--- Log opened Tue Dec 22 00:00:53 2020
00:10 < Emcy> and scotus nixed it??? why?
00:10 < Emcy> what a shame
00:10 < Emcy> seperation of powers issues i guess
00:10 < Emcy> but the prez can veto bills wholesale anyway
00:11 < Emcy> it wouldnt matter of congress wasnt a whorehouse in the first place
00:11 < gmaxwell> yeah but vetoing a whole bill isn't the same as editing it via microdeletions.
00:12 < Emcy> i suppose the concept does sort of make the president into a minor legislator
00:12 < Emcy> but still....congress fault
00:15 < Emcy> strange to think the athenians had it more right 3000 years ago
00:15 < Emcy> where being a legislator was more like jury duty, a short lived annoyance
00:16 < Emcy> rather than a way to mysteriously accrue a >100mm net worth on a 180k base salary
00:21 < Emcy> >India suspends flights from the UK until December 31
00:21 < Emcy> tfw too dirty even for india
00:23 < pipilainen> the new version of the virus is probably all over the world by now
00:24 < Emcy> ye
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00:25 < Emcy> midnight looks like ice9 hit the 'speak up about it and find out who your friends really are' phase
00:25 < pipilainen> I mean perhaps not in every city of the world, but pretty far away
00:25 < Emcy> midnight forgot link https://twitter.com/__ice9/status/1340898243480305665
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00:34 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/NoahCRothman/status/1339924261667004422
00:35 < Emcy> people were warned that sjws were on a trajectory towards eugenics eventually
00:35 < Emcy> and these ones are the 'ethicists'
00:37 < Emcy> if left nearly completely unchecked, as it is, it was inevitable because life isnt a disney film, and there are no good guys and bad guys. everyone has the potential for this within them
00:37 < Emcy> anyone can rationalise anything if they have enough nodding heads around them
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00:42 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero opened pull request #4881: rpcserver: fix log statement in channelbalance (master...rpc-log-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4881
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00:49 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/JCompson_III/status/1339816443668553728 NYT running defence for it because of course
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01:39 < waxwing> so if they make posting memes a capital offence or whatever, i guess we can look on the bright side: more people will actually use anonymity networks and related techniques.
01:45 < queip> waxwing: the game is not to outright destroy all freedom
01:45 < queip> it is to make it a fringe exception that only some weirdos do.
01:46 < queip> with no power to organize even a protest. Also, they will be in time assumed to be probably pedos or smth, such as nocoiners and idiots think/thought bitcoin is mostly by druggies
01:46 < waxwing> yeah sure that's a given at some level, i'm just musing about whether somehow the schelling point of culture shifts when the authorities' behaviour become sufficiently absurd.
01:47 < waxwing> as it is, it's a very small but nontrivial subset of society that sees using Tor, e.g., as a fairly normal thing. maybe that goes from 'very small' to 'a sizeable minority'.
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02:15 < Emcy> https://i.redd.it/zgcaajb19eu51.png heh i did this once
02:15 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ png (1178 x 1052) ]
02:16 < Emcy> mine goes faster than that on a fresh batt
02:17 < Emcy> i really thought it would have too small a radar cross section to activate the cam, but it seems not
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02:29 < gmaxwell> https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/khyf58/gremlins_basically_the_covid19_story/
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02:31 < belcher> <gmaxwell> If people would like to help me with the fincen reply I'm going to reply tomorrow, I could use some examples of kidnappings/extortion related to cryptocurrency. <---- https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks
02:31 < Entitlement> belcher - [ GitHub - jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks: A list of known attacks against Bitcoin... ]
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02:32 < belcher> regarding that guy who got his hardware wallet and seed taken at customs, this is why i prefer using seed passphrases/seed extensions, then at least the seed phrase isnt there naked for the taking
02:33 < belcher> you can always write down the passphrase on the paper when storing normally, then refresh your memory and destroy it when travelling
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02:49 < Emcy> whats a seed extension
02:50 < belcher> an arbitrary extra word you can use to encrypt a seed phrase
02:50 < belcher> then to recover the wallet you need the seed phrase plus your extension aka passphrase
02:50 < belcher> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Seed_phrase#Two-Factor_Seed_Phrases
02:50 < Entitlement> belcher - [ Seed phrase - Bitcoin Wiki ]
02:52 < belcher> btw i found out that india also has its own version of the US's 6108 law banning gold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gold_(Control)_Act,_1968 only repealed in the year 1990
02:52 < Entitlement> belcher - [ The Gold (Control) Act, 1968 - Wikipedia ]
02:53 < Emcy> so the point of the phrase is to reduce your memory requirement from 24 words to 1 essentially
02:54 < belcher> no
02:54 < belcher> there are still the 12 random words
02:54 < qubenix> belcher: its executive order 6102 in usa
02:54 < belcher> but those words are encrypted with a passphrase
02:54 < belcher> qubenix ah yes thats right ty
02:54 < Emcy> but this doesnt seem strong. there are only what ~120k english words?
02:55 < belcher> Emcy the passphrase can be anything you choose
02:55 < belcher> and it cant be bruteforced unless someone also has your 12-word seed phrase
02:55 < Emcy> oh it can be a whole phrase
02:55 < belcher> so the customs officers can try bruteforcing only after they see your 12 words written down
02:56 < Emcy> yeah i know the seed words are still necessary, im saying the only part you have to memorise is the passphrase
02:56 < belcher> yes
02:56 < Emcy> and it prevents a written seed phrase from just being wide open for the taking
02:56 < belcher> yep
02:56 < Emcy> ok thats good. ive never heard of that scheme implemented though
02:56 < belcher> its implemented in electrum and every hardware wallet i believe
02:56 < belcher> and joinmarket
02:56 < Emcy> huh well ok
02:57 < belcher> its a standard part of bip39 and electrum's seed phrase format
02:57 < belcher> its also in rust-bitcoin haha
02:57 < belcher> and probably other libraries
02:57 < Emcy> i also dont know why some wallets use 12 words and other use 24
02:57 < Emcy> i think the 12 word scheme is the bip?
02:58 < belcher> though from what iv seen many people dont really like it, i guess they say you're more likely to lose the passphrase then for someone to see your seed phrase
02:58 < belcher> but you can have a pretty simple passphrase and it still provides security
02:58 < belcher> or keep the passphrase written down on the same paper as the seed phrase, then when you're travelling memorize it and only carry the seed phrase
02:59 < Emcy> yeah, i think its reasonable to put your own fallibility pretty high up in your threat model
02:59 < queip> so around @15k friends asked me: anon, price really goes up wow. Soooo, do you think it is good time to buy some Ripple?
02:59 < queip> I said: uhhh no?. Im waiting to find out what they did in the end with advices
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03:00 < queip> interesting part " since bitcoin is already so expensive ".  Btw also they bought like @10 or something, but dumped after dip.  Oh, people
03:00 < queip> 10k
03:01 < belcher> its not expensive, you can get 4403 sats for a single USD
03:01 < Emcy> bitcoin.it is such a treasure
03:02 < belcher> (a case when sats are actually good)
03:03 < gmaxwell> that and beaming signals from SPACE
03:03 < belcher> hehehe
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03:20 < queip> gmaxwell: can we make #bitcoin-mining great again?
03:20 < queip> I like know 0 people who can actually guide how to do it nowdays, with real examples (where to buy, what to buy, what to install)
03:21 < queip> who also wanted to help.... belcher? to help people decentralize mining at homes
03:21 < queip> I know some people for whom investing this - I assume - ~2000$ might be doable
03:23 < belcher> i know of the guide https://bitcoinwords.github.io/mining-for-the-streets
03:23 < Entitlement> belcher - [ Mining for the Streets - 𝗪𝗢𝗥𝗗𝗦 Bitcoin Journal ]
03:23 < belcher> thats all i know, iv never mined myself
03:24 < belcher> mining can be a nice anonymous way to accumulate bitcoins via DCA
03:30 < Veggen> it does have a high cost of entry, thogh.
03:32 < queip> like getting a car to do some job, seems not too bad
03:32 < Veggen> Wish we had low-powered miners that were just as effective. I.e. give 1/1000th of an Antiminer <state of the art> hash rate for...well,maybe not 1/1000th but at least many times less - of the price.
03:32 < queip> Veggen: that would be nice
03:32 < queip> perhaps someone could create a way to turn 1 miner into 5 smaller ones
03:33 < Veggen> there's cloud mining, of course.
03:33 < queip> is BitMain the only vendor you must talk to in order to get any sort of reasonable profits?
03:33 < Veggen> but I haven't really heard any place that has contracts that is profitable compared to just keeping on to the coins you pay for it.
03:36 < Veggen> are we for or against those privacy-preserving covid-tracking apps?
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03:38 < queip> I would use one if on open hardware
03:38 < queip> otherwise nope, don't need Whine the Pooh to know my location at all times
03:40 < Veggen> queip: the randomly generated IDs that you share is not linkable to you until you actually make it linkable to you, i.e. report that you are infected. In that case, the IDs you have generated are uploaded centrally, and any other app-runners will periodically check their local close contact database IDs (random) against those random IDs.
03:40 < Veggen> sure. Open hardware would be nice. But we want something that will actually be possible on hardware people already have.
03:40 < queip> Veggen: cool, the thing is they work on mobile phones. I do not want to walk with mobile phone (not in airplane mode or off)
03:42 < Veggen> well, that's a fight I have given up long ago :)
03:42 < queip> also what for, to risk getting more of badly done lockdown?  my gov is far far less smart on this topic then myself
03:42 < queip> there is nothing good they can do for me
03:43 < queip> in ideal world where we have devices that allow only us, only if we want to, to warn others / to find out we were in a near contact - ok. but that is not our world
03:43 < Veggen> queip: No. It's actually to avoid more badly down lockdowns to allow people to quarantine/test themselves that wouldn't know they had to, thereby limiting the number of people unwillingly spreading the virus.
03:44 < Veggen> queip: this one is about as good as can be done on todays cell phones.
03:44 < queip> the best solution is a 100% lockdown (except like fire fighters, army, ambulances - all in very good PPE) for 40 days once for entire nation;  and then for everyone coming in from abroad
03:44 < queip> I do not know of any need for any other solution
03:45 < Veggen> good luck with that. No politicians in a democracy can ever get away with that.
03:46 < queip> I would
03:46 < queip> they do much worse now
03:47 < queip> 200, 300, 500 day almost full lockdown, is worse than 40 days full lockdown (with time to prepare). Quickly ripped off bandage
03:47 < queip> they are breaking constitution for like 4... 5? months now
03:47 < Veggen> I sort of agree, but I don't have the power to mandate a 40-day lockdown, and I'm not gonna be in my own futile 40-day perpetual lockdown :)
03:48 < queip> doing a full lock down would be LESS controversial, as I would just do it properly and legally: declare state of emergency
03:48 < Veggen> you should run for election.
03:48 < queip> sadly, I'm not the king, we have a democracy so they picked and selected for the most effective sammers, people who lie, and regular idiots
03:48 < queip> *scammers
03:49 < queip> Veggen: I can't run for president and 180 positions in senate at once
03:49 < queip> which is a surprise that such exploit doesn't exist on the books, considered quality of the law overall in this country made out from ducttape and plywood
03:50 < queip> they recently passed a law, where 1 of the paragraphs is null and void.  because they enumerated two paragraphs as (for example ) 10.2.a , and another 10.2.a.  Only the first one is a law (or smth)
03:51 < queip> Veggen: also if I would have the skills to cheat steal blackmail and fuck over everyone to be a politician, I would just be a shitcoiner
03:51 < queip> skills&morales
03:56 < queip> Veggen: anyway;  for spurious new sources popping up (like... someone sick was part time working in deep-frozen food manufacturer, didnt tell, and later someoen ate that without proper cooking etc) - well, ask them where cities they visited, lockdown these cities, and announce on the news so everyone who was visiting will self isolate (or he risks getting his city locked down too)
03:57 < queip> in the meantime, ok, work also on a proper, fully open hardware, open software, e2ee, distributed proper system. just to be sure
03:59 < queip> I know 99.9% people shit on their privacy and will be ok with carrying a phone. for them.. ehh I would say such app is tolerable .... on the other hand, it DOES teach them it is ok to always announce your position like a god damn Airbus or characters in HitMan series, I don't like normalization of that
04:29 < queip> deb0rah help
04:30 < deb0rah> queip: .price <pairname>
04:30 < queip> who administrates deb0rah? why not have it on #bitcoin-pricetalk >_>
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04:36 < Veggen> queip: perfection is the enemy of good enough.
04:37 < Veggen> I believe in the *current situation*, providing you are comfortable with running a smartphone at all, then the Apple/Google-framework app are pretty decent.
04:39 < Veggen> and as previously: I quite like my social life. I don't believe in waiting until we have a dictatorship that makes it possible with China-type lockdown here, so in the meantime, we have to do whatever that is practically/politically possible, and accept that the perfect solution may not exist and/or may take too long to implement.
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05:28 < belcher> https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwalletleak/comments/ki1nsz/received_phone_call_threatening_kidnapping_and/
05:28 < belcher> "A male, Anglo-accent caller asked if I was <my full name> and claimed to be a drug addict, and gave me my full address, and said he knows I have a lot of bitcoins. When asked how, he said my information has been leaked on the dark web. I played dumb and he eventually says I purchased a ledger hardware wallet and “only loaded c*nts” buy them."
05:28 < belcher> "He told me a sob story about how he is addicted to meth, is about to run out, and needs monero to buy more. He demanded 10 XMR and said if it’s not sent by midnight, he will show up at my house, kidnap me, and “stab to death” any relatives living at my address. I was able to record this phone call as I put him on speaker phone. "
05:29 < belcher> ledger better get sued into bankruptcy over this
05:29 < belcher> IANAL so no idea how likely that is
05:30 < pipilainen> you're not even french?
05:32 < belcher> i am not a lawyer
05:32 < belcher> oh you mean because ledger is a french company?
05:32 < belcher> i personally never bought a ledger
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05:39 < nkuttler> this kind of leak is why i never bought a hw wallet
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05:41 < belcher> id like to say me too, but in reality i believed i had the skills to do multisig cold storage safely and wanted to save $100 or however much they cost :p
05:49 < queip> nkuttler: one could get it in person from vendor, or have it mailed to some drop box thing
05:49 < pipilainen> belcher: you're not a lawyer and you're not french
05:50 < pipilainen> they are frenchies right?
05:50 < pipilainen> the ledger people
05:50 < nkuttler> queip: didn't want it that much anyway
05:52 < queip> nkuttler: if we move to glorious future of buying on the street or at restaurant, will you carry a bag of computers on you?
05:52 < pipilainen> using a hardware wallet in a restaurant?
05:52 < queip> pipilainen: ye
05:52 < queip> everyone doing it simple on his smartphone will end in pain with next 0day on android
05:53 < queip> (once btc is "mainstream")
05:53 < pipilainen> the service provider will handle such things
05:53 < pipilainen> if it isn't pocket change
05:53 < queip> pipilainen: hm?
05:53 < pipilainen> perhaps some multisig setup
05:53 < pipilainen> it bitcoin ever takes off
05:54 < pipilainen> a service provider and local signing on the phone or wearable
05:54 < pipilainen> what do I know
05:55 < nkuttler> queip: lol, my servants will carry the computer
05:56 < belcher> queip just transfer a small amount to your smartphone wallet in that case
05:56 < belcher> and keep your main stash at home
05:57 < queip> belcher: 0 day grabbing 100$ but from 10,000 phones still sucjks
05:57 < belcher> coldstorage/multisig/hardware wallets is a secure bank vault, not a day-to-day wallet
05:57 < queip> nkuttler: just one computer? dunno maybe a bag or rpis / pines / fpgs lol
05:57 < belcher> thats like asking are you going to carry your swiss bank account around with you to buy bread and milk
05:57 < pipilainen> the only thing that reliably works is 2fa
05:57 < pipilainen> you can't expect people to keep a piece of paper safe or write down seeds
05:58 < pipilainen> they are far to impatient to find a pencil
05:58 < pipilainen> (stupid really)
05:58 < Veggen> agreed, this "not your keys, not your coins" will not scale to the world.
05:59 < queip> belcher: avoiding mass-theft of 100$ is imo a good use for HWs.  other one is being used in like 5-of-5 just to even further increase diversity of backdoors in hws and such
05:59 < Veggen> ...on a psychological level, not physical.
06:00 < queip> Veggen: I hope nYKnYB can extend to everyone who wants to use it. For many - in form of LN. Hopefully we can avoid need for custodial...
06:01 < Veggen> queip: Sure. I hope so, too. But on an educational level, I think we'll not get to the stage where people know the risks and consequences.
06:01  * queip can wait 10 or 20 years to get there
06:01 < queip> crypto-literacy is the new literacy
06:03 < Emcy> so is ledger going to jail yet
06:07 < Veggen> sorry, but computer literacy in general is going down. Sure, people learn to use programs, but they are less aware about how things work, etc. Is my general impression.
06:08 < queip> Veggen: that seems correct to a degree, effect of appliances getting more ez to use
06:08 < queip> golden gardening is not helping
06:08 < queip> err.... golden cage / walled garden.  :)
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06:48 < grubles> are there any newly manufactured CRT monitors anymore
06:52 < Veggen> google CRT-monitor mostly gives wikipedia-links, explanations of how they work, etc. *NO commercial links*
06:52 < Veggen> So I think it's safe to assume that there isn't? ;P
06:52 < Emcy> ;;tlast
06:52 <@gribble> 23435.35
06:53 < Emcy> grubles perhaps but not anywhere near consumer/retail
06:53 < Emcy> may be some specialist applications for them, outside of retro gaming purists
06:54 < Emcy> said purists have driven the price of working crts thru the roof btw
06:55 < Veggen> an amazon search for "CRT monitor" gives a list of monitors for sale, none CRT.
06:55 < grubles> yeah i noticed
06:55 < Emcy> i think its safe to assume by now that nearly all the tooling to make the tubes is gone by now
06:55 < Veggen> ...and you can select monitor type, CRT is not an option.
06:55 < grubles> $3k for a working sony one on ebay
06:55 < Emcy> yeah the gamers like those trinitrons
06:56 < Emcy> if i could remember even half of what i learned about fixing tube tellys i might be making a killing now
06:57 < Emcy> i got my qualification for that just as LCDs and fully digital signal paths were starting to take off lmao
06:57 < Veggen> I used to have a side business fixing word perfect documents lost to bad floppy disk sectors.
06:57 < grubles> i don't want to go anywhere near the internals of a CRT
06:57 < Veggen> ...when I was a teenager.
06:57 < grubles> otherwise i'd attempt reparis
06:58 < grubles> repairs
06:59 < Veggen> turns out word perfect was simple enough that you could just ignore the bad sector when reading, then open the document in an hex editor and replace the garbled noise with spaces. THose having their thesis destroyed would happily pay for that service, losing half a page instead of a document :)
06:59 < Emcy> grubles its fine as long as you discharge the final anode properly
06:59 < Emcy> cos itll give you a proper smack if you mess around, trust me
07:01 < Emcy> but they have to be on and working when youre repairing them anyway, so you can calibrate it etc
07:01 < Emcy> i never liked doing that, i wouldnt trust myself to do it now anyway
07:01 < grubles> yeah no thanks lol
07:02 < Veggen> Emcy: a smack, sure, but was the current really large enough to do much damage?
07:02 < Emcy> LCDs use to have a HV component in them too [the cathode inverter], but theyre all lcd now so afaik they dont have HV in them anymore
07:02 < Emcy> LED*
07:03 < Emcy> Veggen only takes 30mv to put you into defibrillation
07:03 < Emcy> they taught us to work one handed around hot equipment wherever possible
07:04 < Emcy> i mean 30mA
07:05 < Emcy> grubles gaze ye mighty and despair https://boards.4channel.org/vr/thread/7194557
07:05 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ /vr/ - /CRT/ THREAD - VGA EDITION - Retro Games - 4chan ]
07:07 < grubles> >CRT
07:07 < grubles> >transparent Dreamcast
07:07 < grubles> hngggg
07:10 < Emcy> ikr
07:10 < Emcy> ive still got a dc and an ossc to plug it into
07:11 < Emcy> i draw the line at keeping a tube telly around though
07:11 < Emcy> you might pick up some tips of finsing one from those threads if you hang around
07:11 < Emcy> finding*
07:14 < queip> mmmmm DIY crt plz
07:14 < queip> monochrome CRT should be easiest display to make totally yourself I guess?
07:15 < Emcy> in the same way you could make an 'astronomy telescope' at home perhaps
07:16 < andytoshi> setting millions of discrete LEDs would probably be easier honestly
07:16 < Emcy> out of like, cut off beer bottle bottoms and a pringles tube
07:16 < andytoshi> lol
07:17 < andytoshi> i guess you'd also need millions of 555 timers on every LED to PWM it
07:17 < andytoshi> god imagine the weight
07:20 < Emcy> if you want a jumbotron you can probably just buy one if you can find a contact
07:20 < andytoshi> yeah but that wouldn't be open source
07:20 < andytoshi> who knows what it'd be displaying
07:20 < andytoshi> no way to verify it
07:21 < Emcy> indeed
07:21 < Emcy> https://i.4cdn.org/vr/1608516545151.jpg cute
07:21 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (2500 x 1932) ]
07:27 < grubles> lol
07:30 < grubles> a lot of these CRTs on ebay are 1280x1024 which IMO is the best resolution
07:33 < queip> isn't it just some tube and 2 magnesses. how important it is to make the detailed mask with patterns versus just doing some glass + fluorescent layer
07:37 < Emcy> youll end up with some logie-baird era device if you dont try and make a shadow mask at least
07:48 < Emcy> https://boards.4channel.org/biz/thread/25042710/how-fucked-are-they#p25050084
07:48 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ /biz/ - How fucked are they? - Business & Finance - 4chan ]
07:48 < Emcy> .....
07:49 < Emcy> >I live in São Paulo near the fucking favela, it's starts like 500m from me. If I go to the police or buy a gun they'll fucking show up with 50 people with knives and guns and butcher me.
07:51 < Emcy> >no social presence
07:51 < Emcy> >not trace of my name on Google
07:51 < Emcy> >now address and name gets leaked because I was too lazy to order to a PO box
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07:53 < Emcy> yeah anyone on that list and in a second or quasi/third world jurisdiction like sao paolo needs to take active measures now
07:55 < belcher> nice thread
07:55 < belcher> sorry for slandering 4chan the other day, its good sometimes
07:56 < waxwing> lol the very last line of that thread: "imagine installing updates to your hardware wallet for some obscure shitcoin functionality"
07:56 < waxwing> one of us :)
07:57 < Old_Man> So if I understand the basics of computer security, and how to apply the scientific method to it, unlike 95% of the cryptocurrency world... how should I go about monetizing my training people on how to store their cryptocurrencies intelligently?
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07:58 < waxwing> you don't, what you monetize is get rich quick schemes and braindead consumerist rubbish like "just buy this gizmo and you're secure!".
07:59 < Old_Man> I figure if I can make like 1% of Ledger's revenue, and basically have 0 satoshis of expenses (because I already have raspberry pis and microSDs and such), that should enable me to buy all the bitcoins I wanted to, but didn't, because I was too risk-averse, five years ago.
07:59 < Emcy> hardware wallets are still better than using your windows xp machine to store crypto though
07:59 < belcher_> how about a 2of2 multisig with windows xp and the other key on your smartphone
08:00 < Old_Man> People still use windows in 2020?
08:00 < Emcy> but they do give an unearned air of objectively high security, and thats nearly all because of marketing
08:00 < Old_Man> How 20th-century. Proprietary operating systems. Hahahaha
08:00 < belcher_> multisig security is additive
08:00 < belcher_> hardware wallet is not as good as multisig(hardware wallet, windows xp)
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08:01 < belcher_> also, multisig was envisioned by satoshi but not hardware wallets... multisig is satoshi's vision :p
08:01 < waxwing> security vulnerabilities are additive too :) what if ledger AND trezor have your address :)
08:01 < belcher_> s/security vulnerabilities/data leaks/
08:01 < grubles> aren't XP boxes literally owned the second they touch the internet though
08:01 < belcher_> agreed, then you should use software wallets only
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08:02 < grubles> why couldn't we work to be able to create wallets, sign transactions, etc all using reallllly old computer hardware
08:02 < belcher> that 4channer from sao paulo says he's leaving town for a week
08:05 < belcher> my thread is near the top of r/bitcoin yessss
08:10 < belcher> btw, i also reckon those steel backups for seed phrases are also not that great, changemymind.jpg
08:10 < belcher> you can get a pencil and paper from anywhere, and obtaining them isnt evidence that you own btc
08:11 < belcher> people test those steel plates again crushing, i guess the idea is after an earthquake? has anyone seen what collapses houses after an earthquake look like? it seems unlikely you'll be rummaging through the rubble.. more likely a bulldozer will come and flatten it
08:12 < grubles> i thought they're more useful for being fireproof
08:12 < grubles> and water proof i guess
08:13 < belcher> fair enough for floods i guess... though burned-out houses are also a big mess, admittedly more easily rummaged through
08:14 < belcher> however if you use multiple paper backups in many locations you're protected from all that and also more
08:20 < Emcy> why not just get a nice letter punch set
08:20 < Emcy> and go find a chunk of steel plate from your local scrapyard
08:21 < belcher> that does avoid the problem of providing evidence that you own btc
08:21 < Emcy> is there a reason why people buy the 'cryptosteel' type products instead of just getting some punches...
08:21 < belcher> shills on social media?
08:21 < grubles> kind of the same reason why you don't use an old laptop to store btc
08:21 < grubles> people tend towards the lazy side of things
08:23 < Emcy> buy punches pay cash
08:23 < Emcy> little while later go to the scrapyard
08:23 < waxwing> it's not only laziness, it's also the comfort of being in the herd, and having a figure of authority telling you you're doing the right thing
08:23 < waxwing> but sure time constraint plays in too.
08:24 < belcher> idk about time, when people get into bitcoin they usually spend weeks just reading
08:24 < belcher> all that "research" is why they even got the idea to buy cryptosteels
08:24 < grubles> yeah the authority thing is valid i guess
08:26 < waxwing> i think time constraint does play in, in the sense that there are people who would consider themselves capable of figuring this all out in detail, but they have full time jobs etc and can't find time to even get comfortable with linux for example
08:26 < waxwing> let alone hardware geekery
08:27 < belcher> electrum's multisig of computer+smartphone is pretty easy to use for newbs i reckon
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09:25 < andytoshi> lol the punches take forever to use, plus the last time i tried to use one i imprinted the letter on both sides of the plate
09:26 < andytoshi> i think if your security model involves avoiding all "bitcoin paraphanelia" you're going much further than most users would care to go
09:26 < belcher> the time taken is ok though? you only make a seed phrase a couple of times in your life
09:27 < andytoshi> yeah that's fair
09:28 < belcher> when i wrote my seed phrases i wrote them carefully in block capitals and very large letters, took longer than writing normally but was worth it ofc
09:28 < andytoshi> lol mine literally has misspellings/words i can't read, and i just have to remember that
09:28 < andytoshi> your strategy was probably more reasonable
09:28 < belcher> why lol
09:28 < belcher> ah well if it was important im sure you'd fix it
09:29 < andytoshi> so, it's actually dumber than that
09:29 < andytoshi> i was using a cryptosteel type product and i was too lazy to re-slot all the letters once i notieced a few were wrong
09:29 < andytoshi> i.e. i tested the recovery, it didn't work, and i just ground through the possibilities
09:29 < andytoshi> rather than redoing it
09:30 < andytoshi> as with many things, i thought "well this is just the first time, i'll learn some more and redo it once i know the right thing to do"
09:30 < andytoshi> then "i'll redo it when csv activates ... no, when segwit ... no, when descriptor wallets ... no, when taproot" and ofc there'll always be some future thing that'll make my addresses better
09:31 < andytoshi> and unlike many things, even though there is a giant pile of money on the line, i can't outsource it
09:35 < Sharkeisha> Not your keys, not your bitcoin cash
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09:43 < lndbot> <bvu> test
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10:01 < gmaxwell> Sharkeisha: you're out of date man, people sold most of that shitcoin years ago.
10:03 < Sharkeisha> gmaxwell: but did u sell the top tho?
10:04 < Old_Man> I just abandoned mine. They're *trying* to be what Gresham's Law refers to as "bad money."
10:17 < gmaxwell> Sharkeisha: mostly, also a good chunk at about half of the top. Bits at other prices.
10:27 < belcher> " Damn do I feel violated. Like really violated! Extremely violated even. I’m not sure what to do besides move, change phone numbers and email. Buying a Ledger fucked up my life." oh dear
10:28 < belcher> "It’s basically an episode of black mirror." lol
10:31 < grubles> old laptop users unaffected :/
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10:42 < Sharkeisha> gmaxwell: did we just become best friends?
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10:43 < Sharkeisha> belcher: unaffected if you use an abandoned house for a mail drop
10:43 < belcher> using an old laptop seems much easier than that
10:44 < Sharkeisha> Lolwut
10:44 < Sharkeisha> You literally just go pick up your package
10:44 < Old_Man> Sharkeisaha, how old are you?
10:44 < belcher> you wont find any abandoned houses in populated areas
10:44 < belcher> if anything you'll find housing shortages and high rents lol
10:44 < Sharkeisha> Yeah right, is that really what you believe?
10:44 < belcher> lots of urban centers around the world are seeing that, not abandoned houses
10:45 < Sharkeisha> There's probably a vacant or abandoned place within a mile of you.
10:45 < Old_Man> Sharkeisha, you seem to be new to intelligent conversation, and to understanding how the world works outside of your neighborhood. Are you greater than or less than 18 years of age?
10:45 < Sharkeisha> Old_Man: I'm very young
10:45 < Old_Man> Thought so.
10:45 < Sharkeisha> I'm not sure why you think I'm new to intelligent conversation
10:45 < Sharkeisha> That's kind of a rude thing to say.
10:45 < Old_Man>  Sharkeisha> Lolwut
10:46 < Old_Man> People don't say that when they have an intelligent refutation to make.
10:46 < Old_Man> That's filler text that *replaces* intelligent conversation.
10:46 < Sharkeisha> I'm intelligent though.
10:46 < Old_Man>  Sharkeisha> Yeah right, is that really what you believe?
10:46 < Sharkeisha> Maybe not the most intelligent, but I'm ok. I get by.
10:46 < Old_Man> Same with that.
10:47 < Old_Man> Intelligent people don't waste the time to make scoffing-but-meaningless ejaculations. They get to the point of providing their evidence of their opinion.
10:47 < Sharkeisha> To be fair Old_Man this whole channel is kind of a big troll on bitcoin cash, gold, diamond, etc.
10:47 < Old_Man> No it isn't.
10:47 < Sharkeisha> Agree to disagree.
10:48 < Old_Man> It's long been populated by people who have made very intelligent refutations of claims made by proponents of those coins.
10:48 < Sharkeisha> I'm capable of having intelligent conversations.
10:48 < Old_Man> If you can't live up to that norm, then maybe listening and learning would do better than to spew opinions that you eventually have to handwave away any justification by insisting on "agreeing to disagree."
10:49 < Old_Man> Don't tell me you're capable of having intelligent conversations. SHOW me you're capable of having intelligent conversations.
10:49 < Old_Man> Or, maybe just listen and learn for a while.
10:49 < Sharkeisha> Listen, using drops to receive mail anonymously is a thing.
10:49 < Sharkeisha> That's just a fact of life.
10:49 < Old_Man> How commonly?
10:50 < Old_Man> Maybe for people who live in shit neighborhoods like you, it's an everyday occurrence.
10:50 < Sharkeisha> I have no idea, nor do I care. In fact, I might rather prefer it were very rare.
10:50 < Old_Man> Maybe for people who live in peaceful and desirable neighborhoods, that's very unreliable.
10:50 < Sharkeisha> See, now you're just insulting me again.
10:51 < Old_Man> I imagine the presentation of an opinion for which you have no evidence, and for which "I have no idea, nor do I care" about the practicality, you will probably find most refutations of it to be insulting to you.
10:51 < Old_Man> To spare yourself so many hurt feelings, maybe just listen and learn for a while.
10:51 < Emcy> andytoshi how the hell did you imprint both sides of the plate, did you hit it with a trawlermans sledgehammer
10:52 < Emcy> thats impressive m8
10:52 < Sharkeisha> You haven't refuted anything though. There are many other ways to receive packages Old_Man.
10:52 < Old_Man> Sharkeisha, intelligent conversationalists are willing to discuss the practicality of implementing those methods. They never fall back on the ol' copout, "I have no idea, nor do I care."
10:53 < Old_Man> If you don't have any idea, nor do you care, then just keep that opinion to yourself. Easy-cheesy.
10:54 < Sharkeisha> It doesn't really matter. I know that there are methods of receiving mail privately, without revealing your identity. I don't need to reveal then to you for that to be true and practical.
10:54 < Old_Man> But you *do* need to reveal them to me (and to the whole world) for anyone to care about your opinion, or to believe that you are in any way credible.
10:55 < Old_Man> "I have brilliant evidence, support, and refutation but I'm not going to show you" is just the coward's way of saying you have no evidence, refutation, or support.
10:55 < Old_Man> Or the intellectually stunted way to say it.
10:56 < Sharkeisha> That's not true at all. Why would I go through the process of qualifying something I know to be true anymore than belcher would qualify that it is not true -- that you can receive packages privately?
10:57 < Sharkeisha> Under that standard I should have to qualify that most people have breakfast in the morning.
10:57 < Old_Man> I just answered that for you. It's so you build credibility so that other people will care about your opinion.
10:57 < Old_Man> If you don't care to be believed by other people, then simply stop talking to them. Duh.
10:57 < belcher> fwiw i banned Sharkeisha for 2-3 days on #bitcoin back a couple of days ago, for similar annoying trolling
10:57 < Old_Man> Stop sharing your opinion, if you're going to insist that your opinion remain useless.
10:58 < Sharkeisha> If anyone is trolling right now it is you.
10:58 < Old_Man> Oh god, he comes from like facebook or instagram or somewhere where the word "troll" has been dumbed down to mean, "anyone who disagrees with me."
10:59 < Sharkeisha> Ironic, since that's about the depth of your claim that I am trolling.
10:59 < Old_Man> I gave you very specific things that you could do to build credibility, and warned you about your mannerisms that destroy your credibility.
11:00 < Old_Man> If you can't understand the simple explanations that I've given to you, that doesn't make me a "troll." That just makes you intellectually stunted.
11:00 < Sharkeisha> I could enumerate ways that you can receive packages privately, but then you'd just say 'no, that can't work. No, this only works in your ghetto neighborhood.'
11:00 < Sharkeisha> So what's the point?
11:01 < Old_Man> You're putting words in other people's mouths. Maybe some of the methods are useful, in more widespread real-world contexts.
11:01 < Old_Man> You only offered up the one method, and as I said, it's probably very reliable in your ghetto neighborhood.
11:01 < Old_Man> But, amateur radio operators use PO boxes quite frequently, and that works very well in their contexts.
11:02 < Old_Man> But you aren't capable of having an intelligent conversations about different use cases in different contexts.
11:02 < Sharkeisha> belcher made a sideways comment about ledger losing custody of their customers' private details. I suggested that a method of receiving packages privately would prevent it. Then you insinuated that I live in a shit neighborhood. And now here we are and you're accusing me of trolling because apparently I'm more creative than you think is possible.
11:03 < belcher> Old_Man why amateur radio operators need PO boxes?
11:03 < Old_Man> FACT CHECK: WRONG. I only criticized the *one* method of receiving packages privately that you named. You were unable to go on to discuss any of the other methods.
11:03 < belcher> my point is more that with software wallets you can obtain them over the internet without giving out too many details
11:03 < Old_Man> blecher: because the FCC publishes their addresses online for all the world to see.
11:03 < belcher> ahh
11:03 < Old_Man> s/blecher/belcher/ sorry
11:03 < grubles> you can look up anyone's call sign
11:03 < belcher> oh right yes, radio is regulated
11:03 < belcher> you cant just broadcast anything how you want
11:03 < grubles> no definitely not
11:04 < Sharkeisha> Well, you can for a while provided you have the equipment.
11:04 < Sharkeisha> It certainly isn't legal to do so.
11:04 < Sharkeisha> Or may not be.
11:04 < belcher> any idea whats the deal with marine radio / radio sets on ships, do they need call signs as well? im pretty sure iv seen marine radio sets in stores that you presumably just buy
11:04 < Old_Man> Oh look; the guy who couldn't name any other methods of keeping his address private now wants to share an opinion about pirate radio broadcasting.
11:05 < Old_Man> belcher, don't know about the rules of licensure, but in the US you can buy any radio for any frequency range off-the-shelf, for the most part.
11:05 < grubles> yeah you can just buy them off amazon but to transmit you technically need a license
11:05 < Old_Man> The FCC tries to crack down on people selling amplifiers for the 27 MHz band (Citizens Band), but anything can be built fairly simply.
11:06 < belcher> ah right, so buying them is fine but you're expected to get paperwork before you start using it
11:06 < grubles> but there are certain bands that don't require a license. like what a gotenna uses or the family oriented walkie talkie radios that are limited in transmit power and what frequencies they can tune to
11:07 < Old_Man> belcher, it's worth mentioning one more legal quirk: in the US it's legal to use your shiny new radio to *listen* to almost any band. I mention that because in some countries that's not true.
11:07 < belcher> even listening? lol that seems unenforceable
11:07 < Old_Man> I think it's Australia, listening to police bands is illegal, for example, and just *having* a radio capable of it can get you in trouble.
11:08 < Old_Man> Well the US I think still has a few of those rules where the old analog cellphone spectrum is concerned.
11:08 < belcher> then again, famously in soviet-occupied eastern europe it was illegal to listen to stations like radio free europe for a while
11:08 < Old_Man> Scanners had to block out those frequency ranges.
11:08 < belcher> so it could be unenforcable but they still might try
11:08 < Old_Man> Nodnod. I think that's the case in Australia still.
11:08 < andytoshi> belcher: in most US cities, even crowded ones, you can definitely find abandoned houses. my concern would be more that the post office would refuse to deliver to one rather than that i couldn't find one
11:08 < andytoshi> though i've definitley considered doing this before
11:09 < belcher> andytoshi even somewhere like SF?
11:09 < andytoshi> hmm, yeah, probably not in the bay area
11:09 < andytoshi> that's fair
11:09 < belcher> i think id have a pretty hard time finding abandoned buildings in london, if anything they'd have squatters in
11:09 < Old_Man> andytoshi: there's still the issue of, can you retrieve it from the doorstep within ten minutes (or however long such packages last on doorsteps in such neighborhoods)
11:09 < belcher> people build sheds and rent them out illegally
11:09 < andytoshi> well, a house with squatters in it might also work :P as long as you're quick to get the mail
11:09 < belcher> yep true
11:10 < Sharkeisha> Old_Man: I'm sure that people from my shit, ghetto neighborhood go to your well-to-do white, suburban enclave and steal packages. Probably local businesses know this and might be willing to allow you to send certain high value gifts there during the holidays, for example.
11:10 < andytoshi> that's also true, just asking local businesses might work (though again, in places like SF i doubt it, they're too low-trust)
11:10 < andytoshi> but the town that i grew up in, i'm certain that if i went to the haircut guys or something and asked if i could get a package they'd have no problem with it
11:10 < Old_Man> Sharkeisha: please share your ever-so-credible opinion with me more :D
11:10 < Sharkeisha> Lol whatever
11:11 < Old_Man> There's that useless ejaculation again.
11:11 < Sharkeisha> I'm just trying to help people not get owned like has happened with ledger
11:11 < Sharkeisha> That's not trolling
11:11 < andytoshi> Sharkeisha: in seriousness, i really did have an anonymous mailbox for a while, and the way i did it was by "legally" renting a PO box at a convenience store
11:11 < Sharkeisha> That's a great idea, andytoshi
11:11 < belcher> download a software wallet and use that
11:11 < andytoshi> where the only id checks the didnt-speak-english guy did on me was asking me to write my name and # on a pad of paper
11:12 < andytoshi> and i gave him a wad of cash. i was on CCTV of course so i wasn't really anonymous, but there's no chance someone who got ahold of the ledger leaks would've traced that address to me
11:12 < Sharkeisha> There's probably all kinds of ways to get mail. I don't pretend to know all of them, not do I advocate any of them.
11:13 < Old_Man> Even a PO box would have done the trick. The post office does not give physical addresses of PO box renters to third parties.
11:13 < Old_Man> So that would have been sufficient, and far more secure than hoping to beat the porch pirates to your package at an abandoned house.
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11:14 < Sharkeisha> You could write a bad address on a package and it would still wind up in your local postal system where you could retrieve it.
11:14 < Old_Man> Or renting a PO box would have worked just fine. I might have mentioned that.
11:14 < Sharkeisha> Yes, a PO box is a great option.
11:14 < Old_Man> And it would be more reliable than writing a bad address and hoping to retrieve it.
11:14 < Sharkeisha> But you were mean to me so now we're not friends anymore.
11:15 < Old_Man> Correct. My friends tend to be fairly intelligent.
11:32 < DeanWeen> In the us you can also get packages to "YOUR NAME\nGENERAL DELIVERY" with the zip of the post office and go pick it up at the post office
11:34 < DeanWeen> private mailboxes at things like a UPS store and the like would also work in this situation (of course you have to give ID like to the post office but common thugs aren't likely to get access to the records)
11:34 < phantomcircuit> https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery
11:34 < phantomcircuit> neat
11:35 < Sharkeisha> TheButterZone will let you mail a package to his address for just 0.0001337 btc
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11:49 < DeanWeen> re licenses, strangely enough where andytoshi lives there's a pirate radio station (90.1 fm) run by Texas Liberty Radio that's been on the air without a license for >10 years.  They are talk radio shows including the shows of a bunch of pro se non-lawyers who always seem to defeat the legal efforts to shut them down.  They used to broadcast on 89.1 until the FCC licensed another station on that channel so they moved to 90.1 around 8ish
11:49 < DeanWeen> years ago iirc and are still on to this day.  Just don't tune in at lunchtime or you'll hear alex jones screaming at you.
11:49 < gmaxwell> It's unclear how they manage to keep operating, FCC shuts down pirate stations pretty commonly.
11:50 < DeanWeen> I also am not quite clear on that.  They've had several legal battles, and even people cutting their transmitting power cables and damaging their equipment
11:51 < gmaxwell> Private mailboxes are required by the patriot act to collect your physcal address, unfortunately because you certantly can't count on anyone to not be social engineered into giving it up.
11:51 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, if it's the people im thinking of the answer is probably that they would actually bring a lawsuit all the way to the supreme court and the fcc would rather not deal with them
11:51 < gmaxwell> What I recommend is that if you're moving, open a private mailbox convient to your new location before moving an use your old address to set it up.
11:52 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well for other operators they've come in with armed federal marshalls to seize equipment.
11:52 < Old_Man> UPS store doesn't even list prices for its boxes. That's a bad sign.
11:52 < gmaxwell> Old_Man: my expirence is that they're expensive for what they are but aren't very expensive.
11:53 < Old_Man> I looked into it for ham; USPS PO boxes are a couple hundred a year... not worth it.
11:53 < gmaxwell> The place I use was less expensive than the ups store, I pay by the year for an extra large box and its like $230/year.
11:53 < DeanWeen> Old_Man UPS store is pretty expensive imo (iirc like $20/mo for the smallest box).. you can find probably half their price at a more mom-n-pop type operation
11:53 < Old_Man> So what would you guess, for a UPS box? Less than $250? Less than $500?
11:53 < gmaxwell> I think the small bo is more like $120 per year.
11:54 < gmaxwell> (at the non-ups store, ups prices are about 2x)
11:54 < Old_Man> That's not too bad I guess. UPS is a lot closer to my house than USPS, probably has friendlier hours too.
11:54 < Old_Man> And they'd probably be a lot better about accepting packages, I imagine.
11:54 < gmaxwell> you don't want to use a USPS box generally.
11:54 < gmaxwell> They won't accept arbritary packages from fedex/ups, and also everyone knows a PO box is a po box.
11:55 < gmaxwell> vs some other mailbox you can get most things to just accept it as your address.
11:55 < Old_Man> Yeah, that was what I was imagining.
11:55 < gmaxwell> For that purpose more obscure mailbox services are better too.
11:55 < Old_Man> Maybe if I get busy with these ham events I'll spring for the UPS box.
11:56 < Old_Man> My nearest UPS store is in a strip mall, so it's pretty clear it's a business address, like "Unit D" or something. Still perfectly fine for ham stuff, but I wouldn't try to pass it off as my own business's address or anything like that. :)
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12:01 < DeanWeen> phantomcircuit, gmaxwell: It is these guys (and others) who do the legal battles: https://ruleoflawradio.com/  You can call into their show and ask how they defend it in court, I'm sure they'll tell you fun stories.  That guy Randy Kelton is pretty funny, has lots of good pro se court stories.
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12:16 < gmaxwell> apparently part of how they were operating is that their transmitter was on a tower at the former sheriff's property.
12:20 < DeanWeen> I think phantomcircuit is right, I'm sure they have some compelling argument for the fcc being unconstitutional or something, and they are defintely the types that will take it there themselves
12:29 < Emcy> imagine how much free drugs squatters get lol
12:37 < gmaxwell> DeanWeen: their argument basically is that if the airwaves are unused and not interfearing with anything then the FCC is acting outside of their remit to stop them.
12:38 < Sharkeisha> Old_Man: I forgive you for doubting me. I know you probably have a bunch of old man pain that you're freaking with, that makes you so curmudgeonly.
12:40 < Emcy> gmaxwell seems reasonable actually?
12:41 < Sharkeisha> gmaxwell is really smart, like jeopardy smart
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12:41 < Emcy> is the FCC supposed to own the whole god given radio spectrum?
12:44 < Old_Man> Sharkeisha, sorry, why was I supposed to care about your opinion again? In my elderliness, I forgot.
12:44 < Old_Man> Had you gotten around to saying something intelligent at some point, to redeem yourself?
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12:46 < Sharkeisha> FCC might be the least of your worries. Let some Ham radio operators find out you're not on the right frequency. They'll come after you with spectrum analyzers and break your antennas, cut your cables, and snitch on you too.
12:47 < Sharkeisha> Like some kind of nerd mafia.
12:56 < midnight> gmaxwell: Re: that hardware wallet confiscation story. I wonder if it's possible/likely that interfering with confiscated goods is some kind of crime.
12:57 < midnight> argh you people have a lot of scrollback
12:58 < midnight> I'm like two days behind and have no idea wtf.
12:59 < Old_Man> There's a newbie in here who's really young and inexperienced at intelligent conversation, so most of it you can just gloss over. It's utterly without value.
13:01 < Sharkeisha> You are such a grump. Do you need a hug, man?
13:01 < Old_Man> ^^
13:01 < Emcy> https://www.moneycrashers.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/guides-renting-out-house-room-1068x713.jpg
13:01 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1068 x 713) ]
13:01 < Emcy> here i got you two fellas a room
13:01 < Emcy> a room thats not this one
13:02 < Emcy> you know what to do
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13:14 < midnight> gmaxwell: re: that doxxing thing. There's a dmurray in there. That's now "our" dmurray is it?
13:15 < andytoshi> midnight: i'm sure it woud be a crime if some TSA agent copied the keys and took the money
13:15 < andytoshi> but if I were a TSA agent i'm certain i could surreptitiously copy the key
13:15 < andytoshi> and nobody would ever be able to prove it was me
13:16 < andytoshi> this is a really interesting case because i suspect that customs took the bitcoin stuff assumnig either (a) it represented a pile of undeclared money, or (b) it was some weird encryption shit that the guy was being uncooperative about
13:16 < andytoshi> and i doubt anyone at the customs office actually knew what to do with it
13:16 < andytoshi> they likely just put it in an evidence locker and forgot about it
13:17 < Emcy> from what ive heard they hire real mouth breathers in TSA
13:17 < Emcy> who get caught attempting far less sophisticated shit than lifting a crypto wallet
13:18 < andytoshi> yeah, it's a (relatively) high paying job that has no skill or educational requirement. and they make a point of hiring veterans (and the military is also a relatively high-paying job where they'll even _give_ you education and training)
13:18 < andytoshi> so it attracts people who don't have a ton of other options
13:20 < Emcy> maybe they hire vets because they like having people who will do bad stuff to others and not question it
13:20 < Emcy> been a long time since the last just war
13:22 < Old_Man> Can't say I know too many vets who fit that description. Maybe a few more psychopaths than the 1% that make up the general population, but probably less than the 10% of them who make up law enforcement? :D
13:23 < andytoshi> yeah idk that many people have joined the military because they liked combat since WWI :P
13:23 < andytoshi> i mean, i'm sure there is an element of that
13:24 < andytoshi> but typically in the US you join the military because there is a culture around the uniform and the abstract notion of serving the country
13:24 < andytoshi> and/or for the free degree
13:24 < Emcy> when you says vets do you mean they actually got deployed, or just did a stint
13:25 < Old_Man> Some of the smartest infantrymen I served were like MBAs and triathletes and driven competitors, who just wanted to see if they could be as big a badass as they thought they were, but still wanted to focus their competitiveness to worthwhile goals.
13:25 < waxwing> a lot of people join for the financial security i've heard
13:25 < waxwing> some people have few other realistic options
13:25 < Old_Man> Joined the army, went to ranger school, just to test their mettle.
13:30 < Emcy> Old_Man i didnt any anything about psychopaths. the army knows how to break normal people down to follow just about any order. no pychos required.
13:31 < Emcy> i just said TSA probably like preferentially hiring people who already know how to follow orders
13:31 < Emcy> but i guess if vets includes people who just did a stint and wernt deployed my original point is moot
13:41 < Sharkeisha> Blanket characterizations probably aren't very useful there. Probably as many reasons for serving one's country as there are people who make that choice.
13:42 < Sharkeisha> Follow orders != do bad things to other people,  unquestioningly, because they're told to
13:43 < Sharkeisha> Which is really what you said.
13:50 < Emcy> no it means carry out orders regardless, even if the end result is bad, which it often is
13:51 < Emcy> like what TSA do every day with the security theatre and shooting people with mm waves
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13:51 < Sharkeisha> Out of curiosity, what is the concern about mm waves?
13:52 < gmaxwell> Military service is just a tremendous oppturnity for people who otherwise don't have any.  It'll take anyone, doesn't disciminate much, rewards hardwork, pays okay so long as you ignore the whole maybe getting killed and maybe having to kill people part.
13:52 < gmaxwell> and so long as you're okay with having no control over where you live / what you're doing / etc. for a long span of time-- which for some people is probably good news.
13:54 < Emcy> it definitely suits some people
13:55 < Veggen> I was in the army. We have sorta mandatory military duty in Norway, though today it's more or less only those who want to that still goes.
13:55 < Veggen> was more mandatory in my days, though, but even then skipping it wasn't like super-hard.
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14:42 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's not really true anymore that they'll take anyone. they'll take anyone who doesn't have a criminal record or documented history of mental illness or other medical issue
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14:52 < Old_Man> They're always adjusting it up and down, according to the needs of the current political fads. For example, they'll change the regulations about visible tattoos if they need to weed people out, to thin the ranks. And when they need more troops, they allow visible tattoos again. Etc.
14:55 < grubles> strange. i'm still getting that gpg error when updating tor browser.
14:55 < grubles> it says the key expired on the 14th
14:55 < grubles> EF6E286DDA85EA2A4BA7DE684E2C6E8793298290
14:57 < midnight> I think they also have an intelligence exam and if you're too dumb they don't take you either.
14:57 < midnight> Apparently really stupid people are the majority of friendly-fire problems.
14:57 < Sharkeisha> Or if you aren't remotely physically fit. That's not gonna work.
14:58 < Emcy> midnight i play NC so i know this already
14:58 < midnight> LOL
14:58 < midnight> Emcy: only a very few people would get that man
14:58 < Emcy> thats ok as long as someone does
14:58 < midnight> Emcy: I heard a great theory about it from someone I was playing with the other day; a personality theory of the three factions
14:59 < midnight> Emcy: It's infected my brain now and I can't stop thinking about it. It's helped my outrage a lot.
14:59 < phantomcircuit> midnight, as Old_Man said the requirements change
14:59 < Emcy> nc = yeehaw boys tr = fascist space commies vs = gay alien orgy
14:59 < phantomcircuit> in 2001 they were accepting basically anybody including former gang members
14:59 < phantomcircuit> cause actual war
15:00 < midnight> phantomcircuit: ah
15:01 < Emcy> anyway faction loyalty is dead, all the tryhards swap factions like underpants in a warzone
15:01 < Emcy> they even do it in the middle of alerts
15:02 < Old_Man> What game is that?
15:02 < midnight> Emcy: TR are like ants. They're not super bright. When an ant starts doing something weird (like sitting in the spawn room) they come up, poke it a few times, then kill it (because it must be sick). Some ants are out foraging -- which explains why you see MBT sitting out in the middle of nowhere driving aimlessly sometimes. And their primary focus is the acquisition of sugar. Sugar in this case is
15:02 < midnight> "busy fighting." Even at a significant loss. The ants go elsewhere. Collectively they can manage to build bridges. Alone you can just squish them.
15:02 < Emcy> tr do have strong zerg energy
15:03 < midnight> Emcy: TR ..  right. zerg. Army ants, man,.
15:03 < Emcy> im not suer what nc have....throw bodies at them until they run out of ammo
15:03 < midnight> Emcy: NC are humans, but unfortunately really stupid humans. They have better gear. Stronger guns. But because they're human, they feel fear and often underappreciation and resentment.
15:04 < midnight> Emcy: VS are smart, elite humans, but ultra-selfish. KD actually means something to them, so when their zerg shows even slight signs of stopping, they instantly dissolve into chaos and disappear or switch fac.
15:04 < Emcy> yeah the amount of fucking command channel bitching during alerts from NC. theyre all frazzled
15:04 < midnight> Only elite humans think other humans are lesser-- which is why being an alien monster appeals to them.
15:05 < midnight> And there. Virtually every interaction in the game explained.
15:05 < Emcy> what appeals to them is the betelgeuse
15:05 < Emcy> point and click adventure main builds
15:05 < midnight> Yeah but what kind of person picks a fac because the guns are better?
15:05 < Emcy> thats how i chose nc
15:06 < midnight> NC has bullet drop. You didn't pick the superior weaponry. :)
15:06 < Emcy> nc guns guns are stronk, unfortunately they actually require aim and nc itself are dumbos
15:06 < midnight> See, you're actually a natural TR.
15:06 < Emcy> well its too late now
15:07 < midnight> ITS NEVER TOO LATE TO JOIN THE ANTS I MEAN TR.
15:07 < Emcy> tr is full of fuckin russians tho
15:07 < midnight> Because the Russians are a hive.
15:07 < midnight> Natural TR fac, man.
15:07 < Emcy> i have tr alt
15:08 < Emcy> i have all the alts
15:08 < midnight> I gotta find out where that theory came from and tell them they're a genius ahh ha ha
15:08 < Emcy> the real reason tho is that they fucked up and didnt randomise the faction picker list for years ago years
15:08 < midnight> I've infected you now. The next time you see a lightning driving out in the middle of nowhere on Hossin you're gonna be like "damn midnight was right"
15:09 < Emcy> so you get impatient swine who just hammer 'next' until they get to shoot stuff, and doing that puts you in nc
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15:09 < midnight> The lightning will also pluck you straight out of the sky with two AP, too. Like he's a badass. But what's he even doing out in the forest?!
15:09 < midnight> He's exploring. Foraging. And finding routes for later because he's done fighting but he's still being useful.
15:10 < midnight> Marking it with the equivalent of scent markers for the other TR.
15:10 < Emcy> i see a lot of 2/2 prowlers completely offside
15:10 < midnight> SEE!!
15:10 < Emcy> just roaming around shelling unsuspecting tanks in the ass
15:10 < midnight> 98% predictive accuracy man
15:11 < Emcy> tr have a lot of bolt fuckers too for some reason
15:11 < Emcy> theres this one guy who seems to be immune from flinch and he has hundreds of hours just bolting
15:12 < midnight> Those are the military imports who love wargames.
15:13 < midnight> But they just want a calm crowsnest somewhere and they sit there with a gun..  up in the hills behind.. like.. Allatum. Plucking off dudes at TI.
15:13 < grubles> qubenix: you sure that tor key hasn't expired?
15:14 < midnight> Emcy: TR will keep fighting at a total standstill zerg. Forever. Because the sugar is the fight to them. TR are crowntards. Because ants have the intelligence of ants, man.
15:14 < midnight> "Yay we have the crown. Best sugar on Indar!"
15:14 < Emcy> crown isnt what it used to be
15:15 < midnight> Oh did they fix it on PC?
15:15 < Emcy> its been years
15:15 < midnight> boo
15:15 < Emcy> they removed rock bridge
15:15 < midnight> WHAT
15:15 < midnight> noooo
15:15 < Emcy> its gone
15:15 < Emcy> ti alloys is the new crown
15:15 < midnight> omg. That's the crappiest thing I've heard all day.
15:16 < Emcy> all day every day indar its ti alloys
15:16 < Emcy> how old is your game its been like this for like 2 years
15:16 < Emcy> ti alloys clusterfuck
15:16 < midnight> Emcy: You ever see those special parts on cliffs where prowlers just drive off?
15:16 < Emcy> OS every 3 5 minutes
15:17 < Emcy> more bullets shot thru a single doorway in the back than in ww2
15:17 < midnight> LOL
15:18 < midnight> There's whole chunks of specific-height cliffs where you can just drive off a cliff, flip exactly over, land on your tracks, and then keep going.
15:19 < Emcy> pro strat
15:19 < midnight> It's awesome when you see a column do it.
15:19 < Emcy> now they just sit on the west cliff at crown and shell the fuck out of the ti alloys orgy
15:19 < midnight> It's even more awesome when one of them gets it wrong and hesitates, and then all the ones behind him die too
15:21 < midnight> But, see, they're ants. And sugar is fun stuff, and wrecking a column because someone screwed up is objectively funny, so. They laugh about it.
15:21 < midnight> Can you imagine a VS outfit laughing about a junior screwing up a tank column?
15:21 < Emcy> they laugh in russian
15:22 < midnight> Elite humans don't laugh. They're so selfish that at the expense of everyone else they overlord it.
15:22 < midnight> And ragequit because they can't believe someone would be such a bad player. lol
15:22 < midnight> "Who let him in the outfit!?  How dare they!"
15:22 < midnight> lolol
15:23 < Emcy> VS completely destroyed the outfit wars alpha by stacking all the good players on the entire server
15:23 < Emcy> it was a fucking forfiet
15:23 < Emcy> i dont think outfit wars will ever come back now
15:23 < Emcy> vs is cancerous
15:23 < midnight> See? A selfish elite player has zero concept of *a fun game*.
15:24 < Emcy> they dont have fun they just cheese and minmax KDR
15:24 < nanotube> <gmaxwell> I'm going to write my response tomorrow, if people here would like to help I could share the list of bullet points I'm hoping to address. -- I'd love suggestitons for important points I'm missing or supporting examples. <- https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks may be good start. i'd be glad to help review.
15:24 < Entitlement> nanotube - [ GitHub - jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks: A list of known attacks against Bitcoin... ]
15:24 < midnight> The original layout I think was built to attract the cancer players and segregate them off into irrelevance.
15:25 < midnight> Until.  like.. Wrel.
15:25 < midnight> So.
15:27 < Emcy> at leas the campaign MMO stuff is fairly interesting
15:27 < Emcy> do you even have that shit on ps4
15:27 < midnight> Probably not. What's that?
15:29 < Emcy> the shattered warpgate
15:30 < midnight> oh
15:32 < Emcy> easmir north warpgate exploded and its 'frozen in time' or whatever
15:32 < Emcy> https://www.ps2-news.com/uploads/posts/2020-09/1599219718_shatter.jpg
15:32 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1920 x 1080) ]
15:32 < Emcy> so now theres a quest system, like a proper MMO
15:34 < Emcy> is that on ps4 or are they letting yall console peasants languish again
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15:36 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/SEC_News/status/1341477833810522114?s=20
15:36 < Emcy> rekt
15:37 < Emcy> sec thinks ripple people made 1.3bn dollars
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15:52 < DeanWeen> https://i.redd.it/4gf3va8ayq661.png a funny roger ver email.  It's funny to seem him try so hard.
15:52 < Entitlement> DeanWeen - [ png (1770 x 1379) ]
15:59 < Old_Man> Those fees are higher than paypal's.
15:59 < DeanWeen> And is he even the founder of bitcoin.com?  I thought he bought it
16:00 < midnight> Emcy: who knows. Weird Nazi propaganda terms always apply idk
16:00 < Old_Man> I send real, immediately-spendable USD to people for absolutely free. And USD is accepted by more vendors than BCH.
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16:01 < midnight> Is there any actual teeth to this charge or is it going to be another Erik Voorhees "gawsh $50k ouch" fines?
16:02 < midnight> DeanWeen: He says he bought it from the old owner. He did create the website into a thing I think.
16:02 < midnight> He's lying about being the first to fund businesses.
16:02 < midnight> But whatever.
16:03 < phantomcircuit> DeanWeen, roger is not the original owner of bitcoin.com
16:03 < phantomcircuit> (i am 100% certain)
16:03 < Emcy> yeah hes not
16:03 < Emcy> im pretty sure i remember when it was parked for a while
16:03 < midnight> Yes.
16:04 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, yes i'm not shitting when i say im 100% certain
16:06 < midnight> scummy also-ran bitcoin tld saying desktop wallets not secure enough.
16:06  * midnight mutters.
16:06 < Old_Man> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88.msg806#msg806
16:06 < Entitlement> Old_Man - [ who is bitcoin.com ]
16:06 < midnight> People are *still* arguing with me about using hardware wallets.
16:06 < Emcy> >btc is just riding the brand reputation of bitcoin built up by people like me
16:06 < Emcy> telling af, imo
16:06 < midnight> Didn't help when wizsec posted that "even with magnetic oscillation and psu fan speed blah blah"
16:06 < Old_Man> Put a raspberry pi i a bitcoin-branded case and sell it to them as a "hardware wallet."
16:07 < midnight> Emcy: yeah except that one time when he took funds on behalf of core and just pocketed them.
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16:07 < Emcy> he always thought bitcoin survived the early years because of him
16:07 < midnight> Emcy: or all those other times when he was a total asshole.
16:08 < Emcy> he still thinks bitcoin owem him its life, and everyone involved should be ever so grateful
16:08 < midnight> "The SEC's complaint, filed today in federal district court in Manhattan, charges defendants with violating the registration provisions of the Securities Act of 1933, and seeks injunctive relief, disgorgement with prejudgment interest, and civil penalties."
16:08 < midnight> Whoah disgorgement!
16:08 < Emcy> go fuck yourself you narcissist slime
16:08 < midnight> Hey maybe they will wreck the ripple execs.
16:08 < midnight> Does this mean no more paid shills invading ancient comment threads of mine from 5 years ago?
16:10 < midnight> XRP pumps and insta-dump arrives: https://twitter.com/Mtrl_Scientist/status/1341487033328553990/photo/1
16:10 < midnight> hah
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16:15 < phantomcircuit> midnight, the sawtooth in the xrp charts is from their settlement with jed
16:15 < phantomcircuit> every month or week or whatever he's allowed to sell a certain number of xrp
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16:15 < phantomcircuit> so like a clock they ensure that him dumping wont effect the price
16:22 < midnight> phantomcircuit: which sawtooth?  The middle one?
16:23 < midnight> or the top one. Like they pump the price and then jed dumps?
16:24 < midnight> Hey by the way, the glasgow is now on crowdsupply: https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/glasgow
16:24 < Entitlement> midnight - [ Glasgow Interface Explorer | Crowd Supply ]
16:32 < Emcy> what the fuck it costs 74,000 dollars for
16:32 < Emcy> o wait this is a crowdfund site lol
16:34 < phantomcircuit> midnight, yeah it's been pretty consistent historically
16:34 < phantomcircuit> they would pump the price such that jed dumping would bring it exactly back to where it was before
16:35 < phantomcircuit> since there used to be like 1 exchange i was trivial to do
16:35 < phantomcircuit> they were basically just paying him every month not to sell
16:35 < phantomcircuit> which kinda seems like money laundering or itself a securities violation or something to me
16:42 < phantomcircuit> oh boi
16:42 < phantomcircuit> https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/kibanw/has_ai_technology_gone_so_far/
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17:02 < belcher> yeah phantomcircuit that was spread around a lot a few months ago, heres the original uploader https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25GjijODWoI
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18:02 < phantomcircuit> am i missing something or is there no entry in VAERS for either covid-19 vaccine?
18:25 < DeanWeen> maybe jack dorsey is running VAERS now too
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19:06 < nanotube> oh i see belcher has already pasted that lopp physical attacks link >_> catching up on scrollback :)
19:11 < midnight> grr..  having trouble locating the nintendo leak
19:14 < midnight> .. wtf..?  ..lol *ninjas*?
19:16 < Sharkeisha> Can dogs be on the spectrum?
19:19 < Sharkeisha> I think my dog may be a little... you know... slow.
19:32 < gmaxwell> https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/kiddap/sec_files_lawsuit_against_ripple_and_two/ggrecch/
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19:41 < ossifrage> My sisters dog seems like that, but in reality he is just insanely lazy
19:42 < ossifrage> he is the extreme example of maximally stoner golden doodle
19:42 < ossifrage> This is a dog that forgot how to play with his toys
19:43 < ossifrage> My sister couldn't understand why he wasn't playing with all his toys, so she showed him and suddenly he remembered what toys where
19:46 < midnight> meh there is no spoon
19:55 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lul
19:55 < midnight> oo..  signing keys and security certificates?
19:56 < midnight> :-o
19:57 < gmaxwell> grubles: Want to post about vitalik lying about the premine? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25513938
19:57 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ >>You might assume that fact that they've subsequently lied and dissembled about... ]
20:00 < midnight> huh. there's a whole odd community around this stuff. wtf is "Glitch City Research Institute"
20:01 < midnight> weird pokemon stuff..
20:03 < midnight> .. this all reads as though it's just bad nintendo propaganda.
20:05 < queip> phantomcircuit: op me on bitcoin
20:06 < queip> actually wait, is this a bot or drunk
20:07 < phantomcircuit> huh uh
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20:12 < phantomcircuit> ap4lmtree> let me get a who gate
20:12 < phantomcircuit> interesting
20:20 < midnight> phantomcircuit: how so
20:21 < phantomcircuit> midnight, it's either a markov or a very drunk person
20:21 < midnight> oh. that kind of interesting.
20:21 < midnight> phantomcircuit: you ever see that awesome super-powered markov with a human behind it?
20:21 < kanzure> was it me?
20:21 < midnight> I doubt it.
20:22 < midnight> You showed me one but I think it was in response to me talking about the one that came in and was bugging (I think?) gmax.
20:24 < queip> phantomcircuit: -dev too
20:24 < midnight> kanzure: But I think I know the one you're talking about. Or was that you? I don't recall you saying it was you. :-D
20:24 < queip> thoooough
20:24 < queip> he is quite now, dunno lets wait I guess
20:24 < midnight> those channels are dead or dumpster fire, who cares
20:25 < midnight> I'm gonna shutter -dev soon anyway and just redirect everyone to #bitcoin.
20:25 < midnight> Fucking jgarzik anyway. I hate there wasn't any continuity.
20:26 < midnight> -dev was the place where artforz was.
20:29 < queip> continuity in what?
20:29 < kanzure> midnight: i was just joking, some people have accused me of being a markov bot
20:30 < kanzure> or other forms of sentience
20:30 < midnight> kanzure: You're a terrible markov bot!
20:30 < midnight> Way too coherent.
20:42 < midnight> :)
20:55 < midnight> wow these files are super boring and useless. lol who the heck is going to run *any* Windows executables from a freaking 4chan hack.
20:55 < midnight> like gimme a break.
20:56 < midnight> gmaxwell: in case it gets axed: https://archive.is/CFPP0 might be a helpful url
20:56 < Entitlement> midnight - [ nullc comments on SEC files lawsuit against Ripple and two executives, alleging ... ]
21:02 < midnight> The keys don't even work apparently.
21:04 < phantomcircuit> midnight, no what was it like
21:05 < midnight> phantomcircuit: It was glorious. One of those things where I was sure it was a bot, and then it would say something that totally confounded me. How could it have made that logical leap, it's impossible. Like the sorts of things that even talking to gpt3 don't give.
21:06 < midnight> And then the human would go away. I had a whole private conversation with the human aftereards because I was going on about how awesome the combination was after I concluded there was a human behind it after all.
21:07 < midnight> I might be mixing up that part with another session I read, but I *think*? it was the one where he asked not to tell the others and just let them interact naturally.
21:08 < midnight> btw: for triangulation purposes, be3a0196a36c1449e7918483047efbde04fe02711b3df4130b090449b399e1d6 1907a6543e63fe52f56afb2f6a71c07107926b0076e22ab4d76db56ff544aa24 f59e4f3d0e057dcca22755a2673f01e88af383da157ed977e8b59a88da7e8a25
21:08  * midnight shrugs
21:08 < midnight> garbage files. nothing of particular note in there.
21:10 < gmaxwell> midnight: did you see the stuff about XRP bribing exchanges to list their dogshit?
21:10 < midnight> gmaxwell: I saw you mention it. I didn't read what I'm assuming is a formal complaint doc somewhere.
21:10 < midnight> gmaxwell: I agree that exchanges are complicit. Was there a mention of payment to Kraken? Jesse said he doesn't take listing fees.
21:11 < midnight> (I'm presuming they just agree to wash trade tonnes and tonnes and thus the fees get taken out of the wash.)
21:11 < midnight> (XRP agrees I mean.)
21:15 < gmaxwell> Kraken listed XRP in 2013, so no.
21:15 < gmaxwell> But AFAICT the only two US exchanges to list XRP are coinbase and kraken. So I assume the payment to a US exchange mentioned in the doc is coinbase.
21:15 < gmaxwell> Maybe it was poloniex!
21:20 < midnight> hah
21:22 < gmaxwell> I think poloniex might have had ripple from day one.
21:24 < midnight> good ol' scamiex
21:32 < phantomcircuit> midnight, kraken doesn't need to take listing fees if they just list all the random trash they end up with a comical amount of volume
21:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ^ same reason poloniex
21:33 < midnight> yeh
21:42 < phantomcircuit> https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-threatens-to-veto-massive-covid-bill
21:42 < Entitlement> phantomcircuit - [ For coronavirus relief, Trump demands Congress increase direct payments to Ameri... ]
21:42 < phantomcircuit> lmao
21:42 < phantomcircuit> trump and AOC agree
21:42 < gmaxwell> Right well it's not clear if "list random trash" or "hold out for huge payoffs" makes more money.
21:43 < gmaxwell> they're only giving people $600??
21:44 < gmaxwell> ah $600 per sprog.
21:45 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah it's a $900b bill that's 5000 lines
21:45 < phantomcircuit> ;;calc 600 * 325
21:45 <@gribble> 195000
21:45 < phantomcircuit> 195 is kinda less than 900
21:45 < phantomcircuit> where's the rest of the money going?
21:55 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the fuck that speech was perfectly coherent and rational
21:55 < phantomcircuit> where was this guy 3 months ago
21:55 < phantomcircuit> lmao maybe he really didn't want to be president and it was all a ruze
21:55 < phantomcircuit> ruse
21:55 < phantomcircuit> word
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22:10 < queip> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/case-act-hidden-coronavirus-relief-bill-just-beginning-next-copyright-battle
22:10 < Entitlement> queip - [ The CASE Act Is Just the Beginning of the Next Copyright Battle | Electronic Fro... ]
22:19 < gmaxwell> man when I first saw someone sayin $600 I really thought the stimulus would be $600/month for some number of months.
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22:40 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah no it's straight up just $600
22:40 < phantomcircuit> apparently there's stuff in there for unemployment and stuff
22:49 < phantomcircuit> i mean that it's a 5000 line bill is insane
22:49 < phantomcircuit> it should be like two pages or something
22:49 < gmaxwell> 5,000 pages
22:50 < phantomcircuit> oh
22:50 < phantomcircuit> OH
22:52 < queip> 5000 pages of law text for 1 bill?
22:53 < queip> makes you wonder what else is passed in there, "because covid". Thanks democracy
22:54 < phantomcircuit> queip, apparently tons of random shit
22:54 < queip> maybe global leaders were like... Hey china, how you subdue billions of people so easily, can we do it?  And china was like: well people love to give up freedom in case of emergency... hmm I have an idea
22:55 < queip> who has the best research on that topic... hey Canada mind if our agent "steals" some info so we can get on it faster
22:59 < queip> meanwhile in [almost]ancap state: https://i.imgflip.com/4rduic.jpg
22:59 < Entitlement> queip - [ jpeg (583 x 428) ]
22:59 < queip> * https://i.imgflip.com/4rduk9.jpg
22:59 < Entitlement> queip - [ jpeg (583 x 428) ]
23:58 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/kin751/he_thought_my_house_was_his_friends_house_he_was/ggs27zr/
23:58 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Nessamess comments on He thought my house was his friend’s house... he was wrong... ]
23:59 < Emcy> have to sort by controversial for the obvious ethical question
23:59 < Emcy> like i knew i would
--- Log closed Wed Dec 23 00:00:33 2020