--- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:42 2020
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00:11 < ossifrage> that is odd, 1 keypress, two events
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01:11 < gmaxwell> ossifrage: key down key up?
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01:57 < waxwing> Apparently Urbit "breached" yesterday, which all sounds very exciting: https://urbit.org/breach/
01:57 < Entitlement> waxwing - [ ~2020.12 Network Breach - Urbit ]
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02:08 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero merged pull request #4828: itest: fix error whitelist script (master...fix-log-check) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4828
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02:08 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/c95c4237031a...b3c1f2956030
02:08 < lnd-bot> lnd/master af0f39f Oliver Gugger: itest: fix log whitelist check
02:08 < lnd-bot> lnd/master a08d6c4 Oliver Gugger: itest: update and sort error whitelist
02:08 < lnd-bot> lnd/master b3c1f29 Oliver Gugger: Merge pull request #4828 from guggero/fix-log-check
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02:31 < ossifrage> gmaxwell, somehow backspace got double tapped even though I only pressed it once (and this is supposed to be a magic Cherry keyboard)
02:31 < ossifrage> First time I've seen it do that and I'd imagine that backspace isn't my most used key
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03:26 < lnd-bot> [lnd] halseth opened pull request #4851: sweeper: avoid deadlock on shutdown (master...sweeper-cnct-deadlock) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4851
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04:32 < RusAlex> hi mates. I found that in channel policies there is a flag disabled: true/false . I have a channel where `lncli describegraph` displays on some channels node1_policy or node2_policy this flag is set to true. I did not found the cli command to update this flag. May somebody explain what is this ?
04:33 < nsh> i routinely get a 'bug' where youtube is basically unusable because pressing the play button event is immediately replicated pausing the video again
04:34 < nsh> cba to diagnose it, just play youtube in vlc now
04:34 < nsh> much better experience by and large
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05:06 < Veggen> RusAlex: this is on inactive channels, yes?
05:06 < RusAlex> nope. it's on active channels
05:07 < Veggen> hmm. sure about that?
05:08 < RusAlex> yep let me show an example . I have open channel its id: 725958049805828096  . you can find the channel in describegraph output and notice that node2_policy disabled flag is set to true, but node1_policy disabled: false
05:09 < Veggen> open yes, but is it inactive?
05:09 < RusAlex> yes. lncli listchannels has active flag set true on this channelu
05:10 < RusAlex> and I even did few payments through this channel. so have both direction liquidity
05:10 < Veggen> is node1 in the policy you or your channel partner?
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05:11 < Veggen> or, the policy where it is dissbled.
05:11 < RusAlex> node2 where it's disabled its partner policy
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05:11 < RusAlex> I mean disabled:true is counterparty policy, not mine
05:12 < RusAlex> it's LNBig lnd-01 node . in channel information there is pubkey for node2
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05:37 < RusAlex> checked the source of tests and it it's written that only channels with both node policy disabled: true will be pruned. 
05:40 < Veggen> pruned, yes, but it won't be routed through.
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05:49 < RusAlex> only when both ? 
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06:06 < Veggen> RusAlex: believe so. Or, maybe it will be routed one way...
06:06 < Veggen> not quite sure, but the "disabled" flag signifies "don't use, it won't work now".
06:07 < Veggen> is there liquidity in both ends of that channel?
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06:19 < RusAlex> Veggen: yes. I opened the channel with whole liquidity at my end, then made payment through that channels. now both ends has liquidity
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06:57 < Emcy> ><dw1> i ate shrooms
06:57 < Emcy> lol
06:58 < queip> all sane bcashers are gone from IRC, yes
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07:07 < grubles> how does one breach urbit? :-)
07:10 < grubles> it appears "breach" is urbit-specific. sounds like it's similar to a hard fork or resetting a testnet.
07:10 < grubles> Do I need to perform a personal breach?
07:10 < grubles> No. A network breach subsumes all personal breaches, so please don’t also perform a personal breach.
07:10 < grubles> lol ok
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07:11 < Emcy> the hell is urbit
07:19 < Emcy> >The Urbit platform was conceived and first developed in 2002 by Curtis Yarvin.
07:19 < Emcy> lol
07:20 < Emcy> WP says its federated when im sure they mean feudal
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07:29 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero merged pull request #4849: etcd: increment port for embedded etcd server (master...etcd-port-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4849
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07:29 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/b3c1f2956030...304a25691f14
07:29 < lnd-bot> lnd/master c9ab713 Oliver Gugger: etcd: increment port for embedded etcd server
07:29 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 304a256 Oliver Gugger: Merge pull request #4849 from guggero/etcd-port-fix
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07:55 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero opened pull request #4852: GitHub: specify docker image platforms to enable ARM image builds (master...docker-arm) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4852
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08:46 < queip> <Emcy> b, cash, lol
08:46 < queip> <roger> what does he mean by that? b cash? be cash?  oh I know, be the change you want to see!  Be cash!
08:46 < queip>  *roger loses 99% of value
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08:51 < Emcy> they literally have tried the 'be cash' script flip before
08:52 < Emcy> https://be.cash lmao
08:52 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ be.cash - Be your own bank ]
08:54 < gmaxwell> well I wouldn't begrudge then calling themselves 'be cash'
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08:58 < grubles> no way. are they embracing bcash now?
08:59 < grubles> or is this one of those things like "you can't call it bcash because be.cash exists!"
08:59 < queip> apparently lack of the -e- is like hard R for others
09:08 < queip> .price bch btc
09:08 < deb0rah> binance 0.01450300 [+0.25%] | bittrex 0.01449909 [+0.36%] | southxchange 0.01443199 [-0.89%] | livecoin 0.01450202 [+1.27%] | hitbtc 0.01450200 [+0.29%] | graviex 0.01382905 [0.00%] | poloniex 0.01448593 [+0.09%] | kraken 0.01451000 [+0.42%] |
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10:23 < Hash> ;;tlast
10:23 <@gribble> 18320.53
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11:59 < LadyMallard> No Bitcoin talk in forks wtf
11:59 < LadyMallard> Go to your own silo
12:00 < LadyMallard> Don't get me wrong, bitcoin is a fork coin technically but still
12:00 < Emcy> what
12:01 < LadyMallard> I don't understand why this is difficult for people
12:01 < LadyMallard> There was one chain
12:01 < LadyMallard> And then boom there were two
12:02 < LadyMallard> Two prongs of a fork
12:03 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: You must realize that when you join a channel and then immediately tell its residents what they can and can't talk about the most likely outcome is that you're going to get punted, right?
12:04 < LadyMallard> Oh wow, you're here? <3 I just expected that your rules would be consistent about censored speech
12:05 < LadyMallard> If you can't talk forks (read alts) in #bitcoin, presumably, you can't talk Bitcoin in -forks
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12:06 < LadyMallard> I read your taproot/graftroot stuff. I enjoyed it. Well done
12:06 < nkuttler> bitcoin talk is fine in here
12:07 < gmaxwell> You appear to misunderstand the channel: This is the derpy fork dumping channel.  There haven't been any interesting forks lately, so it's mostly a laugh at derpy forks and chat about general bitcoin stuff channel. :)
12:08 < LadyMallard> I've misunderstood nothing. I just have a disposition that is genuinely opposed to the censorship of free speech.
12:09 < LadyMallard> If someone is acting in good faith in #bitcoin to discuss alts or forks or whatever, well, maybe we should just hear them out.
12:09 < LadyMallard> That's all.
12:10 < LadyMallard> There's this shotgun response to label any questions or comments related to other technologies as verboten. And that's not cool.
12:10 < nkuttler> most trolls and shills start with something that looks like they're acting with good faith
12:11 < nkuttler> nothing is verboten, there just is a topic. welcome to irc
12:11 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: Being able to establish topics in your spaces is an absolutely essential element of free speech as well.
12:12 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: otherwise, the ability for people to discuss topics of interest can be smashed by people-- malicious or well meaning-- that want to flood out the topic with other distractions.  That stuff should get its own space. Fortunately, irc lets anyone create their own channel at an instant.
12:13 < gmaxwell> and as nkuttler notes, there has historically been a lot of abuse.  That isn't to say anyone that goes offtopic is being abusive, of course, but its why tolerances can be pretty low.
12:13 < LadyMallard> Hm, I suppose you're right. Control of the agenda is pursuant to good order. I should consider that more. I think there must be some reasonable middle ground. Minority voices should still be heard, while not dominating the conversation.
12:13 < gmaxwell> One factor is that established participants enjoy a lot more leeway.
12:14 < queip> without moderation this is what happens in bitcoin space:
12:14 < queip> <sansGato> who eats shrooms on a wednesday mornin during sun rise? <sansGato> who does dat <sansGato> who does dat <sansGato> who does dat <dw1> 😒 <dw1> 😫 <dw1> 😴 <sansGato> HEY!~ <sansGato> stop dat ~ <sansGato> davidspa steventiger <sansGato> wb both of u <sansGato> BUT U MUST BE WARNED <sansGato> dw1 DOES NOT put up with e-WEAK connectiowls <sansGato> save yourself some trouble and go to settings while there is still hope <sansGato> st
12:14 < queip> please check your connection (go to settings its e-WEAK). <sansGato> dw1 BAN steven tiger <sansGato> his connectiowl is e-WEAK! <sansGato> eh-WUK! <sansGato> dw high <sansGato> dw smoke <sansGato> dw fly? <sansGato> dw dont <sansGato> dw why? <sansGato> dw toke <sansGato> dw please <sansGato> dw float <sansGato> dw why? <sansGato> dw hi <sansGato> :D
12:14 < queip> yes, this were 29 lines of total nonsense. 99% of talk in there is exactly this
12:15 < gmaxwell> Prohibition on altcoins in #bitcoin  goes back to geesh probably 2012 -- there are only so many times that the channel gets flooded out by the same boring breathless scammy-altcoin pumping (I'm not saying all altcoins are scammy, but the scammiest ones often make a nussance of themselves).
12:17 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: personally I'm more interested in chitchatting about fork trainwrecks than only talking about bitcoin stuff, -- part of the reason why I'm in here and not over there.
12:18 < LadyMallard> gmaxwell: what do you make of monero? A shitcoin or is there something there?
12:19 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: ::sigh:: It's got plusses and minuses. It actually does some interesting and useful stuff-- which is better than you can say about a lot of altcoins!
12:19 < Emcy> yeah this is where we laught at the misfortunes of assholes who have tried to tarpit bitcoin for so long, and also talk about bitcoin stuff
12:20 < gmaxwell> The launch was unfortunate, the people who maintain it today are unusually competent and reasonable in my expirence.  The design makes some tradeoffs which reasonable people could argue for or against.
12:20 < LadyMallard> Emcy: Looking at the userlist I can see it's a real who's who of bitcoin royalty
12:20 < gmaxwell> I have no idea what its long term value is relative to Bitcoin, though I thin it's underpriced relative to a number of other altcoins which have essentially no reason to exist.
12:20 < gmaxwell> think*
12:21 < Emcy> who me? im literally nobody lol
12:21 < LadyMallard> Sure, sounds reasonable to me. I'm surprised you didn't just flame me and claim all alts are shitcoins like most maximalists. Kudos to you for being open-minded
12:22 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: don't confuse twitter bitcoiners with all bitcoiners.
12:23 < Emcy> a big part of the reason monero gets treated differnetly by 'maximalists' is that the monero community isnt actively hostile to the bitcoin community
12:23 < Emcy> unlike >95% of alts
12:23 < belcher_> iv been treated pretty badly by many moneroers
12:23 < Emcy> hm why? in what context?
12:24 < belcher_> as someone who works on bitcoin privacy, i guess they see me as taking away their altcoin's unique selling point
12:24 < andytoshi> there is definitely a contingent of the monero community who are anti-bitcoin
12:24 < gmaxwell> There is plenty of space where people could make alternatives that have a justifyable basis.  The problems arise where altcoins (esp premined ones) are just a get rich scheme with no real purpose to exist-- and even that would be not worthy of much attention, except a lot of them promote themselves dishonestly by attacking bitcoin, spreading disinformation, harassment, etc.. which earns them a lot
12:24 < gmaxwell> of ire.
12:24 < andytoshi> and privacy tech in general seems to attract people who are poorly socialized, for some reason
12:24 < Emcy> well that sucks. maybe things have changed. do you think those ppl were representative of monero today belcher_ ?
12:25 < gmaxwell> My views are also shaped by the fact that my expirence with the monero 'community' is almost exclusively fluffypony and a few other tech people. Who I've always found to be reasonsable.
12:25 < belcher_> it doesnt suck its fine :) its just the internet
12:25 < andytoshi> Emcy: i don't think the assholes are representative of the monero community
12:25 < andytoshi> bitcoin also has a lot of assholes :)
12:25 < gmaxwell> It's sad to say that you can't even say that about the 'tech' people for most other altcoins.
12:25 < nsh> there is approximately on average one asshole per capita on earth
12:26 < belcher_> also during the scalability conflict lots of monero people were pushing big-block ideas, trying to stop segwit being added to bitcoin, etc at least the wider community not the developers
12:26 < nsh> some are just better at keeping their assholity to themselves
12:26 < belcher_> showing up on r/bitcoin with anti-segwit talking points
12:26 < belcher_> the same old zero-sum thinking, that bitcoin's loss will be monero's gain
12:26 < queip> belcher_: seems there is no reason to do it, maybe just btrashers that happened to also use monero
12:26 < gmaxwell> belcher_: to their credit, some of the monero developers e.g. fluffy went and actively argued with those people, at considerable personal expense.
12:27 < andytoshi> some monero people believe that privacy is the absolute most important thing, and that bitcoin is wrong to make pretty much any tradeoff against privacy, and that by being the biggest thing in the room it has a moral obligation to always favor privacy
12:27 < andytoshi> and that peopole like me, by working on bitcoin but not single-mindedly promoting privacy, are morally culpable for this situation
12:27 < andytoshi> which i actually think is a reasonable viewpoint. but i don't share it.
12:27 < gmaxwell> belcher_: as in fluffy got absolutely harassed for disagreeing with that stuff.
12:27 < belcher_> yep fair point gmaxwell
12:27 < andytoshi> but you can imagine how people who believe that would tend to be abrasive about it
12:28 < belcher_> digicash had even better privacy than monero, but its gone now :) decentralization is important as well as privacy
12:28 < belcher_> whats the point of privacy if it cant be defended
12:28 < andytoshi> right, and you also need a guaranteeness of soundness of your money supply
12:28 < andytoshi> and like, you can't deploy crypto where the research space is changing every other month, it would be literally impossible to QA that to the extent that bitcoin needs
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12:32 < Emcy> gmaxwell i think a lot of a coin communitys behaviour takes a cue from its developers or other principals, and like you said fluffy was always decent
12:32 < Emcy> there are always gonna be zero sum idiots in anything
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12:36 < LadyMallard> Monero also has a decidedly anti-ASIC bent, which further distinguishes it from Bitcoin.
12:36 < LadyMallard> Arguably monero is more decentralized than Bitcoin.
12:37 < belcher_> lots of people on r/monero think using monero full node wallets isnt important
12:37 < grubles> if you exclude all the hard forks maybe :-)
12:37 < Emcy> i would not argue that
12:37 < andytoshi> LadyMallard: being anti-asic means that monero has far more mining centralization pressure than bitcoin does
12:38 < Emcy> they have 'asic resistance' by hard forking whenever they feel like
12:38 < Emcy> thats not a good tradeoff imo
12:38 < Emcy> more like a case study of why asic resistance is folly imo
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12:39 < LadyMallard> I would tend to agree with you. I think they should have gone to SHA-3 and embraced the efficiencies of ASIC mining. I hope that one day the barriers to entry (of mining) may be lower and, in any case, miners have incentives not to wreck their golden goose.
12:39 < andytoshi> i mean, there is an argument that the successfully achieved "nobody will bother making an asic for this"
12:39 < andytoshi> whether this is a good thing ... well
12:40 < Emcy> hmm yeah that could have happened by now
12:40 < Emcy> but its a weird equilibrium, metastable at best imo
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12:42 < grubles> bitcoin twitter is pretty obnoxious. but that's partially because twitter is basically optimized for that kind of thing.
12:43 < belcher_> twitter seems to be where much of the activity has gone :\
12:43 < Emcy> a lot of it is normie filtering, which isnt a bad thing
12:44 < Emcy> but yeah they do go harder than necessary often, its a byproduct of twitters format
12:45 < grubles> it's worse now because altcoiners are starting to emulate the toxcitity
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12:46 < grubles> toxicity*
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12:47 < Emcy> i dont think you can really point to one part of twitter or the other and say this is especially toxic
12:47 < grubles> i can't say i didn't contribute to it but yeesh it's gotten old
12:47 < Emcy> the whole thing is radioactive waste
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12:49 < grubles> i had to stop and think after i saw someone half joking about dumpster diving so they could save money to buy btc
12:49 < grubles> or rather someone promoting that you do that
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12:51 < Emcy> yeah if you ironypost enough eventually it becomes unironic
12:51 < Emcy> thats how i got in the habit of saying bro too much :(
12:52 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: I think the 'anti-asic' ideas were initially worth exploring but history has not really gone too well for them.  So far *every* major "asic resistant" pow has ended up with asics within two years or so of launch, and those asics have been far more centeralized (e.g. single vendor, or even only private use)
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12:55 < buZz> gmaxwell: no asic for vertcoin yet :D
12:56 < gmaxwell> what they really end up accomplishing is making it more expensive design an asic. ... those systems even from day one are fortunate that amd/intel are lumbering beasts... because the marginal cost of their hign end chips is often just a few dollars-- so if they wanted to they could utterly monopolize any of those systems even without designing something new. (and worse, compeition with them is
12:56 < buZz> they just harkfork when one appears
12:56 < gmaxwell> locked up around the world by a thicket of patents)
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12:57 < gmaxwell> buZz: or when the next generation of insider made chips are ready and someone other than an insider gets one for the old thing?
12:57 < gmaxwell> :)
12:57 < buZz> sure
12:57 < buZz> thats always a risk for anything
12:58 < buZz> maybe ecdsa been hacked already and the insiders try to not abuse it too much
12:58 < gmaxwell> even for monero, a huge number of 7742s showed up on the surplus market a couple months after their shift to randomx, some absolutely came from companies that were mining.
12:58 < gmaxwell> buZz: thats not actually a compariable situation.
12:58 < buZz> bwa :)
12:59 < gmaxwell> buZz: security of ecdsa has been analyized for decades by the whole world. vs for mining, everyone knows you can make an asic for whatever. It's only a question if someone bothered or not.
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12:59 < buZz> ecdsa has, implementations still have new bugs :P
12:59 < grubles> are 7742s not good for randomx mining?
12:59 < buZz> its likely any asic will be based on existing code
13:00 < gmaxwell> grubles: they're basically what randomx is optimized for.
13:00 < grubles> huh so why get rid of them if you were mining?
13:00 < gmaxwell> grubles: because mining was a LOT more profitable the first couple weeks of it, then equalized out.
13:01 < grubles> oh ok i thought you were implying they switched to a secret ASIC or something
13:02 < gmaxwell> oh no, I was saying that I'm confident that people exploited the change for profit.  Whats impossible to know is if the people pushing the change (e.g. Howard Chu) were a part of that.
13:02 < buZz> just get flatfee power, hard to not run a profit on that :)
13:03 < gmaxwell> the whole switching process has easy ways to generate big returns out of mild corruption, -- which is IMO a compelling argument against it.
13:03 < grubles> an old trick was to buy some GPUs from best buy or wherever, mine as much as possible, then return them for a full refund at the 30 day mark
13:03 < grubles> maybe it was that
13:03 < gmaxwell> one with a lot of history in monero too-- e.g. the original POW was intentionally slowed down to give its authors an advantage.
13:03 < grubles> i can't say that would be as successful with $7k CPUs but who knows
13:04 < gmaxwell> (had obfscuated busyloops and shit like that)
13:04 < thrmo> grubles, in europe you can return cpus within 15 days
13:04 < gmaxwell> grubles: so-- high end amd and intel cpus are kind of a scam. In that they actually also sell in volume for a fraction of their retail price, if you know the right people.
13:05 < gmaxwell> companies like google and amazon end up with >60% discounts, the makers give out enormous numbers of free cpus to integrators and distributors.  It's like ticketmaster. :P
13:05 < grubles> oh that reminds me... apparently nvidia sold $170 million worth of GPUs straight to miners recently
13:06 < Emcy> but google buys them by the pallet
13:06 < grubles> also unrelated but i just remembered -- the creator of centos started another rhel clone called rocky linux
13:07 < gmaxwell> this is partially how I have so much computing power... those secondary greymarket channels (esp when a chip is no longer the latest generation, you can find places dumping $7000 cpus for just a coupe hundred bucks)
13:07 < grubles> dude i still have the $50 xeon engineering sample from a while back
13:07 < grubles> it's been rock solid
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13:08 < buZz> grubles: which one specifically?
13:08 < Emcy> but yeah the top retail cpus are expensive af, especially now since there is zero stock, even legitimate retailers are scalping them. thought im not sure if it can be called scalping or just normal market forces at this point since there iss *zero* stock
13:08 < buZz> and what motherboard did you end up using for that ES chip?
13:08 < gmaxwell> yeah, ES chips are usually fine, esp since the ones you find are usually ES2.
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13:08 < gmaxwell> ES2 chips mostly are made for integrators to do benchmarking and validation, they're usually identical to the full production chips.
13:09 < gmaxwell> and intel makes them by the millions.
13:09 < grubles> actually i'm questioning if it was an engineering sample or just some business dumping their decomissioned stuff
13:09 < buZz> grubles: there was no es markings on the chip?
13:09 < grubles> but it was an e5-2665. still usuable today. i use it in my VR gaming rig.
13:09 < buZz> not a v4?
13:09 < gmaxwell> ES are usually labled as such, though rarely they're not.
13:10 < grubles> i can't remember. it was years ago.
13:10 < buZz> e5-2665 is what, 2nd generation core?
13:10 < buZz> 8 cores?
13:10 < LadyMallard> I wish I knew some back-channels to get EPYC chips for a few hundred dollars.
13:10 < buZz> pre-haswell
13:10 < gmaxwell> E.g. I have some e7v4 stuff that is absolutely ES but not silkscreened as much.
13:10 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: stalk ebay.
13:10 < buZz> i've been looking to get a e5v4 system, even non-ES those chips are becoming quite affordable
13:11 < gmaxwell> I had some es quasi-7742s (they were lower clock than production) though I flip them for more than I paid and replaced with production chips.
13:11 < gmaxwell> er flipped.
13:11 < buZz> i just want a workstation with a core per browsertab and a dimm limit i wont hit within 10 years
13:11 < buZz> :P
13:12 < gmaxwell> buZz: you could join the e7v4 master race. https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/x10qbi-and-v3-v4-cpus-e-g-supermicro-sys-4048b-trft.27636/
13:12 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ X10QBI and v3/v4 cpus (e.g. supermicro sys-4048b-trft) | ServeTheHome Forums ]
13:12 < buZz> yeah x10 supermicro was what i was eyeing aswell
13:12 < buZz> but supposedly they arent that good if you get ES chips
13:12 < gmaxwell> X10QBI is not the x10 you're thinking of, I promise. :)
13:13 < gmaxwell> buZz: how does 96 dimms sound to you?
13:13 < buZz> :)
13:13 < buZz> 2tb max?
13:13  * buZz checks
13:13 < andytoshi> you can get 2tb with 8 dimms
13:13 < buZz> 12tb max :D
13:14 < gmaxwell> no, x10qbi is 12TB max but I think you need ones with mem1 1.2 or mem2 boards, which are less common on the surplus market.
13:14 < buZz> and doesnt support non-ecc ram :P boo
13:14 < buZz> hotrods need non-ecc
13:14 < gmaxwell> I actually think you can get the mem2 to do 24TB ram, it's just not officially supported.
13:14 < buZz> :)
13:15 < buZz> do you feel its likely, that our new computers 10 years from now, wont have >10TB ram?
13:15 < gmaxwell> (I wouldn't recommend x10qbi systems to people who pay for power... really epyc is the only choice now once power is a factor)
13:15 < buZz> i'm not completely convinced
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13:15 < buZz> well, arm is a option too
13:16 < buZz> now that maxwell bought cavium
13:16 < buZz> we'll soon see it applied in synology consumer nas's i bet
13:16 < Emcy> has epyc been out long enough to get them dirt cheap yet
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13:16 < buZz> soubt it
13:16 < buZz> doubt* :D
13:16 < gmaxwell> Emcy: there are engineering samples and commercial seconds on ebay from time to time, board compatiblity is mixed for the engineering samples.
13:17 < gmaxwell> they're not dirt cheap, but reasonable (as in, similar $/core/ghz as retail chips-- but chips with a lot more cores/wider memory)
13:18 < gmaxwell> well sometimes the es are dirt cheap. But I feel less confident telling anyone to use amd ES compared to intel.
13:18 < Emcy> why do companies dump perfectly good last get chips which they paid a fortune for
13:18 < gmaxwell> the AMD systems really just have shit troubleshooting. anything wrong? black screen. thats it.  All the intel server hardware has useful diagnostics.
13:18 < gmaxwell> Emcy: because its no ones job to care.
13:19 < Emcy> oh ok
13:19 < gmaxwell> I bet a lot of companies litterally throw out high end server hardware... the tech scrapper I've gotten a lot of stuff for usually pays scrap metal prices for last gen server hardware.
13:20 < Emcy> how do i get on that game...
13:20 < gmaxwell> like they'll go clear out an old datacenter, remove all the stuff... and pay 20% of what they can sell the ram for...  then everything else they can sell is just a bonus.
13:21 < gmaxwell> it's not that amazing a business because you do end up ending up paying to ship and trash a lot of stuff that won't sell. (esp since most of the people who are in that business are far from experts on the stuff they're moving)
13:21 < gmaxwell> plus selling shit on ebay fucking sucks.
13:23 < Emcy> yeah it does
13:23 < Emcy> i dont think ive sold on ebay since they stopped allowing the seller to leave bad feedback lol
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13:49 < grubles> i'm used to "black screen as a diagnostic"
13:49 < Emcy> speaking of ram, another lot of the ddr4 kit ive got nearly doubled in price since those stupid dual rank videos came out
13:49 < Emcy> god damn it
13:50 < Emcy> its not THAT much faster
13:50 < Emcy> god damn consoomers
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13:53 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht merged pull request #4843: build: check compilation of each commit (master...check-each-commit) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4843
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13:53 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/304a25691f14...745ea9b70ed9
13:53 < lnd-bot> lnd/master dce4d2a Conner Fromknecht: build: check compilation of each commit
13:53 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 745ea9b Conner Fromknecht: Merge pull request #4843 from cfromknecht/check-each-commit
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14:09 < Emcy> is solo mining viable on monero
14:10 < queip> Emcy: really doubt it
14:12 < Emcy> well let me put it another way, its home mining viable on monero
14:12 < Emcy> they want it to be...
14:13 < queip> maybe. but if(?) it's CPU then you are competing with bot farms with 0 electricity cost
14:14 < Emcy> yea thats the other bad thing about 'asic resistance'
14:14 < Emcy> bitcoin throughly shed all its botnet mining years and years ago
14:16 < Emcy> right now im doing 2 radeons + CPU folding covid protiens, but the cpu hardly gets any projects related to covid
14:16 < Emcy> so i might try something else fun
14:17 < Emcy> they still get ~16tf out of me all winter, so i think its fine...
14:18 < queip> these patents will not compute themselves
14:18 < Emcy> no i made sure the results are all open science
14:18 < queip> they are?
14:19 < Emcy> https://covid.postera.ai/covid its all here
14:19 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ PostEra | COVID-19 ]
14:19 < Emcy> you could even manually design a protein and submit it
14:21 < gmaxwell> 20:42 < grubles> bitcoin twitter is pretty obnoxious. but that's partially because twitter is basically optimized for that kind of thing.
14:21 < gmaxwell> yeah, twitter is by design toxic.
14:22 < gmaxwell> You get far more attention on twitter by being toxic than any other activity.
14:22 < LyzaL> my 3900x does about 0.012 XMR per day right now Emcy
14:22 < gmaxwell> Other platforms, like reddit, have some related issues but twitter seems to make every decision in a way that maximizes toxicity.
14:22 < LadyMallard> Andrew Polestra is a very nice person. When asked, he didn't shy away from the rumours that Blockstream pays its employees in child blood.
14:23 < LadyMallard> He just faced it head-on. I can respect that.
14:23 < gmaxwell> Is child blood a euphemism for bitcoin now, post "Babies are dying" ver?
14:24 < LadyMallard> I wish I got paid in bitcoin for my work.
14:25 -!- dethos [~dethos@95.172.177.165] has joined #lnd
14:25 < gmaxwell> LadyMallard: maybe blockstream is hiring?  in the past at least, blockstream didn't just pay in bitcoin.  It pre-purchased 20% of your next 5 years pay in BTC at hire time and then paid it out to you monthly after the first year you worked there.
14:26 < queip> imagine if they did same but used 'the real bitcoin'
14:26 < LadyMallard> That's quite a gambit isn't it? Suppose someone started working for them in early-Dec 2018.
14:27 < queip> but hay this dollars saved add up
14:27 < gmaxwell> queip: well thats also why that program was limited to 20% of your pay.
14:27 < queip> if I invest remaining 80% in btc, can I sleep and shave there?
14:27 < Emcy> LyzaL thx
14:27 < Emcy> .price xmr usd
14:27 < deb0rah> hitbtc 133.57560000 [-0.21%] | kraken 133.66000000 [-0.16%] | southxchange 132.15937400 [-4.52%] |
14:28 < Emcy> whoa not bad
14:29 < LyzaL> yeah it's not exactly profitable especially if you're uying dedicated mining hardware, but if you own or would use the hardware for something else, I think it can be a viable way to utilize otherwise wasted CPU cycles
14:29 < LyzaL> so like, I just do it on my desktop and my server and media PC
14:29 < Emcy> wait i got the decimal point wrong lol
14:30 < LyzaL> haha yeah it's like $1.40 USD
14:30 < Emcy> its ofsetting my heating already so
14:30 < LyzaL> yeah during the winter it's basically free because, like u said it offsets heating :)
14:31 < queip> normal people buy radiators
14:31 < gmaxwell> it was briefly pretty profitable after they switched to randomx but now I think it's only attractive if your electricity is functionally free.
14:31 < gmaxwell> (e.g. you're otherwise heated by electricity and not a heat pump)
14:31 < Emcy> im cooking on gas over here
14:32 < Emcy> oh well, perhaps monero specifically has utility value beyond is raw price
14:32 < Emcy> i guess if it did, it would just be priced in
14:35 < gmaxwell> yeah, I dunno. we sat on a bit of monero that was gifted to me for a couple years on the basis of getting rid of it took work and maybe it would be useful... but eventually got rid of it.
14:36 < Emcy> well maybe id do a little bit of seti@home again, then, but.....you know
14:37 < gmaxwell> if I was electrically heating and had computers in the house I'd probably mine monero. $1 a day is better than $0.
14:39 < Emcy> its 1 completely anonymous quarter pounder with bacon meal, make that a large, per week
14:39 < Emcy> nothing to sniff at
14:44 < grubles> spacex launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-BkkrRg-o
14:45 < andytoshi> (in 15 seconds)
14:46 < Emcy> what its so slow
14:47 < andytoshi> it's going straight up for quite a while
14:47 < gmaxwell> I like the fact that the downlink audio is clearly using opus, you can tell by the sound of the loss concealment.
14:47 < Emcy> oh fuck an engine broke
14:47 < grubles> uh oh
14:47 < andytoshi> yeah hmmm
14:47 < gmaxwell> is one engine supposted to be out?
14:48 < Emcy> wuh its not going up anymore
14:48 < grubles> it is a "high-altitude" test
14:48 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: it got all spurty then a bunch of the engine compartment caught fire but then it went out
14:48 < Emcy> yeah it was on fire
14:48 < gmaxwell> two out
14:49 < Emcy> fuuuuuck
14:49 < andytoshi> i think it's still going up
14:49 < andytoshi> mm now i don't think so
14:49 < gmaxwell> I guess thats tracer smoke?
14:49 < Emcy> its just sitting there
14:49 < grubles> maybe they want it to hover?
14:50 < gmaxwell> all out?
14:50 < Emcy> fins changed angle
14:50 < grubles> you could see the RCS firing
14:50 < gmaxwell> the telescope they are tracking this with is amazing.
14:50 < Emcy> now its gliding wtf
14:50 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: was just thinking that
14:51 < gmaxwell> I don't get how this thing is stable.
14:51 < gmaxwell> it's a flying brick
14:51 < grubles> camera views look like interstellar
14:51 < Emcy> "for a brick he flew pretty good"
14:51 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: do you think there is some electronic stabilization going on with the fins
14:52 < andytoshi> like would you expect it to be rolling right now
14:52 < andytoshi> tumbling*
14:52 < andytoshi> oh it's back
14:52 < andytoshi> whoa
14:52 < Emcy> oh noooooooooo
14:52 < gmaxwell> OWHAO
14:52 < grubles> lol woah awesome
14:52 < andytoshi> holy shit
14:52 < Emcy> kaboomed
14:52 < Emcy> lmao
14:52 < gmaxwell> when this started I was going to say that I'd be more excited to watch if more crashed.
14:52 < gmaxwell> they gotta learn from nascar.
14:53 < andytoshi> where did it go
14:53 < andytoshi> oh it's on its side
14:53 < Emcy> it warped into subspace
14:53 < grubles> that was awesome
14:53 < Emcy> "nice work team"
14:53 < andytoshi> lol
14:54 < gmaxwell> well it almost landed.
14:54 < Emcy> it was pointing the right way when it went splat, thats progress
14:54 < Emcy> it really is in fact
14:54 < grubles> "awesome test" as the camera shows a crater
14:54 < andytoshi> i wonder if all they needed was those engines to have not failed
14:55 < gmaxwell> part of the test was a 'landing flip', which I suspect failed.
14:55 < gmaxwell> looks like the engines didn't make it up in time.
14:59 < grubles> looked like 2 of them did
14:59 < andytoshi> i wonder what a "landing flip maneuver" was gonna be
14:59 < andytoshi> like a tony hawk trick
15:01 < Emcy> tried to hard to keep the multiplier up and wiped it out
15:01 < andytoshi> lolol
15:01 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I assume it was how it uprighted itself seconds before landing.
15:01 < gmaxwell> 'landing'
15:02 < andytoshi> yeah, that was also my guess .. which did look like a success. i imagine they just were expecting to have 3x the engine power that they actually did when they were slowing down
15:02 < andytoshi> what an explosion
15:02 < Emcy> it didnt look like it hit htat hard
15:07 < gmaxwell> I dunno I mean, it if you dropped it from 10 feet up you'd expect it to break when it hit the ground... and it looked like it was going about that fast to me. :P
15:08 < Emcy> no i mean it didnt vapourise on impact
15:08 < Emcy> obviously nearly any extra delta is going to break it
15:10 < Emcy> i saw a video on reddit about how they form the fuel tank bulkheads in the strongest and lightest shape possible [a sphere]
15:11 < Emcy> they weld a bunch of panels together so that it looks like a giant DnD dice, then they set of a precise explosion inside it
15:11 < Emcy> boom, sphere
15:11 < buZz> Emcy: hehe i got some bitcoin-y DnD dice's
15:12 < buZz> 16 sided hexadecimal dice,
15:12 < buZz> rolling the pair 16 times makes a new private key :P
15:12 < Emcy> i wonder if anyone sells loaded crypto wallet seed dice
15:12 < buZz> why would they?
15:12 < andytoshi> you'd have to load them so hard to make a practical attack
15:12 < Emcy> to steal peoples money ofc
15:13 < LadyMallard> I think my sense of smell may actually be returning
15:13 < LadyMallard> Satoshi has smiled on me
15:13 < Emcy> andytoshi would you? the black magic and dark incantations i see people apparently do to preserve their entropy while theyre coming up with seed words
15:14 < buZz> Emcy: oh, weighted, not loaded
15:14 < andytoshi> honestly the black magic and incantations are more for fun than anything realistic
15:14 < Emcy> surely casino grade loading of dice is enough to destroy a lot of your entropy
15:14 < buZz> loaded in regards to private key to me means 'put money on'
15:14 < buZz> i still want to measure the randomness of the 16sided dice i print
15:15 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's an interesting question if you could load dice enough to be insecure but not obvious. I suspect no, because they still have to return at least 1/4 of their faces or they'll be obvious, and a permutation of those values will still have high-ish entropy.
15:15 < buZz> and maybe adjust the model a bit to be more random
15:15 < andytoshi> buZz: so, 16 sides are only 4 bits ... if you roll those 16 times you get 64 bits of entropy
15:15 < buZz> andytoshi: a pair of 16sided dice, yeah
15:15 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/EngineeringPorn/comments/k66mmg/changing_to_a_sphere_with_explosives_loud_sound/ the fuel tank video btw
15:15 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Changing to a sphere with explosives. Loud Sound : EngineeringPorn ]
15:15 < andytoshi> in which case you're already screwed even if you don't bias them at all
15:15 < buZz> to roll 1 byte
15:15 < andytoshi> oh, you roll a pair of them, ok
15:16 < buZz> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1196872
15:16 < Entitlement> buZz - [ Hexadecimal dice with antiwarping-wall by buZztiaan - Thingiverse ]
15:16 < buZz> yeah
15:16 < andytoshi> so, if they're unbiased you've got 128 bits of entropy
15:16 < buZz> i got two of em printed out
15:16 < buZz> but never measured randomness
15:16 < andytoshi> i imagine even to get that below 80 bits, which is still not practical to attack (though it might be if a million people are using them)
15:16 < andytoshi> i think you'd wind up really obviously biasing them
15:17 < andytoshi> now ... if you put some PGA golf ball tech in there to make them land on a side seeded by an HMAC or something
15:17 < andytoshi> maybe you could get somewhere :P
15:18 < Emcy> whats 'obviously' though
15:18 < buZz> :P
15:18 < Emcy> are people who use dice to initiate wallet known to actually check the dice
15:18 < buZz> its easy to model voids into those dice
15:18 < buZz> to make em very much lighter on some sides
15:18 < andytoshi> Emcy: if i was rolling one of those at it was coming up with numbers that were too low, or even, super often, i'd probably suspect them
15:19 < gmaxwell> Emcy: I don't understand why those aren't just hydroformed!
15:19 < andytoshi> Emcy: and like, even if you made them come up even *every time* you've still only taken away 32 bits of entropy
15:19 < buZz> gmaxwell: i bet explosions are cheaper
15:19 < Emcy> gmaxwell i be thte explosion anneals the welds too or something
15:20 < gmaxwell> if you want to anneal it you can put it in an oven...
15:20 < Emcy> actually explosive welding is a thing too, its used to bond dissimilar metal flat plates i think
15:20 < gmaxwell> buZz: yeah, I guess if they're only making a few???
15:20 < andytoshi> Emcy: to be clear, i am still an advocate for the theatrics ... go into a faraday cage with a white noise generator while you roll the dice, and copy their values onto three kinds of paper which you later burn etc
15:21 < buZz> gmaxwell: i bet even 10000 explosions are cheaper than 10000x hydroforming
15:21 < Emcy> sure
15:21 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: flash paper, just to be sure.
15:21 < buZz> hydroforming to me, feels like a better suitable one-off technique
15:21 < Emcy> write the number in lemon juice
15:21 < buZz> like custom exhausts etc
15:22 < Emcy> spin around 3 times on the spot while pronouncing cthulus name perfectly with no hesitation
15:22 < gmaxwell> damn I really want a room made out of a metal sphere.
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15:24 < Emcy> anyway i bet extremely percussive forces can alter crystalline structure in ways that just heating dont etc
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15:25 < Emcy> or maybe they just do it because blowing things up for a living is fun, and someone else is paying for it so why not
15:26 < andytoshi> ~
15:26 < andytoshi> ops
15:26 < andytoshi> oops
15:26 < buZz> ooops
15:27 < andytoshi> i also wonder in what ways is it possible to bias dice
15:28 < gmaxwell> lol "The fuel flow must have dropped, leading to oxygen-rich, and then engine-rich combustion."
15:28 < andytoshi> and how effectively you could bias a 16-sided dice without making them really obvious (like, you set them down and they roll over on their own)
15:28 < andytoshi> lol engine-rich
15:28 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: dice can be biased though the bias always preserves at least one bit, I believe (because the opposite of the bias is also preferred)
15:29 < Emcy> andytoshi a subtle way....make one side the die slightly more frictive than the others
15:29 < Emcy> perhaps?
15:29 < Emcy> take into account the momentum of actually throwing the dice
15:29 < andytoshi> Emcy: sure but i'll bet you lose well under a bit of entropy per roll doing that
15:30 < andytoshi> i'll bet you'd have more success re-selling dice with bad instructions "roll them 3 times and average them"
15:30 < Emcy> combine it with nearly imperceptible weighting
15:30 < gmaxwell> engine rich reminds me,  I watched the HBO Chernobyl at gred sander's recommendation (it was some bitcoin meme image).  Technical accuracy was so/so perhaps as much they could do for the audience/format,  apparently a lot of the politics/characterizations were fictionalized... but it was riveting and if you feel like watching a lot of people die gruesomly, I would recommend it.
15:31 < Emcy> yeah but i mean people already sell hardware wallets with seed words provided lol, so that would be hte way to go
15:32 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: maybe someone could make dice that weren't memoryless with a little machine inside that could move a weight based on the last throw.
15:32 < Emcy> i guess the scanerio here is youre trying to reduce entropy enough to crack a wallet with say a billion dollars in btc in it, set up by a sophisticated mark who uses dice rolls to initiate a wallet etc
15:32 < Emcy> itll still take you megawatt hours to crack, but thats better than say the total output of a galaxy of stars
15:33 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: or even better, with numbers 'written' on the surface using a kind of eink that can electronically rotate the numbers the moment it lands.
15:33 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: ooo
15:33 < andytoshi> that would work well in a movie plot :P
15:34 < gmaxwell> an electronically loaded dice might even pass some tests, its weight could be extremely isotropic.
15:34 < gmaxwell> and it could give cryptographically pseudorandom numbers.
15:35 < Emcy> powered by a peizo?
15:35 < gmaxwell> I was thinking that too, but thats getting a little unrealistic, the eink screens take a fair amount of power to change.
15:36 < gmaxwell> and presumably if you built on that had to look like printing on the surface of real dice that would constrain them even more.
15:36 < gmaxwell> but the internal volume could be mostly a lithium primary cell.
15:37 < Emcy> what about a unpowered shifting weight inside on a special gimbal, structured such that it simply shifts along a known pattern when shaken
15:38 < Emcy> like an internal puzzle box where you know the solution, and it manifests on the outside in the number probabilities
15:38 < andytoshi> i think that if such a thing were actually unpowered, and was not "just bias the weight", that it could be used for perpetual motion
15:38 < andytoshi> i guess not, it's taking energy from the environment, and it's not even necessarily computing in a useful sense
15:38 < Emcy> well then screw stealing bitcoins, im already rich
15:39 < Emcy> andytoshi i mean just like a weight inside that just flops around on a predetermined axis for each throw
15:40 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's just the reverse of a cellphone vibrator thing.
15:40 < gmaxwell> it absorbs some shock through internal rearrangement.
15:43 < Emcy> > if you feel like watching a lot of people die gruesomly, I would recommend it.
15:43 < gmaxwell> digital dice would make for a good movie/book plot because they could glitch when something unexpected happens.
15:43 < Emcy> sold
15:44 < gmaxwell> Emcy: heh.
15:44 < Emcy> reminds me that i should play STALKER
15:44 < grubles> you play metro yet?
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15:45 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht merged pull request #4842: mod: update to btcwallet master (master...update-btcwallet-dep) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4842
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15:45 < lnd-bot> [lnd] cfromknecht pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/745ea9b70ed9...6152d013b9e8
15:45 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 96118c7 Conner Fromknecht: dep: update to btcwallet master
15:45 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 6152d01 Conner Fromknecht: Merge pull request #4842 from cfromknecht/update-btcwallet-dep
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15:45 < Emcy> the first one yes
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15:45 < Emcy> amazing for a videogame based on a book, that doesnt happen very often
15:45 < grubles> the first one is the best IMO
15:46 < Emcy> many such cases
15:48 < Emcy> https://i.imgur.com/1lDjp.jpg such is life in the zone comrade
15:48 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1440 x 900) ]
15:50 < gmaxwell> damn transporter accidents.
15:58 -!- LadyMallard was kicked from #bitcoin-forks by gribble [kicked]
16:01 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1336808486022258688
16:02 < Emcy> >Fuel header tank pressure was low during landing burn, causing touchdown velocity to be high & RUD
16:02 < Emcy> is it not pumped
16:04 < gmaxwell> anyone know why LadyMallard was punted?  I assumed it would eventually reveal itself to be more of a troll but it had seemed mostly well behaved so far.
16:06  * andytoshi should turn join/part back on
16:08  * grubles shrugs
16:09 < gmaxwell> to be clear, that wasn't a complaint, I was just wondering if there was context I missed.
16:10 < Emcy> probably just 'sam' again
16:11 < gmaxwell> it's kind of a bummer, talking to skeptics is fun ... when they're not just trolls that can never be convinced because they don't believe anything they're just trying to stir shit.
16:12 < Emcy> good faith on the internet, you say
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16:22 < grubles> omg i figured out why my talos wouldnt boot the freebsd install media
16:22 < grubles> you apparently can't boot it if you have a monitor plugged in
16:23 < grubles> or rather it boots (?) but doesn't output anything over serial or over vga
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16:40 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/ap-BkkrRg-o?t=6886
16:40 < Emcy> did you guys notice the rocket went as green as a firework just before
16:44 < gmaxwell> Emcy: that was when it when it transistioned from oxygen rich to engine rich combustion.
16:44 < Emcy> heh
16:48 < midnight> lol
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16:48 < midnight> Spectacular explosion..
16:48 < midnight> ""AWESOME TEST. CONGRATS STARSHIP TEAM!"" what?
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16:51 < Emcy> they blow them up now so that they dont blow them up later
16:51 < Emcy> its science
16:51 < midnight> was it clear that they intended to blow this one up?
16:52 < Emcy> no
16:52 < Emcy> is spacex actually profitable yet
16:53 < gmaxwell> midnight: I think most of the objectives of the test passed.
16:53 < midnight> Still important human progress.
16:53 < gmaxwell> it just flubbed the landing.
16:53 < midnight> Always really inspiring to watch Americans do important things.
16:53 < gmaxwell> engines had fuel supply problems
16:53 < Emcy> its intereating how the engine bells are shrouded by a skirt of the vehicle
16:54 < Emcy> so stop wind shear interfering with the gimbals/ripping the engines off i bet
16:55 < midnight> I saw the fins/aerofoils/whatever bending pretty good as it lay on its side. I wonder if that's on purpose too.
16:55 < gmaxwell> probably happened like this:
16:55 < gmaxwell> musk: We can't have the engines exposed like that?
16:55 < gmaxwell> Engineer: Why not?
16:56 < gmaxwell> musk: Because I bet peter thiel that I could make a dildo fly, god damnit, and it doesn't look like a dildo yet.
16:56 < Emcy> lol
16:57 < midnight> *Musk holds up an old copy of Analog.*
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17:02 < gmaxwell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oV4IVy8tvE&t=71
17:06 < midnight> I loved that show so much.
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17:07 < Emcy> complaining about a maserati
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17:09 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/qLUozPvKWvI?t=9 bitcoin nouveau riche
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17:59 < Emcy> >US federal government and 48 states file antitrust lawsuits against Facebook
17:59 < Emcy> now what is the politik of this given the present state of play
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18:11 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/RMac18/status/1336584280525348864
18:12 < Emcy> break them up? no, smash them on the floor then pummel the pieces with a 18 pound sledgehammer
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18:35 < lnd-bot> [neutrino] Roasbeef merged pull request #209: build: update btcd and btcwallet dependencies (master...btcd-btcwallet-update) https://github.com/lightninglabs/neutrino/pull/209
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18:35 < lnd-bot> [neutrino] Roasbeef pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightninglabs/neutrino/compare/884e01dd2d8e...e1978372d15e
18:35 < lnd-bot> neutrino/master 07d0679 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: build: update btcd and btcwallet dependencies
18:35 < lnd-bot> neutrino/master e197837 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: Merge pull request #209 from Roasbeef/btcd-btcwallet-update
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18:40 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef opened pull request #4854: build: update to addrv2 aware neutrino version (master...neutrino-addrv2) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4854
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18:41 < gmaxwell> https://twitter.com/WarrenDavidson/status/1336804544320327683
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18:43 < Emcy> ok this term of persuasion 'self-hosted' that has been injected into discourse is poison
18:43 < Emcy> someone did that for a reason
18:44 < Emcy> the reason is to otherise running nodes and holding keys
18:44 < gmaxwell> first place I see it coming up is from brian armstrong.
18:44 < Emcy> yeah....
18:45 < gmaxwell> This is the kind of fucked up situation that comes from businesses like coinbase having the lionshare of communications with regulators... it makes them see things through a paritcular lens.
18:45 < Emcy> well thats what i thought the 'bitcoin foundation' was going to be for, a long time ago
18:45 < Emcy> but look how that turned out
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18:48 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, bitcoin foundation was founded and operated by con artists
18:49 < phantomcircuit> so not surprising it didn't do anything useful
18:55 < grubles> i asked about the origin of the phrase and someone from coincenter said it came from a regulator
18:55 < queip> phantomcircuit: by whom? how to avoid that in future?
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18:57 < queip> Emcy: how should we call the normal node, the ones users (obviously) run themselves?
18:57 < queip> (or, well, wallet)
18:58 < andytoshi> i'm not convinced this term is particularly damaging ... but somehow i have used bitcoin for the last 9 years or so without ever needing it
18:58 < andytoshi> the word "wallet" has been perfectly sufficient
18:58 < queip> broad name - web-wallets and other custody
18:59 < andytoshi> i've never used the word "wallet" for that
18:59 < queip> users do
18:59 < andytoshi> well, those users are incorrect if they refer to it as their wallet
18:59 < andytoshi> as opposed to the exchange's wallet
19:02 < Emcy> andytoshi its most certainly a poison tipped piece of rhetoric dont doubt that
19:02 < Emcy> if you get to define the terms of the argument, youve nearly always won before you even get down to it
19:03 < grubles> something does seem off about it that i can't immediately put into words
19:03 < Emcy> in fact this effect is so powerful that much of hte time people just race to define terms and never even bother with substantive discourse
19:04 < grubles> like it's deliberately phrase to make it seem odd that you're holding your own btc
19:04 < grubles> phrased*
19:04 < Emcy> yes it casts the issue a certain light in your mind, but its hard to articulate exactly why
19:04 < andytoshi> Emcy: i am familiar with this, i do it all the time when talking in public about privacy tech
19:04 < Emcy> thats the meta
19:04 < queip> well if you want to look for traps, then "hosted" means you are some kind of administrator, providing a service.. with ToS. That should be regulated, you are a professional doing something special not just a dude with not-nonsense money
19:04 < andytoshi> but i'm not sure that "self-hosted wallet" is necessarily negative
19:05 < andytoshi> yeah maybe queip has a point there
19:05 < andytoshi> "hosted" is a bad word
19:05 < Emcy> its not, its just otherising. The negativity comes later i assume, this is just laying groundwork
19:06 < andytoshi> it's hard to otherise something that has "self" in it, in the US
19:06 < andytoshi> becasue there is such an individualistic culture
19:06 < queip> dunno who come up with the name, because "self-hosted" generally is a proper, normal, factual name for things... but yeah, usually for things that gov might like to regulate
19:07 < grubles> some people call them "unhosted" too
19:07 < queip> maybe we should then start reserving "wallet" for the situation where you run it on your own.  Starting with #bitcoin /topic
19:07 < grubles> https://www.coincenter.org/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-unhosted-wallets/
19:07 < Entitlement> grubles - [ How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Unhosted Wallets - Coin Center ]
19:07 < h2017> how seriously are we to take talk of this regulation, particulary wrt the idea of not being able to have one's own wallet?
19:08 < andytoshi> h2017: it's a nonsensical idea
19:08 < queip> phantomcircuit:  "Web wallets steal!" -> "Web 'wallets' are not yours, and they will steal"  or something?
19:08 < h2017> the covid lock down is a nonsensical idea but they got away with it
19:08 < Emcy> i mean seriously in that the government doesnt have to successfully stamp something out completely in order to make your life generally very difficult for you to partake
19:09 < h2017> being forced to wear a mask when i go out is a nonsensical idea
19:09 < Emcy> they dont even have to have a reasonable belief that they can stamp it out
19:09 < andytoshi> h2017: the word "host" is just wrong, am i "self-hosting" a wallet if i have a computer with keys on it? what about an unplugged hww? what about a piece of paper or a cryptosteel
19:09 < andytoshi> what if it's somebody else's key and it's encrypted so i can't access it
19:09 < andytoshi> what if i am running a watch-only wallet for someone? or providing a view to the blockchain?
19:09 < queip> if only people wouldn't be socialists, always looking for the Man to do everything for them, and always seeking his approval&permission. Mindset of freedom eroded
19:09 < andytoshi> this stuff isn't detectable
19:09 < andytoshi> and it's not even definable
19:10 < h2017> andytoshi i'm playing devil's advocate here. i don't think anything that draconian would happen all at once. could it happen gradually? Yes I think so
19:10 < Emcy> andytoshi do you see yourself sitting in a congressional evidence hearing explaining that though?
19:10 < andytoshi> Emcy: yes, unfortunately i am the kind of person who may wind up doing that some day :/
19:10 < Emcy> or anyone else here? you might have to
19:10 < Emcy> well not 'have', but it might end up being important if you did
19:11 < andytoshi> right, obvs i would not be compelled to testify
19:11 < queip> it will be awkward when they ask me wtf I do there and why my tourist visa expired
19:11 < Emcy> yes
19:11 < andytoshi> but if somebody asked me to then i would
19:11 < h2017> andytoshi obviously they can't stop you from having a wallet. they could hypothetically instroduce stiff penalties for using crypto which would of course not bother criminals
19:11 < andytoshi> h2017: right, that i can imagine. and then maybe the US loses its crypto industry to canada and israel, again
19:11 < andytoshi> but it's barely been 20 years since the last time they did that
19:11 < queip> canada being more free than usa? hmm
19:12 < queip> during RSA nonsense, didn't they lost to basically entire developed world
19:12 < andytoshi> queip: it's hard to compare the us and canada on a 1 dimensional "freedom" axis
19:12 < queip> andytoshi: of speed including encrypted/signed speech
19:12 < andytoshi> if you want to be left alone in the woods you can do that in canada, guaranteed, and there is no fbi who'll send people to your door
19:13 < andytoshi> there are also lots of laws related to e.g. pornography that the US is at risk of, but canada never has much of an appetite for (though i do remember harper and vic toews)
19:13 < queip> ok ignoring massive failure in form of compelled speech in Canada, are they particularly good at leaving e2e industry be?
19:13 < andytoshi> in general the failure modes of a parliamentary system seem less severe than those of the US lobbyist system
19:13 < andytoshi> queip: well, historically they were, after nixon made crypto a munition in the US
19:13 < Emcy> huh
19:14 < andytoshi> queip: the default stance for canada, on pretty much anything, is legislative apathy
19:14 < Emcy> we got parliament too [the mother of em in fact] and gots lots of lobbyist running around no problem
19:14 < h2017> total tax wedge in the states in 2002 or so was approx 30%, same as canada
19:14 < h2017> the idea that the states is a bastion of minimal government just isn't true
19:14 < h2017> i don't have data for 2020 btw that's why i chose 2002
19:14 < queip> andytoshi: spoiler: all big countries that concentrate power (because muh healthcare/welfare/*care), will... well, concentrate power, and take it away from people.  This is just one case of it, with regulating cryptos.
19:14 < h2017> since i saw a chart
19:15 < andytoshi> queip: canada is the 2nd largest country in the world (3rd? i can never remember if brazil has us beat..), but is so incredibly spread out
19:15 < h2017> i know that trump reduced taxes but it's not clear that he had any plan to reduce spending so i'm not sure that that won't be reversed
19:15 < andytoshi> that it basically cannot become the sort of overbearing police state you're concerned about
19:16 < andytoshi> (the RCMP situation notwithstanding)
19:16 < queip> andytoshi: in my book, countries with compelled speech already are
19:16 < queip> but that is not anyway important for BTC. Yeap crypto industry would move, somewhere
19:17 < queip> btw large exchange(s?) moved from Poland to Malta(afair), though simply for unclear tax regulations.  Gov now prepares more bad actions, though also tax related.
19:20 < andytoshi> queip: right, so canada definitely has compelled speech
19:20 < andytoshi> and in that sense the US is much freer
19:21 < andytoshi> but somehow I feel safer from the govt in canada, than i do in the US. in day to day life
19:21 < andytoshi> (although. if i e.g. wanted to make a magazine that complained about muslims, i wouldn't worry about it in the US, but in canada i'd expect big trouble)
19:23 < Emcy> compelling an individual to speak anything is akin to ablating their soul imo
19:23 < Emcy> their demarcated personhood
19:24 < Emcy> not even commenting of whether they necessarily believe the thing they are compelled to say or not
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19:55 < Emcy> https://i.redd.it/ay9x1s5hf6461.png looooool
19:55 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ png (1600 x 900) ]
19:56 < Emcy> ontop of everything else, the final seal is breached: now its an MLM
19:57 < queip> year of flippening/adoption
20:14 < midnight> \o/ yay I'm Canadian.
20:14 < midnight> Our regulators don't have time to fuck around with weird laws that make no sense.
20:15 < midnight> Except copyright, apparently.
20:15 < midnight> And the RCMP spying bill..
20:15 < midnight> And.. uh..
20:17 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, if you fit within the acceptable social norms the canadian government is more likely to leave you alone, if you don't they're much more likely to cause you trouble
20:17 < midnight> phantomcircuit: That's super not true.
20:18 < midnight> Getting basically any governmental assistance to accomplish almost anything is virtually impossible, unless whatever department you are talking to is staffed with people who are used to shaking people down.
20:19 < phantomcircuit> midnight, so i can run my muslim hate speech church from my militia compound in canada?
20:20 < midnight> Uh. Why are you defining a muslim hate speech church as merely "socially unacceptable" lol.
20:20 < gmaxwell> the term you want is custodial vs non-custodial wallets.
20:20 < phantomcircuit> what else would it be
20:20 < gmaxwell> saying selfhosted or unhosted makes it sound like 'hosted' is the norm.
20:20 < midnight> It's Canada. Hate speech has nothing to do with culture.
20:21 < phantomcircuit> midnight, all definitions of hate speech are inherently biased towards the local culture, saying that mao murdered millions with bad decisions is hate speech in china but perfectly normal most everywhere else
20:22 < midnight> It's literally a Canada-wide standard and applied virtually identically in every province and territory.
20:22 < midnight> And China is an autocracy that has nothing to do with the rule of law, so that's hardly analogous.
20:23 < midnight> In particular, "social norms" being majority norms, the people who aren't socially normal by that definition include significant populations of minorities in the northern territories and northern parts of the provinces.
20:24 < midnight> -- And the government basically completely leaves them alone to do whatever the heck they want to do, right up to the point where they start.. e.g. throwing acid in their daughters' faces, murdering each other with ceremonial knives, marrying illegally, or breaking the criminal code or the charter. :
20:24 < midnight> :)
20:24 < phantomcircuit> midnight, by local i mean canada as a local location
20:25 < midnight> In fact, trying to get local police presences to do *anything at all* in isolated communities is nearly impossible.
20:25  * queip calls Lahey with complains
20:26 < midnight> Canada is literally the second biggest country by landmass on the planet. The differences in culture between Newfoundland and Yukon are so vast that they literally can't even communicate with one another.
20:26 < h2017> newfoundland never should have joined
20:26 < h2017> confederation never should have happened too
20:26 < midnight> lol yah right.
20:26 < h2017> would have been a way freer country
20:27 < midnight> Except.. you know..  not really.
20:27 < h2017> no really
20:27 < h2017> imagine each province free to pursue it's own destiny
20:27 < queip> this
20:27 < h2017> imagine no equalisation payments between provinces
20:27 < midnight> You know there's only 38m people here right?
20:27 < phantomcircuit> midnight, by population canada is like very low on the list
20:28 < midnight> phantomcircuit: Yes, which I'm aware of, which is specifically one of the reasons why the application of a singular legal standard across the entire country means there isn't some local location here.
20:33 < phantomcircuit> midnight, i mean that canada can have a consistent view of what hate speech means because it's more or less one locale (minus quebec to a certain extent)
20:33 < midnight> Sure, let's just split up into tiny little fiefdoms where vast stretches of land in e.g. Nunavut are free to completely starve out on their own with zero federal input and responsibility. It couldn't have worked. PEI as its own province? There's only 150k living there right now. 13 provinces and territories that, at the time of confederation had virtually no population whatsoever, all printing
20:33 < midnight> their own money, staffing borders, duplicating defence forces, with multiple water disputes, minor territorial arguments. Sure..  a pleasant freedom-loving collection of totally irrelevant countries in North America.
20:34 < midnight> phantomcircuit: It's not though. The Eastern provinces east of quebec are basically *totally alien* to the central prairies, and to the western provinces. Alberta is basically a mini-Texas without the landmass and without the political will to actually do what Texas likes to.
20:35 < andytoshi> lol you can tell phantom lives in onterrible
20:35 < andytoshi> ;)
20:35 < midnight> The northern territories have mostly settled their landclaims or will soon, and many of the local governmental activities are carried on by local native bands.
20:36 < midnight> The second languages taught in schools in the northern prairies and the territories aren't even French. They teach local native dialects.
20:37 < midnight> andytoshi: It's really weird how much ontario has changed in even just the last 30 years.
20:38 < andytoshi> yeah. harper winning, and the decimation of manufacturing in north america
20:38 < andytoshi> dramatically reduced its position as being the "face of canada", and its relative wealth
20:38 < midnight> andytoshi: I *feel* like most of the harsh rageaholic freedom-lovers got the heck out of there and moved west.
20:38 < andytoshi> and also i think the mafia becoming increasingly irrelevant
20:39 < andytoshi> has had a big effect on canadian politics
20:39 < midnight> The mafia?
20:39 < andytoshi> ok, that's much more a quebec thing than ont
20:39 < andytoshi> but there is mafia in ottawa. or was
20:39 < midnight> Oh. Gang activities in Quebec.
20:39 < andytoshi> re freedom-lovers leaving ... that's a good point, ontario seems much more ndp-heavy than they used
20:39 < midnight> Ah, you mean criminal gang activity. I didn't realize the mafia was even part of that.
20:41 < andytoshi> yeah, i did mean criminal gang activity
20:41 < midnight> Ah, clearly I don't live in Montreal.
20:41 < andytoshi> and my understanding was that in quebec (and a little bit ottawa), and large parts of new england, this is the mafia
20:41 < andytoshi> or it was, rather
20:42 < andytoshi> and i have a fair bit of second-hand evidence from disparate places in that geographical area that this is so
20:42 < midnight> Yes, I see.
20:44 < Emcy> put that maple on me
20:44 < andytoshi> e.g. my dad was an "enterprise architect" for canada safeway through the 90s and 00s and one thing that happen on more than one occasion was that warehouse staff would be killed my mafia who were stealing meat to resell
20:44 < midnight> Biker gangs in my limited experience seem to have a much more significant presence overall but ..
20:45  * midnight shrugs.
20:45 < andytoshi> Emcy: lol maple syrup is also (used to be?) a heavily mob-infused industry
20:45 < andytoshi> midnight: right, i grew up in BC and in the west it seems that hells angels were the criminals
20:45 < andytoshi> and there was no mafia at all
20:45 < midnight> Aside from the occasional 4am pointless neighbourhood sweep with 100+ bikes tearng through quiet neighbourhoods, I don't really see them either.
20:45 < Emcy> andytoshi thats fucking adorable
20:45 < andytoshi> yeah, ditto, even in the 90s
20:46 < queip> Emcy: instructions unclear. I put Tru Coat (tm) on you instead
20:47 < queip> that'll be 300$
20:47 < midnight> andytoshi: Even in southern rural Ontario there were gang-like activities going on, but the locals were always *nutballs* about it. Like, straight up just "okay let's fight, f*ckers."
20:47 < andytoshi> amusingly ... this conversation started because somebody was talking about the US banning cryptocurrencies somehow, and i said "well the crypto industry will just go to canada like they did when nixon banned crypto last time"
20:48 < andytoshi> and then suddenly this channel turned out to be 80% canadiansn
20:48 < andytoshi> which is pretty telling
20:48 < andytoshi> midnight: whoaa
20:48 < midnight> Although I hear great stories from northern BC where they have rennaisance festivals in full plate and for some reason local biker gangs take exception.. and.. for some unknown reason the people in steel armour and midaeval weaponry tend to win.
20:48 < andytoshi> northern BC is a bit of a scary place to me
20:49 < midnight> ikr, I get a kick out of them
20:49 < Emcy> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9WC9rwUcAARtJO?format=jpg&name=360x360
20:49 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (300 x 168) ]
20:50 < midnight> If you drive up past Prince George, esp. through the Cassiar, you can basically drive as fast as you want in full-on race cars, and there are zero cops patrolling.
20:51 < midnight> Can't really do that in northern Ontario, the little mini rolling hills they just paved directly *on* instead of building up make any speed impossible. Unless they fixed that. But I doubt it.
20:52 < midnight> And New Brunswick? Forget it. You even *look* like you're going anything more than 5 clicks over, or you sit in the left lane too long, and you're gonzo.
20:52 < midnight> :-(
20:53 < midnight> No cops in PEI, but then.. there's no people either. LOL
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20:54 < andytoshi> lol
20:55 < andytoshi> never been north of vernon, in BC. i have driven through ontario and there are indeed cops everywhere
20:55 < andytoshi> my sis lived in new brunswick for a while (doing a sociology degree) but she didn't talk really about police presence
20:55 < midnight> (it's like they bury themselves next to the potatoes and just disappear for the winter, like they're fig trees or something)
20:55 < andytoshi> haha
20:56 < midnight> NB..  ah..  St. Thomas sociology program?
20:56 < midnight> That's the famous one.
20:56 < andytoshi> oh y'know it may have been
20:56 < andytoshi> that definitely sounds right
20:56 < midnight> Really good program.
20:56 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, lmao
20:56 < andytoshi> there was some prof there who liked her, and she had an opportunity to take  some sort of academic job
20:56 < midnight> nice
20:57 < andytoshi> which sounded like drudgery to me, and to her, but it was prestigious enough that she thought about it
20:58 < andytoshi> regarding canadian overrepresentation in cryptography ... i have a version of history in my head where nixon banned crypto, so somehow cryptographic knowledge just hopped over the line and that's why theo de raadt was canadian and that's why there are so many canadians in bitcoin
20:58 < midnight> The academic careers really do scream out for good people. People think it's just too boring, but I get the impression it doesn't have to be, just have to focus on something exciting for your research.
20:58 < andytoshi> and i'd be very interested to hear if any actual historian has tried to connect those dots
20:58 < midnight> lol
20:58 < midnight> I'd be very interested to hear if any historian at all has tried to study Bitcoin.
20:58 < andytoshi> there are definitely a good number of grad students who have
20:58 < midnight> Like.. real historian I mean. Not just randos writing sources memoirs.
20:59 < andytoshi> right ok :P
20:59 < midnight> Grad students count!
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20:59 < midnight> It's Canada after all.
20:59 < andytoshi> so, the ones i'm aware of have been sociologists rather than historians
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20:59  * midnight does balancing scales
20:59 < andytoshi> who've contacted me saying they're trying to figure out the bitcoin community and will i have a zoom call with them pls
21:00 < midnight> ehh, still trained specifically in observation.
21:00 < andytoshi> and there was at least one of them where i straight-faced talked about all the anonymous cryptographers in the industry and said that nobody knew who anybody else was and that's how all the tech was invented
21:00 < midnight> LOL
21:00 < midnight> they all just work together and when the identity goes dark we get sad but there's always new identities appearing.
21:01 < andytoshi> lol yep
21:01 < midnight> i get such a kick out of you guys.
21:02 < midnight> oo hey cyberpunk is playable now!
21:02 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, iono you've lived in most of the same places i have, it really seems like the cultural difference between the us and canada is mostly about the treatment of outliers, im pretty sure i could stand in the middle of the street in time square literally dressed as hitler yelling about jews and the worst that would happen from the police is asking what i was doing
21:02 < Emcy> its a bethesda tier shitstorm of bugs apparently
21:02 < phantomcircuit> (not that this is something i have any urge to do at all)
21:02 < midnight> Emcy: I WILL LET YOU KNOW, I got the preorder.
21:03 < Emcy> yes let me know
21:03 < Emcy> it might be different on playstation though
21:03 < Emcy> than pc
21:03 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: so, one thing is that the lower mainland is culturally very similar to the pacific northwest, and the populated parts of ontario are culturally similar to a lot of the rust belt and eastern US
21:03 < midnight> they better have a matrix element or I'm going to upend every table for the next ten weeks.
21:03 < Emcy> also people are saying its making their PC sweat balls trying to run it
21:03 < andytoshi> but there's really nothing like northern canada in the US
21:03 < andytoshi> or the maritimes
21:03 < andytoshi> well maine is maybe like the maritimes, a bit
21:03 < midnight> andytoshi: Maine I heard is a bit familiar.
21:03 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, i mean, alaska, but there's more people in alaska than northern canada by a large margin
21:04 < andytoshi> but maine, and the PNW for that matter, are really weird and not representative of the US
21:04 < andytoshi> ah that's true, i always forget about alaska
21:04 < midnight> And the Louisianna side of Texas has this weird familiarity to it, which I'm guessing is the Acadian stuff.
21:05 < andytoshi> yeah, i think so, i've been to new orleans and it definitely felt similar in some respects to french canada
21:05 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, i think that's largely true, that there's 1:1 parallels between regions in the us and canada, but things which are socially not accepted seem much more likely to be actually unlawful than in the us
21:05 < andytoshi> though very different in some respects
21:05 < midnight> andytoshi: We all would do well to just actively forget about Alaska.
21:05 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: yeah i think that's a fair statement
21:05 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, but i guess that's from someone who isn't scared of the police in the us either so
21:05 < midnight> phantomcircuit: Yeah that's true
21:05 < andytoshi> right..
21:05 < midnight> re: unlawful stuff in Canada.
21:05 < andytoshi> so, in canada if you are aboriginal, the police are (at best) completely apathetic toward you
21:06 < andytoshi> and that's part of canadian culture that isn't really talked about so much outside of canada
21:06 < midnight> andytoshi: totally apathetic. it's harrrrsh. The starlight tours are well-known but so, so rare.
21:06 < andytoshi> and which there isn't a good analogue in the US. even though the US definitely has its own history with native americans, and superficially there are similarites
21:06 < phantomcircuit> midnight, that was really my only point, that things in canada which aren't socially acceptable tend to just be illegal and in the us you just get some cop who tries to harass you into not doing it but cant actually stop you (not without losing their department a couple dozen grand at least)
21:07 < andytoshi> there also isn't anything like the RCMP in the US. the RCs are a federal police force where cops are randomly assigned to various cities far away from where they grew up or want to live, and where there are zero other police forces to keep them in check or argue their jurisdiction
21:07 < midnight> phantomcircuit: ah. Well, yeah, for things like hate speech I guess. I don't have any issue at all with stomping down on hate speech. Enough people flip out when it gets unreasonable that I'm (so far) confident it doesn't overreach.
21:08 < midnight> I don't know many people except ex-Americans who have an issue with arresting "kill all X" people shouting from the street corner.
21:08 < midnight> phantomcircuit: But I get what you mean. Yeah I'd agree with that.
21:09 < andytoshi> i think, americans have a general fear of goverment overreach snowballing into something insane, and canadians tend not to worry about this ... and i suspect this comes down to the canadian government having different forces keeping it in check
21:09 < phantomcircuit> midnight, personally i don't share your confidence in peoples ability to push back once it gets unreasonable, but i can see how you could believe that
21:09 < phantomcircuit> if that makes sense
21:10 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: so, like, i think most canadians would argue with your "once it gets unreasonable" hypothetical... like, they have almost a pathological inability to imagine the government meaningfully running over rights
21:11 < andytoshi> but i would also suggest that americans tend to pathologically imagine everything as a precursor to the government running over rights :)
21:11 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, genetic predisposition, everybody in canada didn't join the americans in revolting
21:11 < Emcy> hi im british
21:11 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, americans have lots of experience with overthrowing governments, just mostly not our own
21:12 < andytoshi> *cough*1812
21:12 < Emcy> the police investigate [physically] like >100,000 reported tweets a year or some shit
21:12 < Emcy> people wont push back, do not count on that
21:12 < andytoshi> Emcy: is this real? i read about it and it sounds unimaginable in either the US or canada
21:12 < andytoshi> although, i could imagine canadians culturally getting behind it...it's just that there's no goverment mechanism to actually do it
21:13 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, burning whitehouse v1 and then being forced to retreat well further north than the border previously was isn't exactly a military success
21:13 < Emcy> they also record 'non crime hate incidents', literally things that do not rise to the level of any criminal statute or common law but which still get recorded against your name, and often fuck people out of jobs etc
21:13 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: it's not exactly -not- a military success
21:13 < Emcy> so thats basically the police acting as an administrative punishment agency with no judicial involvement. Do not count on people ever pushing back
21:13 < Emcy> in fact from what i can tell, we like it
21:14 < andytoshi> the white house isn't made of wood anymore is it. canada did that
21:14 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, lmao
21:14 < phantomcircuit> i guess most of the british military loss was indigenous people so maybe that's a success in your colonizer eyes
21:15 < Emcy> and were also getting the fucking horrid 'informal' system of social orthodoxy enforcement which the US is shot through with, so its the worst of both worlds oftentimes
21:15 < andytoshi> Emcy: do you know if things are any different in ireland?
21:15 < Emcy> eire? i dont know
21:16 < andytoshi> what really mystifies me about the UK is that you guys aren't exactly a attractive place to live even without crap like this
21:16 < andytoshi> and it seems dublin has been trying hard to take advantage of brexit
21:16 < andytoshi> saying "we're like london but not fucking insane, come start a bank here"
21:17 < gmaxwell> yeah, I'm not aware of why anyone would want to live in the UK if they could pick their location.
21:17 < andytoshi> so when i see stuff in the news about the UK jailing people over tweets .. it makes me actively avoid the country, and i already didn't want to do business there
21:17 < Emcy> well scotland pretty much wants to distance itself from england to the point of actually seceding [will happen within 10 years imo], and theyre even worse for both forms of orthodoxy enforcement
21:17 < andytoshi> oh that's interesting, i don't know anything culturally about scotland
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21:17 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: I've been a hard pass on UK since they started doing mandatory nudie scans at heathrow.
21:17 < Emcy> https://news.yahoo.com/scottish-bill-criminalize-hate-speech-184012893.html
21:17 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Scottish Bill Would Criminalize ‘Hate Speech’ in Private Homes ]
21:18 < Emcy> scotland [more accurately the SNP] are fascist shits
21:18 < Emcy> they want so desperately to be an enlightened scandnavian country
21:18 < Emcy> theyre basically cargo culting it
21:18 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, afaict the only reason to live in london is that you're a money launderer
21:19 < gmaxwell> I'm confused by the reddit behavior here:  I did not get a ping for this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/k9w7i2/1_create_a_problem_block_constraints_2_market_a/gf7fm91/?context=3  but I got one for his ping two messages down.  Anyone know why?
21:19 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ PeopleRFuckingWeird comments on 1.- Create a problem (block constraints), 2.- Ma... ]
21:21 < Emcy> andytoshi https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/14/police-record-120000-non-crime-incidents-may-stop-accused-getting/
21:21 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Police record 120,000 'non-crime' hate incidents that may stop accused getting j... ]
21:21 < Emcy> this is a large part of why i dont have a twitter anymore. I like discussing controversial things
21:22 < gmaxwell> Emcy: But you discuss controversial things in here regularly.
21:22 < Emcy> and im often bombastic about it
21:22 < Emcy> gmaxwell scope difference
21:25 < andytoshi> Emcy: i'm curious what you mean by that
21:25 < andytoshi> "IRC is smaller than twitter" so the police don't care?
21:25 < andytoshi> or they don't have the technical means to notice?
21:25 < andytoshi> or just, #bitcoin-forks is smaller than twitter
21:25 < Emcy> a bit of both, but mostly the former
21:26 < Emcy> that stuff is 99% about twitter and facebook, pretty much
21:26 < andytoshi> also curious that AFAIK jk rowling is not facing any criminal charges for any of the controversial things she's said
21:26 < andytoshi> (or maybe she is?)
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21:27 < Emcy> i dont think she said anything that meets a criminal statue, but then as i showed you dont need to for the police to take food out of your kids mouths
21:27 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, regular police aren't gonna get complaints from karen about emcy's comments on irc
21:27 < Emcy> but in her case, i dont think she has to worry about finding a job
21:27 < Emcy> shes rich as fuck
21:27 < Emcy> thats another thing i dont like it. You already have to have independent means to really speak your heart on anything
21:27 < Emcy> and this shit makes that so much worse
21:28 < Emcy> exhibit A is @notch
21:28 < andytoshi> Emcy: wellll, this is somewhat generally true. in the US you can tweet politically incorrect things and it won't get you in trouble with the cops, or hurt your job at the local meat packing facility
21:28 < andytoshi> but it will prevent you taking a public-relations-facing job pretty much anywhere
21:29 < Emcy> untrue dude, times hace changed
21:29 < andytoshi> and hurt you in much of silicon valley
21:29 < queip> andytoshi: in USA people are showing up with bombs
21:29 < andytoshi> Emcy: maybe. i hope that the cancellation stuff has peaked.
21:29 < Emcy> the US has insane levels of 'community' orthodoxy enforcement
21:29 < queip> molotovs, bats. not to even mention "getting you fired"
21:29 < andytoshi> queip: lol i am actually living in the US right now
21:29 < andytoshi> and there are no bombs here
21:29 < Emcy> i showed gmaxwell the thing about that muni worker getting fired for cracking his knuckles a few weeks ago
21:29 < queip> andytoshi: all the fire on "protests" videos was NVIDIA AI?
21:30 < Emcy> yall are crazy
21:30 < andytoshi> queip: that's just downtown portland, it's always on fire
21:30 < Emcy> i dont want that shit over here
21:30 < queip> andytoshi: ok in that case "in some places in USA"
21:30 < queip> but certainly not just 1 city
21:31 < gmaxwell> Emcy: ... you're falling prey to twitter/media distortion man.
21:31 < andytoshi> queip: in seriousness, i was actually in portland when the riots first started here, and i was maybe 2km away from them, and i still had to hear about them from concerned friends texting me
21:31 < andytoshi> it was in multiple cities but in all cases it was confined to downtown cores, and just a block or two around city hall or particular areas
21:31 < Emcy> gmaxwell perhaps but i think it does happen more often than you think too
21:31 < gmaxwell> There are some 328 million people in the united staes (5x the UK btw),  yes here and there some random shit happens.
21:32 < gmaxwell> and sure, it's not good that any of it happens.
21:32 < andytoshi> and in some cities (e.g. portland) there has been a continual presence of this sort of violent political activism, which is dramatic enough to get in the news every year or two, but even people who live right next to it don't worry about it
21:32 < gmaxwell> But people get hit by air conditioners dropped out of tall building windows more often than a non-public-relations person gets twitter canceled.
21:32 < Emcy> i can pull a video of some shitstain 'influencer' following a woman in her car back to her house and filming her and threatening to cancel her on twitter and get her fired and ruin her entire life while calling her 'karen' repeatedly, to the point she breaks down sobbing
21:33 < Emcy> its gone way too far
21:33 < Emcy> literally torturing this woman in broad daylight
21:33 < gmaxwell> But just like if you brought up someone getting stabbe with a garden rake or whatever... I'd say that terrible and it shouldn't happen.  But some random shit here and there doesn't make it a factor in basically anyones life.
21:34 < queip> andytoshi: I do not think his is really the good mindset. I could probably live in soviet russia during some really bad KGB terror and be totally fine.  Even if 1 of myself was not in the 10,000 taken to gulag, it's still not a world I would consider "fine"
21:34 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/Ifz5V_FO1Xo turns out she did nothing, he just wanted to put her life in a woodchipper for clicks
21:35 < andytoshi> queip: that's still not the right scale for this kind of thing
21:35 < gmaxwell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpHiDsnqOSA
21:35 < andytoshi> if it were not the KGB, but instead some random local militia, that's a better analogy
21:35 < queip> andytoshi: how ever somewhere between 5 to 30% people are ok with this.  with terror, with violence.  that is a big concern even if only a handful people were directly hit
21:35 < queip> 5%
21:36 < andytoshi> 5% is an insanely high number
21:36 < gmaxwell> 5% of blowhard pundits on twitter.
21:36 < queip> so how many people in USA supports looting and general violence/terror from "peaceful protests" of 2020? order of magnitude?
21:37 < andytoshi> 1 in 100000 perhaps
21:37 < andytoshi> would tell you that they support looting, while sneaking liquor from their parents' cabinets
21:37 < andytoshi> and maybe 1 in 100 of those would ever actually do any political violence
21:37 < queip> how many support it if question is not worded in this way, of course, but has that result
21:37 < gmaxwell> what andytoshi says.
21:38 < gmaxwell> queip: well if phrased right you'd support it to.
21:38 < queip> gmaxwell: try me ;)
21:38 < gmaxwell> queip: Do you support using force to defend yourself from lift threatening violent oppression which is continually murdering your friends and family?
21:39 < Emcy> honestly i think its a fallacy to consider the entire bulk of any countries population when considering events like these
21:39 < queip> gmaxwell: direct self-defence - yes.  Some corporation/group claiming they will do it - well I have to check what they really are doing
21:39 < gmaxwell> doing something like that is the only way to get a non-negligible number of people to support the violence,  instead people more just deny that the violence is really a thing.
21:39 < Emcy> history has always turned on what low single digit amounts of a countries population do and say
21:40 < Emcy> everyone else just rides it out, accepts the outcome or GTFOs
21:40 < Emcy> they dont really 'count' for these purposes
21:41 < queip> btw the problem is that people support it as in "are for it".  not that they actively will become the pony-faced soliders of marxist revolution, that is indeed much tinier number  (at least until violence is too normalized...)
21:41 < Emcy> thus, while its true that more people get hit by cars than private people get brutally cancelled etc, they dont *need* any significant amount of people to be. All thats required is the general knowledge that it could happen to anyone, at any time.
21:42 < Emcy> knowledge that poor lady has, thats why shes having a panic attack just from having a phone pointed at her
21:42 < Emcy> make no mistake, if someone is putting a phone in your face in public for some perceived slight, theyre explicitly threatening the foundations of your life
21:42 < Emcy> thats the insane reality today
21:43 < queip> Emcy: how humanity can fix it
21:43 < Emcy> and its just a small facet of why social media is evil and was a huge mistkae
21:43 < queip> USA was supposed to be land of quite easy job migration, for  one
21:43 < Emcy> how do we put a genie back in a bottle? i dont know man
21:44 < Emcy> its a brave new world as the saying goes huh
21:44 < midnight> Emcy: argh it looks so good.
21:45 < Emcy> ?
21:45 < midnight> the game.
21:46 < midnight> It looks great. Music on point; chargen nice, totally electric. Definitely an adult game.
21:46 < midnight> lol
21:46 < Emcy> does it have hot cyborg women. is that allowed anymore
21:47 < midnight> so far nekkid full accuracy lol
21:47 < Emcy> noice
21:49 < Emcy> well the game seems to make game journalists very, very angry, so it must be good
21:50 < gmaxwell> what game?
21:50 < Emcy> cyberpunk 2077
21:52 < Emcy> midnight think its worth buying full price day 1?
21:52 < Emcy> i almost never ever buy full price
21:53 < Emcy> theyre super duper mad because theres a general lee skin you can unlock for your car
21:53 < Emcy> they even took the confed flag off it, but theyre still mad [over basically an orange car]
21:59 < gmaxwell> wait, they're upset about a dukes of hazzard reference??!
22:05 < Emcy> sure are
22:05 < Emcy> even though the flags are not present
22:05 < Emcy> just because its something from the south, i guess
22:05 < Emcy> a reminder that the american south exists
22:06 < Emcy> the thing theyre most upset about though is this https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Cyberpunk-2077-poster.png
22:07 < Emcy> no fucking joke, some of the reviews are literally one third to one half whining about this
22:07 < Emcy> good thing no one gives a good damn what the reviewers think anymore
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22:15 < Emcy> gmaxwell people love your bookshelves dude
22:15 < Emcy> you even found someone else who built a cantilevered setup
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22:21 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/bookshelf/comments/k6tlmc/found_this_adorable_book_shelf_on_a_walk_this/ this is magical
22:21 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Found this adorable book shelf on a walk this afternoon : bookshelf ]
22:22 < Emcy> i wish i lived somewhere this was socially possible
22:25 < gmaxwell> Emcy: those are normal around here (well that one is unusually cute, being in a tree and all)
22:26 < gmaxwell> I know of a least 3 within a 5 minute walk from my home.
22:27 < Emcy> not far from here [within eyesight actually] are the kind of places where if its not bolted down it goes missing
22:27 < Emcy> sometimes i see honesty boxes selling eggs or whatever out in the country on the backroads, always gives me feels
22:27 < gmaxwell> but will people steal the books at any great rate?
22:28 < gmaxwell> I mean-- people are supposted to take the books from them, also hopefully add different ones.
22:28 < Emcy> no theyll just destroy it
22:29 < gmaxwell> People might do a little better than you fear.
22:31 < gmaxwell> sometimes people act like shit because the people around them show them that they expect them to act like shit.
22:32 < Emcy> it is an unfortunate cycle
22:32 < gmaxwell> I'm sure the free libraries sometimes get smashed or emptied out, but their operators regard that as an anomaly, fix'em up, and continue on.
22:33 < Emcy> i never seen anything of the sort within any city actually
22:33 < Emcy> like a straight up unattended unmonitored honesty community facility
22:34 < Emcy> they must exist, i just havent seen them
22:35 < Emcy> but ive seen honesty boxes on country lanes
22:36 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think you underestimate the terribleness of some people in the uk
22:36 < gmaxwell> before these things were popular, people used to leave books in the light rail stations in san jose, with some note glued in the front that basically said feel free to take the book, feel free to return it... and the books just moved around the light rail network.
22:36 < Emcy> you know a joyrider in a stolen car from round here nearly landed the car ontop of my head once
22:36 < Emcy> and i mean on top
22:37 < gmaxwell> one of the things that also made me feel like I wanted to move to california long before I actually did.
22:37 < Emcy> like, from a height
22:37 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: nah. I don't think so.
22:37 < gmaxwell> Sure there are some terrible people, but most people, even loss class crass people will behave decently a lot of the time, at least in situations where they're not encouraged to act otherwise.
22:38 < gmaxwell> and really the terrible people are usually busy elsewhere being terrible to other people/things (often each other).
22:39 < gmaxwell> Emcy: maybe you should setup one of these things as an expirement with the expectation that it'll just get trashed.  You might be surprised.
22:39 < gmaxwell> Be the change you'd like to see in the world.
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22:39 < Emcy> gmaxwell a lot of good people live in the places with a high concentration of terrible people being terrible to each other
22:40 < gmaxwell> I expect that the odds are pretty good that a little outdoor library won't be terrible important to any of the people that might trash it.
22:40 < Emcy> well i could try it. But not this year or most of the next probably
22:40 < gmaxwell> or you could have one that is immune to being destroyed,  see the last image here: https://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/05/01/how-quirky-is-berkeley-rogue-little-free-libraries
22:40 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ How Quirky is Berkeley? Rogue little free libraries ]
22:41 < Emcy> also id actually be more worried about legal hassle from just doing something like that on my own volition, than anyone wrecking it
22:42 < gmaxwell> well man, you only live once.  If you got some legal annoyance it would make a good story.
22:43 < gmaxwell> but really ... what?  police are going to show up.. .. "Ello guvnor, can we sees yer library license?"  "My what?" "Yer license for your library out fronts"
22:43 < gmaxwell> at least in the US the worst you might get is some passive agressive note from code enforcement saying you can't have it and have to remove it.
22:43 < Emcy> i guess placing a simple box somewhere and putting some charity shop books in it doesnt have to be a big traceable event
22:44 < gmaxwell> right.
22:44 < gmaxwell> You could upgrade it if it works out.
22:44 < Emcy> banksy has gotten a pass for years and years for what is really graffiti
22:45 < gmaxwell> if there really are none around, and you start it off with some books there are good odds other people will maintain the collection.
22:47 < Emcy> i would be happy to be proven wrong about what i think
22:49 < gmaxwell> BBC library detector vans
22:50 < Emcy> lol
22:51 < Emcy> mics tuned to detect rustling pages and sounds of joy
22:52 < Emcy> one of the best things i ever saw was a police van with a big tall facial recognition 360 degree gimball camera on the top, trying to slowly drive under the canopy thing at the entrance to a hospital
22:53 < Emcy> and it was too tall and he bent the camera backwards until it was 45 degrees angle and bent the hell out of the roof of the van lol
22:53 < Emcy> and the copper got out and looked at it and said aw fuck
22:54 < gmaxwell> other shit we don't have here. (yes there has been some police facial detection stuff, but AFAIK nothing with huge 360 degree camera balls like google maps)
22:54 < Emcy> it could have been an ANPR van, but theyre even worse in many ways
22:55 < gmaxwell> yeah, anpr is more common but any I've seen have just been a book sized camera unit or two.
22:55 < gmaxwell> I agree anpr is worse privacy wise.
22:56 < Emcy> it looked similar to this https://wi-images.condecdn.net/image/vG1j7zKR09E/crop/1620/f/gettyimages-1027164458.jpg
22:56 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1620 x 1080) ]
22:57 < Emcy> quite a few forces have these vans now
22:57 < Emcy> its nice that he fucked up the roof of hte van good and proper, thats the expensive part
23:00 < gmaxwell> those eurovans look so weird to me as an american.
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23:01 < Emcy> we dont have the space for 18 wheelers
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23:12 < Emcy> midnight ED odyssey gameplay reveal today
23:12 < Emcy> if u care. im sure its on ps4 also
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23:19 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/Bpe7ULtkYbU
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 10 00:00:45 2020