--- Log opened Thu Dec 17 00:00:49 2020
00:06 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
00:22 < gmaxwell> midnight: belcher: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.03697.pdf  pretty interesting.
00:52 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@079-170-138-049-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
00:59 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:02 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lnd
01:09 < Emcy> ;;tlast
01:09 <@gribble> 23125.9
01:13 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:13 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:13 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd
01:28 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-96.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lnd
01:42 -!- DrWhax [~DrWhax@37.218.247.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
01:42 -!- RusAlex [~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:43 -!- RusAlex [~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex] has joined #lnd
01:43 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1339282943685038085
01:46 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
01:46 < midnight> so..  I guess the target to be worth more than we've ever been worth in our per-bitcoin gold-buying ability, the target is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 29065 or so USD..
01:46 < midnight> heh heh heh
01:46 < midnight> STILL AT LEAST ONE UNBROKEN ATH
01:52 < midnight> gmaxwell: HAH. The actual number of troll bastards is vanishingly tiny. Well that's about what we've seen around here. A small handful of users is responsible for thousands-- maybe tens of thousands of different nicknames across the decade I've been monitoring them.
01:52 < midnight> Just the same assholes over and over again.
01:55 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
01:55 < midnight> gmaxwell: God dammit: "However, we find that this negative outcome is prevented when defenders break echo-chambers and engage in direct
01:55 < midnight> heated conversations with attackers."
01:56 < midnight> :-C So going in there and wrecking the attackers does, in fact, have n observed protective effect in other communities.
01:56 < midnight> Brutal.
01:57 < midnight> jeeesus..  a fierce defence is more effective against colonization than isolating and ignoring the attackers?
01:58 < midnight> I AM DUBIOUS.
01:58 < midnight> Emcy: oculus, yeah. Oculus is awesome.
02:04 < Emcy> why is that surprising
02:05 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-94.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
02:05 < Emcy> you arrest your own values and history robustly instead of letting randoms overwrite it with theirs
02:05 < Emcy> assert*
02:05 < Emcy> bitcoiners should know all about that
02:05 < midnight> And apparently banning them isn't as effective as providing what I would assume is protective cover for the defending users who need defending.
02:07 < midnight> So, in other words, they are most responsive to a warrior population defending them.
02:07 < midnight> Emcy: The new Expanse season has gone partly back to hardcore human intrigue and it is AWESOME.
02:08 < Emcy> man i havent watched that since like s2
02:08 < Emcy> not to say its bad. its very good.
02:10 < midnight> They lost their way a little by focusing on the alien stuff a bit too much, turning it into an adventure through harrowing lands we don't care so much about. They're back now, it's excellent.
02:11 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
02:11 < Emcy> the what now
02:12 < midnight> Emcy: I'm most intrigued by well-modelled intelligence and cleverness. Not Sherlock holmes (which has a weird sort of "surprise it was the tiny speck of dust you didn't notice before and we didn't give you any time to think about anyway") style but actual motivations and people working each other out a little to understand what's going on.
02:15 < midnight> Other people visibly feeding information which turns into a pivotal decision-point, or historical events described in the story which have strong perturbations on future plot.
02:15 < midnight> Really like that. It's something a lot of shows basically totally and completely lack. But it's so easy to write it that way, it seems to me, that there's no excuse for it. So even more disappointing.
02:16 < Emcy> most shows like to have very compartmentalised episodes within the framework of some overarching theme or conceit, for pragmatic reasons
02:17 < Emcy> which doesnt lend itself amazingly well for world building
02:17 < midnight> gmaxwell: Thinking about it, I think a large part of the effectiveness described in that paper is Reddit-specific. Like..  you can't stop new users from joining without destroying your community, but new users can't really be discerned from old by moderators, since the admins are totally unhelpful in correlating users for their subreddit community.
02:17 < midnight> Emcy: No it sure doesn't.
02:17 < Emcy> sometimes shows have the balls to really make a connected narrative, but it increases the chance that they might fail if viewers drop out or even miss 1 espisode, which is what happened to Expanse the first time
02:17 < midnight> That DrWhax ^^ up there is a journo btw.
02:18 < Emcy> not many shows can run a fully connected narrative for years
02:18 < midnight> Emcy: Expanse was a failure because people couldn't rewind. But digital delivery has fixed that mostly, so even less of an excuse I would think.
02:18 < midnight> It was originally syfy wasn't it?
02:19 < Emcy> yes which is how its fine since amazon licked it up
02:19 < Emcy> picked*
02:19 < midnight> Don't watch cable anymore..
02:19 < midnight> no sense.
02:19 < midnight> Emcy, gmaxwell: DrWhax, up there, who had a ping time out is a journalist of some sort.
02:20 < Emcy> theres also a risk that you spend years building up a narrative that you just have no chance to wrap up in a way that does it all justice, then you end up with a game of thrones scenario....
02:20 < Emcy> only the best can wrap a continuous narrative show up properly, and sometimes you get a breaking bad....
02:20 < midnight> "Author gets mired in own narratives. Other authors stand carefully back and wait for explosion, making mild noises of sympathy."
02:21 < midnight> Emcy: I think there the viewpoint became too grand. Don't zoom out. Let the stuff happen in the background. :(
02:21 < Emcy> but anyway 50% of this trouble would go away if they stopped letting alex kurzman produce so many god damn shows
02:21 < midnight> Who's that now.
02:22 < midnight> Aw god, look at that huge long series of trainwrecks.
02:22 < gmaxwell> 09:56 < midnight> :-C So going in there and wrecking the attackers does, in fact, have n observed protective effect in other communities.
02:23 < gmaxwell> thats why I linked to it.
02:23 < midnight> Hey! That's one of the assholes that ruined Star Trek!
02:23 < gmaxwell> also notice the graphs ... e.g. multiple defenders being more successful
02:24 < midnight> gmaxwell: It seems maybe it might be an artifact of reddit's "can't close the door" policy. I wonder if it were applied to something like IRC, whether careful community isolation, or rabid freak-outs consuming screen space are more effective.
02:24 < gmaxwell> well most people won't engage in a debate where they're outnumbered.
02:24 < Emcy> gmaxwell i mean 'dont get surrounded' is good advice for a irl throwdown too
02:25 < midnight> Unless you have light sabers in each hand.
02:25 < midnight> Then it's: "Get surrounded as much as possible, and make big wide swings."
02:25 < gmaxwell> on reddit mods can remove disrupters.
02:25 < midnight> Yeah but they can just come back as socks.
02:25 < gmaxwell> midnight: thats what I'll tell people my reddit strategy was.
02:25 < midnight> LOL
02:26 < midnight> General Grievance
02:26 < midnight> "He frowns a lot, but it's frowns of love."
02:26 < Emcy> midnight what makes you say drwhax is a journo? what kind of journo
02:27 < midnight> Emcy: I've been looking a little closer at the user list in here to pick out Ye Olde Douchebag (you know the one), and I discovered him. Incidentally, there's a whole bunch of suddenly-new users from the monero community who don't talk very much but who only recently arrived.
02:28 < gmaxwell> we've just spent the last half hour watching memes on r/bitcoin on the tv.
02:28 < midnight> I'll guess there's a post somewhere which is rabidly consumed by monero and only monero people, which referenced this channel somehow, and they all kind of dogpiled in.
02:29 < midnight> gmaxwell: I saw a 3-d rendering of the $20,000 words being smashed through by rollercoaster-bitcoin-guy.
02:29 < midnight> There isn't enough cheerful-rollercoaster-bitcoin-guy.
02:30 < Emcy> gmaxwell god youre bored arnet you
02:30 < midnight> I like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/keopvf/bitcoin_right_now/
02:31 < Emcy> midnight whos he with?
02:31 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:31 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:32 < Emcy> nice i havent seen one of those for a while
02:32 < Emcy> ;;tlast
02:32 <@gribble> 22665.35
02:32 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@rrcs-98-6-232-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lnd
02:33 < midnight> Emcy: Uh. I found it before. Hang on.
02:34 < midnight> https://twitter.com/DrWhax
02:35 < Emcy> >The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), founded in 2006, is a consortium of investigative centers, media and journalists operating in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Central Asia and Central America. OCCRP is the only full-time investigative reporting organization that specializes in organized crime and corruption. It publishes its stories through local media and in English and Russian through its website. In 2017, NGO Advisor
02:35 < Emcy> ranked it 69th in the world in their annual list of the 500 best non-governmental organizations (NGO).
02:35 < Emcy> ok doesnt sound too bad
02:36 < midnight> Well. It blocks many VPN exit points and Tor.
02:37 < Emcy> ?
02:37 < midnight> The website.
02:37 < midnight> Appears to just plain block everything.
02:38 < midnight> And then there's shitty posts like this: https://twitter.com/OCCRP/status/1088437465969553409
02:39 < Emcy> yeah east europe/russia needs real journos, they havent got the luxury of being bloviating bluecheck assholes
02:40 < Emcy> midnight eehhhh idk, crims do try and use bitcoin and other coins dont they
02:40 < Emcy> its not as smart or private a thing to do as anything thinks though
02:40 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@079-170-137-126-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lnd
02:40 < midnight> Emcy: it's super unsuitable for it. They use banks and countries like Canada to do all their laundering.
02:41 < Emcy> i dont think you can really conceal wealth directly on bitcoin, as it is today, if youve been targetted for investigation by a competent authority. so more fool them
02:41 < Emcy> yes i would like more stories about how HSBC is a fucking mob front, than how people use bitcoin to launder or w/e
02:42 < midnight> Yeh that's what I mean. Aside from direct Bitcoin crime (stealing Bitcoin for the sake of owning stolen bitcoin) on-chain crime/laundering is pretty tiny compared to .. say HSBC.
02:43 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #bitcoin-forks
02:43 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #lnd
02:44 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/gGZAgmctqE4 this is HSBC
02:47 < midnight> I really liked that movie.
02:50 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
02:52 < midnight> Emcy: Coma looks like Sword Art Online but slightly different.
03:00 < midnight> okay, breakfast time.  \o
03:12 < gmaxwell> is there a new season of expanse that just came out?
03:24 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has joined #bitcoin-forks
03:37 < nkuttler> gmaxwell: only three episodes yet
03:39 < gmaxwell> oy!
03:39 < gmaxwell> cool
03:40 < gmaxwell> well maybe more will be out when we finish the show we're currently watching.
03:45 -!- brtastic1 [~Thunderbi@2a02:a315:413a:7580:879e:25b4:92ae:7858] has joined #lnd
03:46 -!- brtastic1 is now known as brtastic
03:52 < Emcy> i should get my big fat torrent drive set up so i can start watching shows again
03:58 < waxwing> gmaxwell, is this statement accurate: monero or similar ring sig cryptocurrency requires a ~ linearly growing state in terms of key images. i.e. even if it's small today, long term that would be the limiting scalability factor.
03:58 < waxwing> apologies, that was a bit random, probably made more sense as a PM :)
04:01 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has joined #lnd
04:02 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has quit [Client Quit]
04:02 < waxwing> or maybe some kind of 'accumulator' concept means that statement isn't actually reasonable.
04:02 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has joined #lnd
04:03 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:05 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has joined #lnd
04:05 -!- davterra [~davterra@89.45.90.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:06 < gmaxwell> waxwing:  Monero as it is today does.  Perhaps someone will one day invent a constant size accumulator with no trusted setup but I'm not aware of any. I believe any that exist would have complicated tradeoffs (e.g. you'd still have to inspect the whole history just to track your own coins so you could produce proofs)
04:07 < gmaxwell> It's also fair for monero people to respond that the key images are relatively small compared to the txns themselves esp now that they have confidential values.
04:07 < waxwing> gmaxwell, what do you think about utreexo? it's kind of the same general area right.
04:07 < waxwing> yeah true today it's not an issue, more about future.
04:08 < gmaxwell> I think it's likely making the wrong tradeoff... bandwidth is the slowest growing of the varrious computer scaling 'laws'-- so exchanging bandwidth for local fast storage is probably not a win.
04:08 < gmaxwell> Maybe for *some* uses-- e.g. run a node on a datacenter hosted low storage/ram VPS, it is, however.
04:09 < gmaxwell> waxwing: for monero, dunno if you've synced a node but it basically takes a longer than it takes to sync bitcoin, on very fast hardware, in spite of having a tiny fraction of the total txns.
04:09 < gmaxwell> unrelated, this is a great visualization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18m0bKsVb0Y
04:10 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.148] has joined #lnd
04:10 < waxwing> interesting. but apart from caveats, the question to me is "can you avoid O(n) scaling", seems to me a transparent btc like blockchain can and a ring sig blockchain can't.
04:11 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:11 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.148] has joined #lnd
04:11 < waxwing> video: wow! had no idea there was such a thing, very cool.
04:12 < gmaxwell> In general, privacy gets in your way because if your outputs are going to be uniformly selected out of N outputs, you have to have had access to the N outputs.
04:13 < waxwing> yeah but i think that can be obfuscated quite a lot. the main issue seems to be double spend protection.
04:13 < waxwing> that's what causes the key image retention problem, which is distinct from the spontaneous ring formation, less of an issue
04:14 < waxwing> 'had no idea there was such a thing' - because there wasn't, it's 4 days old lol.
04:14 < waxwing> and unlisted. is that shareable?
04:14 < gmaxwell> waxwing: monero (like things) could make privacy tradeoffs that mitigated the issue, for example, binned coins into ages... and you expose which ages you're spending from, and where spending from older ages is more expensive, and you use a hash tree commitment thing to track the spent coins.
04:14 < gmaxwell> waxwing: I think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/kd28z4/i_created_an_image_of_bitcoins_utxo_set/gg4r2rb/?context=3
04:15 < gmaxwell> He's been trying to get a 4k version uploaded.
04:15 < waxwing> oh i see got it re: reddit link. re: tradeoff, yes, that makes sense. you see that paradigm mentioned a lot with these obfuscated designs: we just wall off ancient history.
04:16 < waxwing> it's a fairly meaningful degradation, but for sure it could work.
04:16 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""]
04:16 < gmaxwell> waxwing: I mean even zcash has done something like that ... because their older history is potentially insecure.
04:16 < gmaxwell> last one out eats the inflation as loss
04:17 < waxwing> didn't they have a "turnstile" or something?
04:17 < waxwing> has everyone left the crowded theater after fire was yelled? :)
04:17 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:19 < gmaxwell> presumably because of lost keys --- no.
04:28 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
04:31 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
04:33 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.174] has joined #lnd
04:36 -!- davterra [~davterra@86.106.143.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:49 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #lnd
05:00 -!- CryptoSiD [SiD@FreeSpeech.club] has left #bitcoin-forks []
05:06 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has quit [Quit: dionysus69]
05:07 < queip> firefox started injecting Ads in GUI while on empty page. I got one about COVID-19.
05:08 < queip> I hope its firefox Snippets. can be opted-out. Still.. ugh
05:12 -!- botka [~nodebot@104.248.95.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:12 -!- botka [~nodebot@104.248.95.16] has joined #lnd
05:14 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
05:16 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lnd
05:21 < Emcy> its not ads theyre just like mozillas daily thought
05:21 < Emcy> not that i ever asked for my brower vendors opinion on anything
05:25 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:34 < belcher> nice video
05:36 < belcher> i thought the main value-add of utreexo was that the merkle root hash could be included within bitcoin core (and verified by core devs like assumevalid today) and then initial sync can be done much faster by downloading merkle branches
05:36 < belcher> i put the "wrong tradeoff, bandwidth > disk space" point to one of the utreexo devs on reddit a few months ago, and they replied with that
05:36 < belcher> though writing it out now, im not sure it makes sense
05:38 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #lnd
05:39 < belcher> here we go this might be it https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/fzyefj/eli5_utreexo_a_scaling_solution_by_lightning/fn77ytt/
05:39 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has joined #bitcoin-forks
05:44 -!- molz_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd
05:45 < belcher> its a security tradeoff but one which might be worth it
05:48 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:49 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:51 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd
05:52 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd
05:55 -!- molz_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
05:55 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:55 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd
05:56 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
06:02 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #lnd
06:14 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd
06:14 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-forks
06:24 < Emcy> https://i.redd.it/ktqfpchl0r561.jpg wallets that describe fees as a percentage of total
06:24 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1440 x 2697) ]
06:24 < Emcy> barf
06:25 -!- petan [~g@wikimedia/Petrb] has joined #lnd
06:28 < belcher> well it makes sense as a way to warn the user what they're getting into
06:28 < belcher> the way utxos work can be deeply unintuative unfortunately
06:28 < Emcy> but oyu dont need to present a fee - transacted sum ratio to do that
06:29 < Emcy> fees have nothing to do with the sum, and bitcoin has always struggled to explain that because people are so used to fee structures being based directly on the transacted sum for sending money with centralised services
06:30 < Emcy> you could just show the separate amounts in fiat to make it intuitive, wallets that imply theres a ratio relationship are not helping
06:30 < belcher> and thats true for LN
06:30 < Emcy> yes
06:30 < belcher> and joinmarket fees often too
06:31 < waxwing> Emcy, i get your point but it's borderline essential for users to be warned like this, at least above a percentage threshold. otherwise they will simply not notice how big the fee is and get annoyed afterwards, probably rightly.
06:31 < waxwing> if it's below some threshold it's reasonable not to present this as a default thing. that's how we ended up treating it in Joinmarket (where fees can be *tremendously* confusing, at times)
06:31 < Emcy> sure im not arguing for hiding anything from the user, it just doesnt need to imply theres a relationship between the 2 numbers
06:32 < waxwing> but how else could you present the warning, if specifically it's the percentage that's triggering the condition of "you might not want to do this"?
06:33 < Emcy> just show the fee, in relevant fiat, clearly on the send screen?
06:34 < Emcy> so someone can immediately see theyre about to submit $10 in btc to miners or such
06:35 < waxwing> fiat denomination?! /me recoils in horror
06:35 < waxwing> but actually i think it's not a bad answer, just because they don't understand absolute sats amounts
06:35 < waxwing> i personally don't like it but ok.
06:35 < pipilainen> I don't understand sats, nor mbtc, it changes value all the time
06:35 < Emcy> the wallet would have to consider a ratio to know whether to generate a warning or not, i concede, but even then you can just word it like 'it appears you are about to send a large fee' or such, carefully without implying a ratio
06:36 < Emcy> waxwing the fiat number in brackets, secondary to the btc denomination obviously
06:36 < waxwing> yes. i think you will not change their minds though (they probably reason that most users *expect* to deal with fees as percentage), but sure it could work.
06:36 < belcher> if you'll sure fiat at least show fiat+btc
06:37 < Emcy> yes thats what i meant
06:37 < Emcy> its just better than throwing up a ratio percentage with is very misleading imo
06:37 < Old_Man> That sounds like a good design. So, what threshold? 10%? 5%?
06:37 < Emcy> consider then that some wallets do this on purpose also because they exist as an attack on bitcoin....
06:38 < Emcy> vers wallet for one
06:38 < belcher> a tooltip or button click which briefly explains UTXOs wouldnt be a bad idea
06:38 < belcher> "the miner fee isnt related to amount sent, but related to how many previous received payments you're sending"
06:39 < Emcy> very briefly. Youd have to write the blurb of the century to explain utxo feeage in say 1 short sentence
06:39 < belcher> i just did it
06:40 < Emcy> well it explains what, but not why
06:40 < Emcy> i guess you dont really need to explain why
06:40 < belcher> who cares about why lol
06:40 < belcher> yeah
06:41 < Emcy> fees being a ratio of transacted sum is a schelling point that bitcoins enemies have been exploiting for a long time
06:42 < belcher> fee / amounts makes the most sense on a human level too id argue
06:42 < Emcy> thats how nearly every other way of sending money around works, except when its just free
06:42 < belcher> thats another reason users should adopt LN
06:47 -!- DrWhax [~DrWhax@37.218.247.209] has joined #bitcoin-forks
06:52 < Veggen> belcher: it makes sense, really. On LN, it's the liquidity you provide that is the cost, so a fee/amount make sense. For mining, it's the space on the blockchain that is the cost.
06:53 < belcher> yep
06:53 < belcher> fee/amount makes small payments cheaper, absolute fee makes large payments cheaper.. so its a nice complement
06:54 < Veggen> belcher: on my LN node, I have decreased the base fee but increased the fee rate. I think it's only fair to count my fees in 10s of satoshis if I forward tx's of millions of satoshi.
06:57 < waxwing> interesting analogy: swift transfers (large international wires) have traditionally been flat fee, not percent of amount, and retail payment apps/cards are all percent of amount
06:57 < waxwing> i mean i wouldn't stretch it too far but it's fun to notice a vague parallel
06:58 < belcher> yep agreed, and for the same kind of reason maybe
06:58 < belcher> the costs of swift is moving a few papers around, maybe a phonecall... which costs the same regardless of the number
06:59 < belcher> visa/cards presumably put % fee because they judge its the best way to earn the most revenue?
07:05 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:31 < Emcy> midnight did you ever see planetside arena
07:31 < Emcy> i just found a 30 min video i took of it from the alpha [which it never progressed from]
07:32 < Emcy> its cell shaded >.<
07:46 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has joined #bitcoin-forks
07:47 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:51 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
07:57 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-forks
07:57 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lnd
08:01 -!- molz_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd
08:01 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:01 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:01 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-110.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #lnd
08:03 -!- Bugz [~pi@035-134-224-053.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:04 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
08:04 -!- Bugz [~pi@035-134-224-053.res.spectrum.com] has joined #lnd
08:07 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
08:10 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:21 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has joined #bitcoin-forks
08:22 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
08:25 < andytoshi> so, TIL that spotify actually sounds like shit because i was using the web player ... i switched to spotifyd and it's way better
08:39 -!- ShellcatZero1 [~ShellcatZ@97-122-166-198.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:41 < nanotube> <Old_Man> Anybody got a color laser printer that works well in Linux? <- not color, but my brother monochrome laser worked out of the box with ubuntu 20.04
08:41 < Emcy> its 2020 and legal music services still deal you low bitrate music
08:41 < queip> belcher_: LN wallets are attacked too
08:41 < queip> many LN wallets have setting like [x] limit fee to 0.2% of transaction
08:42 < queip> fuck that, I want to limit fee also to some sats
08:42 < queip> at last let me edit that values
08:42 < grubles> andytoshi: could it be you're blocking some script unintentionaly?
08:42 < grubles> so it drops down to potato quality
08:43 < andytoshi> grubles: maaybe, i do have a 13000-line /etc/hosts file i got from somewhere that points 13000
08:43 < andytoshi> ad servers to 0.0.0.0
08:43 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has joined #lnd
08:43 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Crypt-iQ merged pull request #4757: funding: move Manager to own package (master...fmgr_1109) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4757
08:43 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has left #lnd []
08:43 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has joined #lnd
08:43 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Crypt-iQ pushed 13 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/cc17dd580491...e0439965bb61
08:43 < lnd-bot> lnd/master 61e0f67 eugene: funding: rename from fmgr, change references
08:43 < lnd-bot> lnd/master f6524aa eugene: lnd+funding: use funding.WriteOutpoint instead of lnd version
08:43 < lnd-bot> lnd/master caa0f5d eugene: multi: move and export funding-related vars to funding package
08:43 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has left #lnd []
08:47 < andytoshi> but i suspect this is a local chromium resource limitation. the music would also skip when i was compiling stuff
08:48 -!- dionysus69 [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/dionysus69] has quit [Quit: dionysus69]
09:01 < Old_Man> nanotube, I went with an HP model that was supported by HPLIP's current version in raspbian.
09:02 < Old_Man> It's not here yet, but I got the compatibility information off of HP's website.
09:02 < Old_Man> Thanks to everybody for the inputs though... very much appreciated.
09:05 < grubles> andytoshi: ahh weird
09:07 < grubles> you need a preemptive kernel!
09:07 < grubles> ck patches lol
09:08 < andytoshi> lol, well, i just switched spotify to spotifyd, and bitcointicker.co to `watch -c -n 300 curl -s rate.sx/btc`
09:08 < andytoshi> so now i don't need chromium
09:09 < andytoshi> if only i could also switch github and gitlab to things that worked..
09:09 < Emcy> based
09:09 < grubles> the bitcoin ticker sites are hogs man
09:10 < grubles> especially cryptowatch
09:10 < andytoshi> the one i was using (i think it was bitcointicker.co or something liek that) was the worst, it'd show flashes that'd fade away for every new bid/ask
09:10 < grubles> i'd get like 10 FPS on it even with 1080-ti + hw accelerated chromium
09:10 < andytoshi> but like, i was using that one becasue i liked the blinkenlights
09:10 < andytoshi> i didn't even care if the data was real
09:11 < andytoshi> but i guess curl rate.sx it is
09:11 < grubles> it definitely makes me feel like a pro trader or something
09:11 < andytoshi> lol right
09:13 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
09:13 < Old_Man> Holy shit, we're actually *staying* above $23,000 for a few hours? Unreal. I never would have predicted that.
09:14 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
09:18 < andytoshi> iirc in 2013 we went from $8 to $20k in like a week, then back down in another week
09:18 < andytoshi> so extrapolating....we should go to $60k over the next week then back to $15 :P
09:19 < andytoshi> 15k*
09:19 < Old_Man> $15,000 is my guess at the new floor.
09:25 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
09:26 < grubles> haha $8 -> $20k would mean we're going to like $500k
09:26 < grubles> if we do another 2017 run then the top is around $300k
09:27 -!- lesless [~lessless@obligatory.vehicle.volia.net] has joined #lnd
09:32 < andytoshi> hahaha
09:37 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher
09:37 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher
09:37 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:37 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd
10:21 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@mail.dargis.net] has joined #lnd
10:24 < Old_Man> ;;tlast
10:24 <@gribble> 22858.74
10:53 < midnight> Emcy: no, I didn't see Planetside arena. I heard it was just terrible.
11:02 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:02 -!- qprime [~irc@gateway/tor-sasl/qprime] has joined #lnd
11:05 < midnight> andytoshi: is there some kind of colours on that I'm supposed to be seeing
11:10  * midnight looks at Igor's twitter feed for signs
11:10 < pipilainen> 100k would be nice
11:10 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:10 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:12 < midnight> pipilainen: You can't hardly sell anything, it would be incredibly frustrating for you surely
11:14 < pipilainen> I have some ETP bitcoin
11:15 < pipilainen> those are tax free
11:15 < pipilainen> and already inside the scandinavian banking system
11:15 < pipilainen> so I've been selling real BTC and buying this crappy financial product
11:16 < midnight> brutal
11:16 < pipilainen> and I probably could sell somehting, I am still spooked by last time I tried to go over the terrorist limit
11:17 < midnight> andytoshi: :-( https://twitter.com/igor_chubin/status/938445896932560897
11:17 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lnd
11:17 < phantomcircuit> pipilainen, ?
11:17 < phantomcircuit> you mean the currency transaction reporting limit?
11:17 < pipilainen> yeah
11:18 < pipilainen> like 7000 eur or something
11:18 < midnight> phantomcircuit: He has some incredibly low-value maximum which IMO isn't even a living wage for a working human in a developed country or else he gets auto-investigated for potential terrorist financing. In freeking *Sweden*.
11:18 < pipilainen> AML
11:18 < phantomcircuit> pipilainen, you WANT to be over the limit, the thing that will get you in trouble is structuring transactions so that they're under the limit, or equally bad unintentionally structuring transactions so they're under the limit
11:18 < midnight> pipilainen: What you're describing isn't the tx reporting limit. You were describing full on "issues". :-/
11:18 < phantomcircuit> pipilainen, if you can always do limit + 1
11:19 < pipilainen> phantomcircuit: since I sell every month it is not structuring, I am not splitting my transactions for the sell
11:19 < pipilainen> I am reporting every sell to tax authorities and paying the 30% gains tax
11:19 < phantomcircuit> midnight, personally i would always rather they submit the report and make it obvious on my side that i know the report is being generated and ensured that it was
11:19 -!- molz_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
11:19 < pipilainen> perhaps
11:20 < pipilainen> but the thing is
11:20 < pipilainen> if I start doing that they will want receipts
11:20 < pipilainen> from the purchase
11:20 < pipilainen> and those exchanges are long gone, crashed and burned, owner comitted suicide, you know how things work in 2013 bitcoin land
11:20 < pipilainen> or 2012
11:21 < pipilainen> everything from 2014 and onwards I have good data for
11:22 < pipilainen> 2012, 2013 I got a big envelope of printouts from my bank account history mailed to me, then I had to go through those and try to prove I was not laundering money or financing terrorism
11:23 < pipilainen> they couldn't grant my request for transferring money, "but you are welcome to try again", so I did, and I just kept withdrawing and no one says shit
11:24 < belcher> what happens in the event you fail to prove? they just steal your money or..?
11:24 < pipilainen> not fool proof, but you don't know how their systems work, or their policies
11:25 < pipilainen> belcher: the banks have to make a judgement, then they have to report suspicion to the financial police
11:25 < midnight> phantomcircuit: yeah, course. same. Buddy here is talking about being forced to prove stuff automagically though.
11:25 < midnight> brutal.
11:25 < pipilainen> they can refuse incoming transactions easily, but that doesn't really do anything to my money
11:27 < pipilainen> midnight: well, I did tell them my life story, computer science student who fell into the bitcoin rabbit hole, I had transactions back in 2012 and forward with names of bitcoin exchanges and amounts, so I could prove every BTC I had, they dont know how many BTC I have, but they know I have bought more than I've sold
11:27 < pipilainen> so there are no illegal inflows of bitcoin into the banking system
11:27 < pipilainen> atleast that was my case as I put it forward
11:29 < pipilainen> belcher: I don't think the bank will steal my money, but the bank is under pressure from the united states ban hammer
11:29 < pipilainen> and if the US pressures my banks enough, they will put pressure on me the customer
11:29 < Veggen> pipilainen: am not too good at papers, myself. I have probably overpaid taxes on bitcoin  last years. I plan on claiming "last-in-first-out" this year, and note amounts and purchases on everything from what I have bought at exchanges at earlier stage. But I really need to find a good way to keep track of things on a daily basis, it's basically impossible :)
11:30 < belcher> freezing = stealing, if you supposedly have the money in your account but cant do anything with it, thats the same as not having it
11:30 < belcher> freezing indefinitely*
11:30 < pipilainen> belcher: they sent the transaction back in my case
11:30 < pipilainen> but yes, freezing is stealing
11:30 < belcher> back to the exchange?
11:30 < pipilainen> yes
11:30 < belcher> so in the worst case you can get btc back out
11:30 < pipilainen> I'm rate limited
11:31 < pipilainen> yes
11:31 < pipilainen> so it's not too shabby
11:32 < pipilainen> but I wish I could play the swings a bit better
11:33 < pipilainen> but I'm horrible at trading and trading is also dangerous land, if tax authorities says I'm a professional trader, they will tax everything worse
11:35 < midnight> argh I'm not getting almost any of the colours on my terminal
11:36 < midnight> ooo or wait, are the glyphs missing
11:38 < midnight> ah the glyph is missing.  andytoshi: nvm.
12:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:09 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #bitcoin-forks
12:09 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd
12:10 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-forks
12:10 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lnd
12:15 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@mail.dargis.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
12:31 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #bitcoin-forks
12:31 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd
12:34 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:34 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:36 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:39 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #lnd
13:00 < andytoshi> midnight: ah, nice. yeah, it uses some weird glyphs, i'm sure there's some way to disable it (probbaly you could even use sed)
13:00 < andytoshi> but yeah, it does also have colors
13:16 < midnight> andytoshi: looks like it makes extensive use of the braille glyphs, which were so tedious to handmake that I never actually finished the complete set.
13:19  * midnight tediously finishes them
13:28 < midnight> whoever it is buying is waiting for the sellers to dump before buying chunks.. repeatedly.
13:28 < midnight> \o "thanks for the cheaper bitcoins"
13:31 < gmaxwell> 13:36 < belcher> i thought the main value-add of utreexo was that the merkle root hash could be included within bitcoin core (and verified by core devs like assumevalid
13:31 < gmaxwell> if you just want some utxo commitment, some other one could be done *much* more efficiently for validating nodes.
13:32 < gmaxwell> belcher: e.g. the rolling hash schemes.
13:33 < belcher> mmm yes
13:49 -!- b10c [~b10c@2a01:4f8:192:612a:216:3eff:fef3:dc6a] has joined #bitcoin-forks
13:49 -!- b10c [~b10c@2a01:4f8:192:612a:216:3eff:fef3:dc6a] has joined #lnd
13:51 < gmaxwell> belcher: schemes should be evaluated vs their next alternative --- so I don't think quickstart is an argument for utxotree at all.
13:51 < gmaxwell> I think the only way to evaluate utxotree is the value of the bandidth tradeoff node operation vs the operating cost of all nodes validating and keeping that commitment.
14:10 -!- brtastic [~Thunderbi@2a02:a315:413a:7580:879e:25b4:92ae:7858] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:22 < belcher> yes and thats not a great tradeoff as many have pointed out
14:47 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:47 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:49 < midnight> \o/ I can see the full graph now
14:54 < nkuttler> i like graphs
14:55 < midnight> nkuttler: there's a neat console btc price graph which has super-specific geoloc for its weather aspect, and suggested people feed it their total holdings to let it calculate their net Bitcoin-worth.
14:55 < midnight> but it's pretty
14:56 < nkuttler> um, what? i know rate.sx and wttr.in
14:57 < midnight> yep those ones.
14:57 < midnight> the guy tweeted a suggestion that people could feed in their total holdings and let him calculate their total worth.
14:57 < midnight> and his weather thing knows where you are.
14:57 < midnight> so..
14:57 < nkuttler> :-\
14:58 < nkuttler> i already torify those urls
14:58 -!- diskop [~diskop@176.88.29.33] has joined #bitcoin-forks
14:58 < nkuttler> i have a wrapper script for all those graphs and info urls etc
14:59 < nkuttler> also various ticker apis, and alphavantage for stock prices
14:59 < midnight> what's alphavatage
14:59 < nkuttler> fwiw, the only tor-friendly bitcoin apis i found are kraken and gemini
15:00 < nkuttler> midnight: api for stock prices etc
15:00 < nkuttler> need to sign up though, and a key for access
15:00 < midnight> oh.
15:05 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #lnd
15:11 -!- diskop [~diskop@176.88.29.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
15:14 -!- diskop [~diskop@176.88.28.69] has joined #bitcoin-forks
15:24 -!- TheHoliestRoger [~TheHolies@unaffiliated/theholiestroger] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
15:26 -!- TheHoliestRoger [~TheHolies@unaffiliated/theholiestroger] has joined #lnd
15:30 -!- ark [~ark@89.32.80.84] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
15:32 < nibbier> roasbeef: thanks again.
15:44 -!- TheHoliestRoger [~TheHolies@unaffiliated/theholiestroger] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
15:46 -!- TheHoliestRoger [~TheHolies@unaffiliated/theholiestroger] has joined #lnd
15:58 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has joined #lnd
15:58 < lnd-bot> [lnd] Roasbeef opened pull request #4872: peer: ensure consistent local+global feature bits when downgrading (master...fix-tweakless-downgrade) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4872
15:58 -!- lnd-bot [~lnd-bot@165.227.7.29] has left #lnd []
16:18 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:18 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:23 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-forks
16:24 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd
16:54 -!- diskop [~diskop@176.88.28.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:00 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@rrcs-98-6-232-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
17:09 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:09 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:10 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-forks
17:10 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd
17:20 < grubles> strange how quiet #bitcoin is given the price movements
17:21 < gmaxwell> Everyone deflected to pricetalk channels?
17:21 < grubles> yeah but still
17:27 < gmaxwell> https://github.com/shushcli/shush/blob/master/go.sum  < man ths is the transitive dependencies for some shamir secret sharing thing.
17:27 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ shush/go.sum at master · shushcli/shush · GitHub ]
17:27 < gmaxwell> this is utterly fucking out of control
17:27 < gmaxwell> security cannot exist in that world.
17:31 < grubles> lol AHHH
17:31 < grubles> i was expecting some code
17:31 < grubles> 1,250 dependencies?
17:56 < andytoshi> haha wtf
17:56 < andytoshi> and i love that the same dep is included with 20 different versions
18:09 < grubles> 14
18:09 < grubles> bitfinex's api is tor friendly too iirc
18:10 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined #bitcoin-forks
18:39 < Emcy> ;;tlast
18:39 <@gribble> 23227.47
18:39 < Emcy> madness
18:39 < Emcy> ;;ticker --high
18:39 <@gribble> 23777.0
18:40 < gmaxwell> But listen closely, not for very much longer
18:42 < Emcy> ?
18:45 -!- rabidus_ [~rabidus@dsl-olubng12-54fa17-92.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-forks
18:48 -!- rabidus [~rabidus@dsl-olubng12-54fa0c-1.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:56 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-96.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
19:33 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@cpe-24-243-147-8.rgv.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd
19:39 < queip> <somenobody> I don't think any of what I'm talking about is new.   https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/congestion-attacks-in-payment-channel-networks-b7ac37208389
19:39 < Entitlement> queip - [ Congestion Attacks in Payment Channel Networks | by Ayelet Mizrahi | Blockchains... ]
19:40 < queip> <plankers> >Payments are executed in a trustless manner,  using conditional payment contracts (in the form of transactions with  HTLCs) that are exchanged between parties and are only sent to the  blockchain if disputes arise. These contracts grow in size as more  conditional payments are pending, and so the total number of pending  payments is limited by transaction sizes that can be placed on the  blockchain.
19:40 < queip> https://medium.com/blockchains-huji/congestion-attacks-in-payment-channel-networks-b7ac37208389
19:40 < queip> is this real or fud
19:42 < Emcy> huh
19:42 < Emcy> you only need to commit the final balance, thats the point
19:43 < Emcy> i dont think any part of a channel contains or records the full history of the channel? why would it need to
19:44 < queip> that was my intuition, how ever Im reading
19:44 < Emcy> https://mempool.space pretty chucnky mempool going on rn
19:44 < Emcy> i smell fomo
19:47 < Emcy> i wish it show how much total fees are proffered in the mempool currently
19:49 < Emcy> well if you click the pending blocks it does, highest priority block template has 1.75btc fees, pretty nice
19:49 < queip> imagine that
19:49 < queip> a solid chunker of a gold bar, for making 1 bitcoin block
19:50 < Emcy> well it costs nearly the same on average to make the block
19:52 < Emcy> https://files.catbox.moe/xzvava.jpg for some people price is no consideration
19:53 < Emcy> i wonder who needs a tx confirmed so badly they pay 10,000sat/vb
19:53 < Emcy> degenerate day traders perhaps
19:54 < Emcy> shoulda used liquid or something
20:02 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:08 < DeanGuss> let's assume it's an accident... I definitely paid $300 to send $50 one time :(
20:08 < DeanGuss> one time and one time only haha
20:13 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:13 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-forks
20:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lnd
20:19 < Emcy> lol rip
20:20 < Emcy> i doubt any human is choosing to pay 10,000sats actually, its probably just broken software, or software that someone never bothered implementing fee estimation with at all
20:26 < Emcy> one thing i dont understand about gavin is why he put effort into creating 'smart fees' when he was just a big blocker all along
20:34 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:34 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:35 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-forks
20:35 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lnd
20:50 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@cpe-24-243-147-8.rgv.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:57 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@rrcs-98-6-232-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lnd
21:00 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@rrcs-98-6-232-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
21:00 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@rrcs-98-6-232-98.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lnd
21:53 < midnight> weird. Lotta people holding a grudge against Shimomura even like 20 years after he wrecked their hero. :-/
21:54 < midnight> Pretending to be him on twitter; injecting his name in obscure news stories.
21:54 < midnight> Messed up man.
21:56 < Emcy> whom
21:57 < midnight> Whom what?
21:57 < midnight> Who's pretending to be him on twitter?
21:58 < midnight> https://twitter.com/Shimo7even this guy.
21:58 < midnight> I'm sure it's in an ironic or mocking sort of way or whatever but still.
21:59 < midnight> You ever watch kevin mitnick's online sessions which were recorded, with timing info, as they happened..?
22:00 < Emcy> who is shiomura
22:02 < midnight> Shimomura is the (former?) SDSC physicist whose computers Kevin Mitnick broke into and who then kind of irritatedly spent an ungodly amount of time and effort tracking Mitnick down carefully after that, ultimately finding him via directional cell frequency counters (I think) and getting him arrested by the FBI.
22:02 < midnight> Tsutomu Shimomura.
22:03 < midnight> Buddy kind of dropped off the net. No twitter, no websites, no real press about him post-2016.
22:04 < Emcy> well
22:05 < Emcy> im sure they could have a beer and laugh about it now
22:05 < midnight> He appeared briefly in Hackers 2: Takedown as one of Skeet Ulrich's (who was playing Kevin Mitnick) buddies who were heckling the Tsutomu character.
22:05 < midnight> Mitnick still comments about how Tsutomu's actions were "illegal" and remain unpunished.
22:06 < midnight> Mitnick recently commented about John Barlow dying, who by Mitnick's assertion is the one who asked Shimomura to help with Mitnick.
22:06 < midnight> Well. Two years ago recently.
22:06 < midnight> https://twitter.com/kevinmitnick/status/961412891856392194
22:08 < Emcy> well he was a bid of a lad back then so he cant really complain
22:08 < Emcy> a bit of a boy
22:09 < midnight> Just a typical arrogant can't-catch-me script kiddy who was fed high-end exploits by someone in Israel.
22:09 < Emcy> he done his bid and now he makes famous consultant money
22:09 < midnight> You can see him talking to the guy in the sessions.
22:13 < midnight> Via UNIX talk. Dunno if you ever used that before, but it was pretty awesome.
22:14 < Emcy> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CopszKYWYAQbIdg?format=jpg&name=orig
22:14 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (931 x 698) ]
22:15 < midnight> yeh that's the team the impersonator self-associated with
22:17 < Emcy> >Sony removes Cyberpunk 2077 from PlayStation Store and offers refunds to customers
22:17 < Emcy> rekt
22:23 < queip> they deserve it
22:23 < queip> AI/behaviour of police was better 20 years ago in GTA 2
22:25 < queip> they also took ~7,000,000$ of my and fellow countryman taxpayer money to "Create an advanced life virtual city [in the game]" which is equally terrible
22:26 < midnight> eh. I'm not going to go for the refund.
22:34 < Emcy> so all the reviewers could have mentioned something about how the game is barely functional on consoles
22:35 < Emcy> instead they spent all their efforts whining about the dickgirl poster
22:35 < Emcy> this is one of the worst journalistic failures to come out of game reviewing in a long time
22:35 < midnight> That's true.
22:36 < midnight> It is barely (but not really) playable on lastgen consoles.
22:36 < midnight> The play quality is basically totally broken.
22:36 < Emcy> not a huge surprise really, those people ARE journalistic failures. Thats why theyre writing about stupid videogames, and not writing for washington post or whatever.
22:36 < Emcy> theres a reason theyre nasty and bitter
22:39 < queip> Emcy: well, reviewers were embargoed. CD project red become typical evil corporation now
22:39 < queip> no reviewer at all was allowed to post footage they recorded.  and none was given non-PC version or something
22:40 < Emcy> embargoes arent a magic spell. If the product literally does not work, perhaps stop being a coward 'journalist' and tell people
22:41 < Emcy> instead of shit stirring about your pet social theory crap which no one asked your opinion on
22:41 < Emcy> cowards all
22:43 < queip> again, no one had the console version outside of developers
22:43 < queip> not sure tho how no one leaked the AI is shit
22:50 < queip> remember kids. NO. PREORDERS. not even if Keanu plays a role in it.
22:51 < Emcy> i have no idea why anyone would preorder a game now
22:52 < queip> I have to admit, I considered it a for moment.  Mostly to support the cause kind of.  New polish kind of Deus Ex, from Witcher devels? where do I sign
22:52 < queip> boy was I wrong on every level to think that :PPP
23:01 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #lnd
23:13 < Emcy> ;;tlast
23:13 <@gribble> 22912.69
23:13 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #bitcoin-forks
23:13 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd
23:13 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #bitcoin-forks
23:13 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd
23:14 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:14 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:17 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:17 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:39 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:39 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:59 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
--- Log closed Fri Dec 18 00:00:52 2020