwell> but it kept working, so I went on to use that laptop for another two years.
15:37 < Emcy> yeah i could try spacing the x clamp for the heatsink
15:37 < Emcy> i probably wont though
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15:38 < Emcy> https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Yellow+Light+of+Death+Repair/3654 yes the old paint stripper gun special
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15:48 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1314642857043480576
15:48 < Emcy> peiters twitter is amazing
15:48 < Emcy> fruit DRM
15:49 < Emcy> patented 20% sugar grapes
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16:24 < Emcy> lol california is closing its only remaining nuclear plant
16:24 < Emcy> the rolling blackout state
16:25 < Emcy> hippies
16:25 < queip> Emcy: coz?
16:25 < Emcy> >hippies
16:25 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/moms4nuclear
16:25 < Emcy> momz 4 nuclear
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16:26 < Emcy> >More than 650-MW of backup diesel generation coming to Silicon Valley, CA
16:26 < Emcy> -Near disadvantaged elementary school
16:26 < Emcy> -Powering carbon-negative companies
16:26 < Emcy> CEC today denied CARB request for air quality studies.
16:27 < Emcy> that is a lot of filthy deisel engines
16:28 < queip> Make target country on their own reduce its literal power.   Cost: 50 political points.  Grants -3 weekly stability, -10% factories output in target, for 180 days.  Confirm? [Yes!] [Da!] [Shi!]
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16:29 < queip> I've  given up on being surprised by developed countries self-harming and creating internal problems
16:29 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/isaboemeke/status/1319674446391619584
16:29 < Emcy> if pro-nuclear tiktoks dont do the trick nothing will
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16:31 < gmaxwell> Emcy: if it's backup does it really matter that much?
16:31 < queip> Emcy: well Poland is spending millions building it's first power plant for like 40 years now.  They are ALMOST done selecting the location for it.  So we are almost back to where we were 25 years ago but then "Greens" protested and we stopped (almost started building foundation then afrair)
16:32 < queip> maybe we can get 1 half-built before Mars colonisation.
16:33 < queip> https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrownia_J%C4%85drowa_%C5%BBarnowiec
16:33 < Entitlement> queip - [ Elektrownia Jądrowa Żarnowiec – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia ]
16:33 < Emcy> gmaxwell i dont know, do the blackouts hit SV?
16:33 < Emcy> i already assumed they had plans for that
16:34 < gmaxwell> yes, because of the wildfire stuff.
16:34 < queip> oh  right, we had entire city for workers, and reactor cores part. all scrapped
16:39 < gmaxwell> that video would have been even more convincing if it used PG&E only figures instead of all california.
16:40 < gmaxwell> PG&E is the large electric company that has the diablo valley plant.  diablo valley is 27% of pg&e's power, natural gas is 20%.
16:41 < gmaxwell> (its hard for pg&e to reduce natural gas further, because its the only major source of demand capacity... every other major source just produces what it can when it can)
16:42 < Emcy> yes its hard to match the demand ramp ability of CCGT....except with nuclear
16:43 < gmaxwell> nuclear isn't particularly friendly for demand usage.
16:44 < queip> push overflows to btc miners?
16:44 < gmaxwell> because of latent reaction products you can't turn it up for a while after you've had it down, and it's also not economically sensible to run it at anything but near-max all the time.
16:44 < Emcy> i mean more like, no reason to ever turn it down regardless of demand
16:44 < gmaxwell> Right.
16:45 < midnight> bitcoiners-for-nukes
16:45 < Emcy> isnt that what they do? just put extra cooling on it when demand it low
16:45 < gmaxwell> they turn off other generation when demand is low.
16:45 < Emcy> ok
16:46 < midnight> sounds super mining-friendly..
16:46 < gmaxwell> and yeah if demand were somehow so low that this wasn't enough I assume they'd just cool it.
16:47 < gmaxwell> diablo has a dumb problem, it's messing up the sea life by taking in too much water.  There were proposals to turn it into a nearly closed loop cooling but they require removing a mountain to install the largest cooling towers ever built or something like that.
16:48 < gmaxwell> standard problem for nuke power: it's required to pay for its externalities (or eliminate them). No other power source is... but the externalities are real, so?
16:48 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i mean the other option was to make the pipe longer but apparently that was really expensive
16:49 < Emcy> largest cooling towers in history you say
16:49 < Emcy> whoa 7 gigawatt thermal
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16:51 < gmaxwell> 600 foot tall cooling towers apparently: https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/environment/article39459930.html
16:51 < Emcy> dang you wernt kidding about removing a mountain
16:52 < Emcy> >Reactors can be throttled back during heavy storm surges to prevent an excess of kelp from entering the cooling water intake
16:52 < Emcy> this is funny
16:54 < gmaxwell> I dunno why it would be so expensive to just pipe the intakes further out to sea and put in more of them.
16:58 < Emcy> maybe PGE just want to close it for other reasons
16:59 < gmaxwell> that seems to be true as well.
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17:05 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, it's a liability with almost no benefit to them
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17:06 < phantomcircuit> the rates they charge are already so far past being competitive that reasonable sources of energy aren't a priority for them
17:06 < gmaxwell> yeah lol thats true, the utility doesn't need to give a fuck they can just pass any and all cost onto the public.
17:07 < gmaxwell> actually the less efficient they make the utility the more money pg&e administration gets, since they get a percentage.
17:24 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/glozow/status/1333822555325562880 interesting
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18:22 < andytoshi> that's a pretty sweet tweet
18:22 < andytoshi> i felt that way
18:22 < andytoshi> glad the excitement is still alive
18:23 < queip> how many blocks can bitcoin reverse back in case of reorg or something? does it keep undo info like some reverse-utxo-changes file for all blocks?
18:24 < andytoshi> core will reverse as many blocks as it needs (i forget if it still has any notion of "checkpoint"ing)
18:24 < andytoshi> and it does have undo data at least for recent blocks
18:24 < andytoshi> idk what it does if you reorg past where it has undo data
18:25 < gmaxwell> it won't go back before block 210,000 once its gotten past there, but otherwise as much as it needs to.
18:25 < gmaxwell> it always has undo data if it has blocks.
18:25 < gmaxwell> if you're pruning and try to go too far I think it just gets stuck.
18:26 < andytoshi> ah interesting, i thought it might've just required a  rescan if you reorged too far
18:26 < andytoshi> which seems like a reasonable space vs very-unlikely-use-of-time tradeoff
18:26 < gmaxwell> but it won't let you prune closer than 288 blocks back from tip.
18:26 < gmaxwell> the undo data is pretty small.
18:26 < gmaxwell> (compared to blocks)
18:27 < queip> is there option to yeeet recent N blocks and redownload, or just verifychain for it?  in case last blocks corrupted
18:32 < gmaxwell> what do you mean by corrupted?
18:32 < queip> <gpled> from the debug.log says something like ERROR: AcceptBlockHeader marked invalid <gpled> then it just keeps asking peers, and saying they all are wrong
18:33 < queip> he says twice. Will see tomorrow I guess :)   No, he isn't running fork-coin by mistake
18:33 < andytoshi> that sounds like somebody is giving him a fork-coin block
18:33 < queip> andytoshi: all peers?
18:33 < andytoshi> which is harmless but will result in logs
18:34 < grubles> that happened to me a day or so i think
18:34 < grubles> i asked about it in here
18:34 < queip> he says he's stuck tho
18:34 < grubles> gmax thought it was SBTC blocks
18:34 < queip> prob:  rpi usb/power problems > disk problems > on forkcoin > eclipse > rare and terrible bug in code ;)
18:35 < andytoshi> queip: restarting the node might get him different peers ... but corrupted blocks on disk wouldn't cause this
18:35 < andytoshi> curious what the reason for marking the header invalid is
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18:49 < gmaxwell> queip: you need more log message. it'll give the block hash.
18:49 < gmaxwell> that message is totally normal because of fucking forkcoin peers
18:51 < gmaxwell> queip: do you know what he means by stuck?
18:51 < gmaxwell> like sometimes users in initial sync think they are stuck when they are not
18:51 < gmaxwell> and they start drilling holes in their heads trying to fix it.
18:51 < gmaxwell> so sad.
18:52 < gmaxwell> During initial sync blocks are recieved out of order, but progress only updates as they're accepted.. so sometimes progress display will stop for a bit until it gets back in order.
18:54 < gmaxwell> watch it turn out to be https://twitter.com/Catfish_Man/status/1335421122947366912?s=20
19:06 < Emcy> yes another nice thing about twitter. now you can only get customer service from companies on mildly complex issues if you have a twitter account, so that they can turn solving your issue into a public PR display
19:06 < Emcy> thanks twitter
19:08 < Emcy> how fucked has your equipment got to be to be just losing random bits here and there
19:08 < Emcy> whats going on with that, some big router marginally oom or something
19:08 < midnight> ..  https://www.maxlinear.com/ds/sp3222e_sp3232e.pdf  am I just..  like..  stupid or something or does this chip only claim *partial* interoperability with RS232 due to the fact that rs232 can be up to +/-25V ?
19:09 < midnight> this thing only does +/- 7V?
19:11 < gmaxwell> thats pretty typical.
19:12 < gmaxwell> I think 5v rs232 is enough to be widely compatible.
19:14 < midnight> +/- 15V is supposedly "common". :-/ That chip will fry if it even extends to its maximums at +/- 7V.
19:16 < gmaxwell> midnight: it'll take 15v in.
19:16 < gmaxwell> midnight: top of page 3
19:17 < gmaxwell> it produces +/- 5v, accepts +/- 15v.
19:17 < midnight> gmaxwell: Ah. And in the revision history.
19:17 < midnight> gmaxwell: \o thanks. Thought I was missing something.
19:18 < Emcy> >it's complicated by the fact that macOS isn't correctly dropping packets with a bad TCP checksum on my 2018 Mac Mini
19:18 < Emcy> many layers of fuckery
19:21 < gmaxwell> tcp checksum is pretty weak.
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19:22 < gmaxwell> it's only 16 bits, but because it's stupidly constructed it really only has more like maybe 9 or 10 bits of protection.
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19:25 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #4844: build: test against bitcoind 0.21.0rc2 (master...update-bitcoind-0.21.0) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4844
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19:28 < queip> users are always scared about warnings
19:29 < queip> probably "bad block" (maybe forkcoin node, or just some troll) and warning unknown bip8 signalling etc, should not be called "warnings"
19:29 < queip> more like, curious observation
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19:35 < andytoshi> i mean, this guy is looking at his debug.log
19:35 < andytoshi> which is not typical for an end user
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19:36 < andytoshi> oh i also see some AcceptBlockHeader failures in my logs "prev block not found" yeah that's a shitcoin
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19:57 < grubles> yeah happened to me a day or so ago
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19:57 < lnd-bot> [neutrino] Roasbeef opened pull request #209: build: update btcd and btcwallet dependencies (master...btcd-btcwallet-update) https://github.com/lightninglabs/neutrino/pull/209
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19:59 < Hash> ;;tlast
19:59 <@gribble> 19153.54
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20:52 < lnd-bot> [lnd] jalavosus opened pull request #4845: FundPsbt and EstimateFee improvements (master...estimate_fee) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4845
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22:14 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, it's more common than you'd think
22:14 < phantomcircuit> lots of people reading ridiculous guides
22:18 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, would be nice if the checksum was extended
22:18 < phantomcircuit> but doesn't a bunch of equipment rewrite it?
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23:25 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well any kind of nat stuff does, obviously.
23:26 < gmaxwell> Emcy: I managed to make a flatter projection of my library picture: https://files.catbox.moe/fsrr22.jpg
23:32 < pipirella> nice library!
23:32 < pipirella> I haven't set mine up yet
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 08 00:00:39 2020