--- Log opened Mon Jan 04 00:00:06 2021
00:22 < Emcy> .price bch btc
00:22 < deb0rah> binance 0.01334600 [+23.70%] | bittrex 0.01334732 [+24.15%] | southxchange 0.01333333 [+24.05%] | hitbtc 0.01332700 [+23.87%] | bleutrade 0.01251000 [+12.59%] | graviex 0.01364752 [+20.96%] | poloniex 0.01336946 [+24.15%] | kraken 0.01332000 [+23.45%] |
00:23 < gmaxwell> wtf lol
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00:23 < Emcy> its cyclical
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00:59 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero merged pull request #4883: trivial: fix make rpc-format (master...small-fix) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4883
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00:59 < lnd-bot> [lnd] guggero pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/compare/f3b23b804614...faa399f942d5
00:59 < lnd-bot> lnd/master c171548 yyforyongyu: trivial: fix make rpc-format
00:59 < lnd-bot> lnd/master faa399f Oliver Gugger: Merge pull request #4883 from yyforyongyu/small-fix
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01:43 < gmaxwell> Market decided to make the FT article incorrect. :P
01:43 < gmaxwell> .price xmr usd
01:43 < deb0rah> hitbtc 135.11930000 [-2.49%] | kraken 135.05000000 [-2.36%] | southxchange 154.00000000 [+9.48%] |
01:43 < gmaxwell> .price zec usd
01:43 < deb0rah> hitbtc 57.61100000 [+0.74%] | kraken 57.74000 [+0.91%] | bittrex 56.76300000 [+1.33%] |
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04:45 < jpe> What's the right LND tag to check out to get the latest stable version?
05:04 < lndbot> <gugger> the latest stable is `v0.11.1-beta`. The next release is currently in RC, so it's not stable yet (v0.12.0-beta.rc3)
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06:47 < kanzure> can i have a moderator in -dev please?
06:59 < grubles> oh wow UK blocked Assange extradiction to the US
06:59 < queip> grubles: is this good or bad I can't tell
07:00  * queip thought they should extradicted to USA and then pardon by the Emperor. well another in long list of chances not taken
07:00 < queip> btw somenobody is ~sl@37.120.218.88 (sl) - probably _sam-- - is again being hostile to Bitcoin related developers in bitcoin-* and outside
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07:13 < Emcy> grubles what what
07:17 < Emcy> ok fuck
07:18 < Emcy> blocked on health grounds, US empire gets another appeal and assange goes back to belmarsh in the meanwhile
07:20 < Emcy> imagining he goes free in the UK....then what? he cant enver get on an aeroplace again if he knows whats good for him
07:20 < Emcy> aeroplane
07:21 < Emcy> does he stay here? or try to travel to russia by car?
07:21 < Emcy> he cant ever go home to australia again unless its by catamarang
07:24 < buZz> queip: correct, thats Sam
07:25 < buZz> queip: he doesnt have to be extradited to be pardoned, btw
07:25 < Emcy> he wont get pardoned by the US
07:26 < buZz> yeah, not close enough a relation to Epstein
07:27 < Emcy> in the end trump was a massive pussy who didnt pardon assange and snowden as a fuck you to the deep state, but did pardon a bunch of blackwater iraq murderbros from back in the day
07:27 < buZz> i've just seen him pardon all the people that were convicted following the evidence that Trump hired russia to manipulate facebook to get elected
07:27 < buZz> slowclap.wav
07:28 < Emcy> he never did a god damn thing about the culture war, except right at the end when he could spend culture war shit as electioneering capital
07:29 < Emcy> he just thought he could make economy number go up and absolutely everything else would work itself out, and the the virus happened and undid all that
07:29 < buZz> even his response to corona took what, 6 months before even acknowledging it?
07:29 < Emcy> what thef uck was the point of his presidency
07:29 < buZz> probably just a tax evasion
07:30 < Emcy> except the middle east and NK moves towards peace, and not starting a war while in office, that was pretty good
07:30 < Emcy> for a US president
07:33 < Emcy> ok now either assange is satoshi or John H
07:33 < Emcy> John Nash
07:34 < Emcy> thats good, more publicised candidates increases satoshis anonymity set
07:34 < buZz> i thought you ment John McAfee :P
07:34 < buZz> lol
07:35 < Emcy> yea why not
07:35 < buZz> :)
07:35 < queip> random GTA II moment. Well at least the insurance event report will be interesting.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQfGUqgsaY
07:37 < queip> Emcy: overall this virus is China winning over rest of the world by obliterating our economies due to our limpwristed politicians who can't either do one solid absolute lockdown, or open everything up, or let each city decide to do either of these as given set of citizen wants to
07:39 < queip> social isolation, blocking humans, and moving to incel/simp model probably goes up too.  Big tech wins as open source distributed solutions were not yet ready to compete with Zoom, Ticktock and such (Bitcoin being only exception)
07:46 < queip> showerthought, absolute lockdown is like moving to offline computer, Pfizer is like asking Bill G to install you antivirus to help with the problem (in theory a good thing and lots of research goes into it, but...)
07:51 < Veggen> I'm pretty optimistic wrt the rollout of vaccines. India and China will likely manage that pretty well on their own production capacity, with vaccines to spare, and there's plenty of good alternatives ramping up their production capacity.
07:52 < Veggen> fairly optimistic about a more normal summer holiday, although inside my own country, this year.
08:00 < queip> Emcy: main point of 1st term of Trump was to not have croocked hillary doing absolute maximum SJW shit for own personal goals. But don't worry, seems usa still can do just that now with Kamala
08:02 < midnight> It's incredible. Someone sold >$100k or more in USD for CAD on Kraken and the market order took them down to 1.02 for a conversion rate.
08:02 < midnight> They lost up to $0.25 on every american dollar they sold.
08:04 < midnight> (Current real exchange rate is 1.27425)
08:06 < buZz> rofl
08:07 < buZz> someone sucks at math :P
08:07 < midnight> The kraken interface is incredibly byzantine. It defaults to market orders: I think someone just wanted to sell their USD.
08:07 < midnight> It happens a lot. :(
08:08 < midnight> Even the BTCCAD market is soft. People are selling their bitcoins in the CAD market for a >$1000 loss per-coin!
08:09 < midnight> totally bonkers.
08:33 < buZz> people just forget to validate exchange prices to actual norms
08:33 < buZz> 'oh it has a CAD market, this must be good!'
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10:48 < Old_Man> Yet another story on slashdot about bitcoin, in which all the commenters are like, "it's based on nothing!"
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10:49 < Old_Man> I'd be willing to bet that if anyone said, "It's open source. So if it's based on nothing, download it, make whatever code mods you need to, and make yourself a few hundred bitcoin," they'd probably get downvoted.
10:50 < Old_Man> Commenters on Peter Schiff's facebook do the same thing. Except they can't downvote you to make you invisible, so they hurl their normal insults and then run away, like small childrne.
10:50 < Old_Man> s/childrne/children/
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11:06 < Old_Man> Well, congrats on a new all-time high. The 365-day moving average is above $11,000 now, for the first time in history.
11:07 < Old_Man> Also, the 365-day moving average value of bcash is below 2.65% for the first time in history. Way to go there, fellas. :D
11:10 < midnight> lol
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11:11 < midnight> Old_Man: It's very surprising to me to find there's a hardcore contingent of older geektypes who shit on Bitcoin actively. Like, yeah, I get that you don't value it, but now you're saying the opinion is an objective one? What, the current price and the billions of dollars pushed through it are just temporary delusions?
11:12 < midnight> Old_Man: One guy said to me directly that he wasn't interested when I corrected one of his assertions about it, because all we're doing is "abusing a hash function".
11:12 < midnight> lol
11:13 < Old_Man> I especially love it when they liken it to tulips. Netherlands is the second-largest exporter of agricultural products in the world, after the US, and guess *what* agriculutural product they're exporting?
11:13 < midnight> .. I mean well why the fuck did you bring it up in the first place gd it.
11:13 < Emcy> midnight theyre just old cypherpunks who lived to watch everything they believed in turn to worms and maggots
11:13 < midnight> Old_Man: To say nothing of the fact that tulip mania wasn't even a thing
11:13 < Emcy> and probably nocoiners too
11:13 < Old_Man> It turns out, historically speaking, just because there was a bubble once, didn't magically make tulips worth nothing.
11:13 < Emcy> dont be too harsh on them
11:13 < midnight> Emcy: My guess, yeah.
11:14 < midnight> Old_Man: there wasn't even a bubble..! Check it out: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip-fever-180964915/
11:14 < Entitlement> midnight - [ There Never Was a Real Tulip Fever |History | Smithsonian Magazine ]
11:14 < midnight> Emcy: The key to our future lies in the younger generation.
11:14 < Old_Man> midnight, I bookmarked that one when you gave it to me previously. :) But, nobody cares. They're just name-calling and hate-spewing because that's all they're capable of.
11:14 < Emcy> yeah dont remind me
11:14 < midnight> Old_Man: I did? Sorry. I don't keep track of who I've told.
11:15 < Old_Man> No, no, it's much appreciated.
11:15 < midnight> :-)
11:16 < midnight> Emcy: The Bank of Canada stduy that studied adoptipon in Canada found an *insane* 3x or 4x or something the adoption in kids younger than.. mm.. I want to say 30 but now I don't remember.
11:16 < Old_Man> Emcy, I don't know any cypherpunks who are shitty liars and haters about bitcoin. Every one I'm still in touch with from back in the 90s are HODLers.
11:16 < Emcy> why is a central bank doing studies into child adoption
11:16 < midnight> It is fundamentally an optimistic/hopeful thing to choose Bitcoin. It's a desire to better the future.
11:16 < midnight> Emcy: Because Canada is awesome! :0D
11:17 < midnight> :-D even
11:17 < Emcy> i dont get it
11:17 < Emcy> whats adopting children got to do with the central bank of canada
11:17 < midnight> Old_Man: Perry Metzger, the guy who ran the cryptocurrency ML where satoshi announced, is a harsh harsh nocoiner.
11:17 < Old_Man> Emcy, most of the devs and IT folks from back in the 90s who are haters now, are the kind who were banking their careers on microsoft certifications back then. :D
11:17 < midnight> Emcy: Bitcoin adoption?
11:17 < Old_Man> Okay, I don't know him.
11:18 < Old_Man> midnight, any idea why?
11:18 < Emcy> oh....wow im dumb
11:18 < midnight> Old_Man: I've been assuming that it's because all his hard work in NetBSD made other people millions of dollars and/or almost made him millions with Wasabi Systems, and now Wasabi is dead and people use NetBSD code in billions of other devices and nobody gives them anything?
11:19 < midnight> But who knows.
11:19 < Emcy> well i mean youd expect kids to know about crypto more than anyone else, its always been the way with technology
11:19 < Old_Man> Ohhh yeah, I have seen a few others who are bitter from having picked the wrong side of history in the BSD-license-vs.-GPL debate.
11:20 < midnight> Emcy: I find a great deal of hope in that. :)
11:20 < midnight> Old_Man: Jason Thorpe is definitely one..
11:20 < Emcy> but i dont think that the zoomers will save us overall. Unless the millenials really were just an abnormaly insipid generation
11:20 < Old_Man> One caution for the younger generation is that education curricula are being centralized... there are powerful opponents of "school choice," and that's a proxy for opposing curricula choice.
11:20 < midnight> Not sure what Manuel Boyer (Bouyer?) thinks.
11:21 < midnight> That's a parental thing. Parents provide the context and additional content to tailor it. Elsewise, it doesn't really matter.
11:22 < Old_Man> I was hoping COVID-19 would drive more home-schoolers to collaborate more on open courseware, but it hasn't taken off as I'd hoped. So centralization of education and institution of ThoughtCrime(TM) is still a threat.
11:22 < midnight> I mean it's sheer absurdity that parents think they don't have more influence over their own kids than the schools do.
11:22 < Emcy> why would they
11:23 < Old_Man> Socialist schools are working very, very hard to ensure they *do* exert more influence over kids than their parents do.
11:23 < Emcy> schools even have more raw face time with your kids than you probabyl do these days
11:23 < Old_Man> Yep, and that's one thing that COVID-19 taught me: parents often *want* it that way.
11:23 < Emcy> putting every kids possible thru college was a huge mistake
11:24 < Old_Man> "I want other people to have to pay for my child's childcare! (And if they manage to learn how to count and tie their shoes in their up-to-age-18 childcare along the way, that would be cool too)"
11:24 < Emcy> not least because now basically the post grad job market starts at a Masters, minimum
11:24 < Emcy> every tom dick & harrys got a degree in something
11:24 < Emcy> its not about education anymore, its about credentialism and indoctrination
11:25 < Old_Man> Yes, and also feeding them
11:25 < Old_Man> Teaching them postmodern ethics
11:25 < Emcy> theres a hard contradiction in terms
11:25 < Old_Man> "Fuck it; somebody else can do it all."
11:25 < Old_Man> "Preferably to include paying for it."
11:25 < Old_Man> I agree. :)
11:30 < midnight> Literally a few words from a parent to correct and balance the school curriculum is enough on its own.
11:33 < midnight> Facetime is irrelevant. All it takes is participation from parents in the evenings and weekend. And honestly if that isn't an option, then parents have kind of given up their kids for other peoples to "raise" anyway.
11:33 < Emcy> midnight i mean schools are teaching kids now that their families are genetically racist and bad
11:33 < midnight> Not here they aren't.
11:33 < Emcy> you dont just 'contextualise' that kind of shit away with a few words
11:33 < midnight> And I think that story was isolated one from New York and mostly out of context anyway wasn't it?
11:33 < Emcy> anymore than you can pull your kid out of a weird cult with a stern phonecall
11:34 < Emcy> im not thinking of any particular story
11:34 < midnight> Yeah you do, because it's easier to believe one is the hero of one's own story than not, especially for kids.
11:34 < midnight> It's *trivial* to instill pride in oneself in kids, in spite of the self-loathing that happens in adolescence.
11:35 < Old_Man> I thought I recalled some research about the typical age at which the input from peers affects behavior more than influence from parents, but can't find it at a quick google
11:35 < midnight> Peers are not authority-figure teachers though right.
11:35 < Emcy> theres a surprising amount of no shit violent revolutionary marxists in high schools even. Theres one lady who is bat shit insane teaching high school someone in texas iirc, shes the leader of the local tankie chapter and has been convicted of street brawling etc, somehow shes still teaching kids
11:35 < Old_Man> On average it was, predictably, in middle school, but some kids take longer and some kids switch over sooner, which is why middle schools seem to universally be such a fucking mess
11:36 < Old_Man> That was my takeaway from the article, of course :D
11:36 < midnight> Emcy: I'm actually okay with a street brawler taking part in teaching kids. Similarly, contextualizing it is the job of the parents.
11:36 < Emcy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAMN
11:36 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ BAMN - Wikipedia ]
11:36 < Emcy> yvette felarca
11:36 < Emcy> she even went on Tv to get interviews, shes fucking nuts
11:36 < belcher> > kids younger [...] 30
11:37 < Emcy> and shes teaching kids
11:37 < belcher> if you think age 30 is a kid you must be ancient (no offence)
11:37 < belcher> (im younger than 30)
11:37 < belcher> :p
11:37 < midnight> I think the only way to innoculate against weird broken ideas is to know more about them. Same thing about reading the bible, right: you study the bible carefully to learn more about a *massive* chunk of western history, because it's important and many things don't make any sense without that context.
11:38 < midnight> belcher: LOL I joke about it.
11:38 < Emcy> >In July 2017, a year after the riot, authorities arrested Felarca and charged her with "inciting and participating in a riot and assault likely to cause great bodily injury."[16] Felarca and her lawyer, BAMN's national chair Shanta Driver, say the white nationalists were the aggressors and BAMN members had the right to defend themselves.
11:38 < Emcy> see, ive seen this video actually, thats not what happened. The guy was facing police away from her and had his arms up like why are the poice doing nothing
11:38 < Emcy> and she came up and started punching him in the ribs
11:39 < Emcy> they always lie
11:39 < Old_Man> midnight, there's an infinity of fictions that could be applied to though... I was raised in an evangelical household and consider most of my youth wasted, learning all that shit.
11:39 < midnight> I actually think some degree of bullshittery is important, as how can one critically think without examples of shitheadery to criticize in the first place?
11:40 < midnight> Old_Man: Everyone's youth is wasted from the perspective of old men.
11:40 < Old_Man> Like, there are 1 billion Hindus in India. That's a very non-trivial chunk of the earth's population, and chances are, in any tech field, we'll run into them. Yet, I feel no loss from not having been taught their mythology.
11:40 < Old_Man> midnight: well, most of them, you're right. :) But I do look at like science olympiad competitors and 4-H competitors and Eagle Scouts and wish I could have done shit like that instead.
11:41 < midnight> Science olympiads are fun, I actually wish I could've gone to some.
11:42 < midnight> Old_Man: People who grow up in the middle of the Canadian bush basically can't participate in anything group-oriented at all-- sports, science programs, chess club, anything. Total exclusion.
11:42 < midnight> Just different experience is all. :)
11:42 < midnight> Nothing stopping us now.
11:43 < Old_Man> Well fortunately even that is changing... for one, that's applicable to almost no one, because some ridiculously large percentage of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border, like you looooove us or something. ;) But secondly, the internet is opening up more of those opportunities.
11:43 < midnight> Old_Man: besides, it was such a horrible, objective waste of your time that they've guaranteed that your line if you ever continue it will be cured of that particular horror.. forever.
11:44 < midnight> Yeah, the internet is definitely fixing a lot of things.
11:44 < midnight> But there's a lot of people in northern ontario even, the prairies, NWT, Nunavut. I mean heck, the Inuit are still subsistence hunting beluga.
11:45 < Old_Man> I hosted a ham radio fox hunt a few weekends ago, and sure loved to see those parents that brought kids with them.
11:45 < Old_Man> They were learning some cool shit, and having fun with it too.
11:45 < midnight> !!
11:45 <@gribble> Error: "!" is not a valid command.
11:45 < midnight> That's *awesome*.
11:45 < midnight> opinion("Old_Man")++;
11:46 < Old_Man> It was easy to do socially-distanced too: my vehicle was the fox, and I was masked up, and they were masked up too, so we could shout at each other from > 6 feet away, and they would leave the fox location before the next finders showed up... pretty safe overall.
11:46 < midnight> That is easily the coolest thing I've heard all week.
11:46 < Old_Man> But while they were at my vehicle, I could take some pics, publish their finish position in the club newsletter and website, and I dropped off prizes at their houses afterward so there was no congregation anywhere.
11:47 < Old_Man> Man, wish I could have done some shit like that when I was a kid instead of all the churchy crap.
11:47 < Old_Man> (BTW, I won't feel too flattered... it's only Monday) :D
11:50 < Emcy> midnight wrt guided learning.....kids get whole modules on what the nazis did, but nothing on the horrors resultant of marxism. Absolutely nothing.
11:51 < Emcy> until they get to college......by which time they learn all about how its great actually and the onyl reason it doesnt work out is because of 'external factors' [you know like human nature...]
11:52 < Emcy> i never got taught literally a single solitary thing about marxism or bolshevism in my entire education
11:52 < Veggen> Old_Man: I was (technically still am) in the boy scouts - but here have sort of gotten rid of that churchy crap :) (that is, there are those that will claim you're not doing it correctly, but you get away with not caring)
11:52 < midnight> Emcy: Oh I dunno..  they were pretty harsh on Stalinist policies and his industrialization pain in high school history here..?
11:52 < Emcy> you had it better than i did then
11:52 < Old_Man> I got some, so I might be older than you (probably), but yeah, certainly nothing about economic failures. The Soviets suffered from hunger due to 70 years of bad weather! :D
11:53 < midnight> Emcy: Their current blame is that capitalist countries have destroyed the chances of it working rather than cooperating and participating in alternative government structures.
11:53 < Veggen> that said: I respect all religious people as long as they respect that I don't believe in their religion.
11:53 < Emcy> yeah its always someone elses fault that 100 million people died
11:53 < belcher> Emcy did you do GCSE history?
11:53 < Old_Man> Veggen, are the Mormons still dominating the top levels of the hierarchy of boy scouts? I have a problem with that, but in my younger years, I think it wasn't the case so much.
11:53 < Emcy> belcher no
11:54 < belcher> not disagreeing necessarily, its just we studied the russian revolution at one point at school
11:54 < Emcy> ok, i probably missed that then
11:54 < belcher> i guess theres some discretion on what is actually studied depending on the school, because the same textbook also had the french revolution but we never studied it
11:55 < Veggen> Old_Man: I am not in US :)
11:55 < Emcy> i basically didnt go to school between year 8 and 10....i had a lot of difficulties
11:55 < Old_Man> Man I think we got 0 on the actual revolution. A little on Lenin, a little more on Stalin, I think that was about it.
11:55 < Veggen> mormons were never big enough here to dominate anything :)
11:55 < Old_Man> Veggen, so I assume your scouts are completely separate from BSA, and not influenced at all by mormons?
11:55 < Veggen> Old_Man: yup.
11:55 < Old_Man> K, cool.
11:55 < Emcy> i managed to scrape 2 D GCSEs in something i cant remember [not history]
11:56 < Emcy> then i went to college [not uni, 16-18 college] and was top of my class in electronics lol
11:56 < Old_Man> Well I work more with scouts now as a ham, and haven't noticed any actual damage from the Mormon leadership (yet), but I'm still wary. And still a bit jealous that I didn't get that opportunity and had to do like bible quizzing and shit instead.
11:56 < belcher> maybe maths and science GCSEs, if you were good at electronics?
11:56 < Veggen> my group has also toned down that religion thing, too - though the concept of doing morally right things etc are still there, of course (some religious people think you can
11:56 < Old_Man> (Which I thought was fun enough at the time.)
11:56 < Veggen> ..'t have moral without religion)
11:57 < Old_Man> Yeah, I'm big on highlighting epistemology and secular ethics.
11:57 < Emcy> yeah i think it was maths and science, i basically only had 6 months to do it so i couldnt afford to get 10 GCSEs and such
11:57 < midnight> They stressed, here, that Stalinist exploitation and direct murder ended up killing overall more people than Hitler did..
11:57 < Emcy> i wound up in some 'special education unit' for kids whom school chewed up and spat out
11:58 < Veggen> OM: I haven't practised ham radio for a while, either. Maybe I can start doing it more, now that we have a cabin that's ours....technically my GFs, soon, so I need to consider WAS very carefully :)
11:58 < Emcy> not for retards or gifted kids....just ones who couldnt hack schooling for whatever reason
11:58 < Veggen> eh, WAF.
11:59 < Old_Man> I see it as a parallel hobby to RVing and recreational shooting: yes, fun in its own right; also good practice "just in case" you need to provide for your own housing/physical/communications security.
12:00 < Old_Man> And bitcoin too for that matter, "just in case" we need to provide our own financial security (which obviously we now do)
12:01 < Old_Man> They're all kind of the same in that regard, and the people you meet in any one of those hobbies are likely to share others on that list with you too. So it's a nice way to build networks.
12:02 < midnight> Old_Man: three people wandering by here have now laughed at your Monday joke. :)
12:02 < midnight> .. and counting..
12:03 < Old_Man> :D
12:04 < midnight> I was shocked to see all the people I "knew" from the old days were also popping up into Bitcoin.
12:05 < midnight> Esp. the hackers. Man they love Bitcoin to death.
12:05 < Veggen> most of my friends thinks it's just a waste of a whole lot of electricity.
12:07 < Veggen> ...in my opinion, the problem isn't that bitcoin needs too much energy, it's that there's far too much cheap (usually trapped) energy.
12:07 < Veggen> over time, it will even out.
12:08 < queip> "I have seen a few others who are bitter from having picked the wrong side of history in the BSD-license-vs.-GPL debate."
12:08 < queip> Old_Man: which side is wrong?
12:09 < Old_Man> queip, in the buildup to the American Civil War, slave owners made the argument that, "eliminating slavery is against freedom, because you're taking away MY freedom to tell others what to do!"
12:09 < Old_Man> queip, but that was rejected because, while technically correct, most of the time when people to talk about "freedom," virtually everyone talks about the *subset* of all freedoms that *excludes*, "taking away the freedoms of others."
12:10 < midnight> damn I make good coffee
12:10 < Old_Man> So most of us talk about the *reciprocal subset* of freedom, rather than the "absolute" concept of liberty.
12:11 < Old_Man> So the GPL enforces the *reciprocal* concept of freedom, in which *everyone* has the same freedoms, whereas the BSD license gives people the right to take away others' freedoms when you add your code to previously-free code.
12:11 < Old_Man> So it's like the GPL is anti-slavery, and the BSD is like the pro-slavery side.
12:11 < midnight> queip: Obviously the one that made the licence-users bitter and ragey in their old age.
12:12 < midnight> I disagree with the conceptualization of the pro-slavery part. I have a fondness for the BSD licence in that the original work can't be made un-free.
12:13 < queip> Old_Man: that summary doesn't make much sense, GPL removes my freedom to have certain uses of code
12:13 < queip> is that making me "slave of old hippie stalman"?
12:13 < queip> don't think so
12:13 < queip> but neiter does BSD, both are valid choices
12:15 < Old_Man> queip, no it doesn't. It explicitly allows you to use it any way you want.
12:15 < midnight> the GPL is a class of freedom which bars downstream freedom removal. I'm okay with that too. If I slave away on a codebase, esp. after having watched the BSD people grow angry watching their code make other peoples millions and them poor and penniless, damn straight I'll pick GPL.
12:16 < queip> Old_Man: some people would be unable to use GPL licenced libraries and program in their work, for example in some of scientific grants
12:16 < midnight> That's a failing of that process, not of the GPL.
12:16 < midnight> The GPL is not incompatible with government works.
12:16 < queip> midnight: it is with some
12:17 < Old_Man> The GPL relies on copyright. In the US, government works are supposed to be public domain. But usually, such works are created by contractors, so not subject to public domain.
12:17 < queip> with the ones where you are prohibited from even selling (and obviously from giving away) things created on grant
12:17 < Old_Man> But midnight is correct; if people make contractual obligations to NOT use the GPL, that's their own fault and to their own detriment.
12:18 < queip> well not really detriment, then you just choose BSD-like option instead
12:19 < Old_Man> Usually they just use closed source and charge the government way more than was necessary for the product instea.
12:19 < Old_Man> instead.
12:19 < Old_Man> Our government procurement processes are really stupid that way; in the US, people who can't get jobs in the private sector or for community efforts end up in government jobs. Incompetence abounds.
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12:40 < midnight> Emcy: I sent you a couple PMs..?
12:44 < Emcy> i dont see any pms here
12:46 < Emcy> its OTR again...
12:52 < gmaxwell> I think it's really weird that OTR worked find for years until freenode got acquired.
12:52 < gmaxwell> er fine*
12:53 < Emcy> did it
12:54 < Emcy> idk if its just me. if theres some reason PMs are silent
12:54 < gmaxwell> it's not just you.
12:55 < Emcy> big hmmm
12:55 < Emcy> is there any reason to believe otr is not working like we think it should
12:57 < gmaxwell> well if someone jams it so you stop using it ... then it doesn't protect you. :)
12:58 < Emcy> oh well.....that kind of attack wont work on me
12:58 < gmaxwell> I dunno if freenode (or their upstream ISPs) is tampering with it, but -- if they were, what we're seeing now is what we'd see... it mysteriously failing in the hopes you stop using it.  So don't stop using it.
13:00 < Emcy> i assuredly will not
13:01 < belcher> i used OTR over freenode just the other day..?
13:01 < belcher> it worked fine
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13:10 < gmaxwell> it works most of the time, but mysteriously fails.
13:10 < gmaxwell> and when it mysterious fails it tends to silently eat messages between people.
13:12 < midnight> They did change the maximum line length in freenode at some point in the recent past.
13:12 < midnight> They reduced it slightly I think.
13:12 < midnight> That spb guy (head dev, or maybe former head dev) would know.
13:12 < midnight> But I don't want to ask him because he's hostile to bitcoin.
13:15 < gmaxwell> why would they reduce the maximum line length?
13:15 < midnight> I have NO IDEA.
13:15 < midnight> It BROKE EVERYTHING.
13:15 < Emcy> enough to intefere with OTR handshake?
13:16 < midnight> Or was it the maximum flood parameters?
13:16 < midnight> sigh
13:16 < midnight> Either way, it BROKE EVERYTHING.
13:16 < midnight> lol
13:17 < gmaxwell> OTR depends on the ability to periodically send new 1024 bit dsa keys ... they're pretty big.
13:17 < Emcy> hmm
13:20 < midnight> Like you might notice that splitlong.pl is putting little bits on the next line on and everyone who has it autoloaded and doesn't turn it off, they get a split line, then another one a few bytes past that.
13:20 < midnight> That never used to be an issue.
13:24 < gmaxwell> so freenode is itself line splitting?
13:24 < midnight> That part I haven't figured out yet.
13:25 < midnight> My original understanding was that long lines get silently eaten
13:25 < midnight> And before tracking it down more precisely I lost interest because irssi just started working one day and some bright flashing lights drew me away
13:26 < midnight> I did also have to correct my bouncer manually with a recompilet o ensure it didn't flood freenode and get me booted out.
13:27 < midnight> I think Luke is still stubbornly sticking with other parameters which is why he disconnects due to flooding occasionally.
13:30 < Emcy> surely they dont really believe that blockstream or whatever is plotting the downfall of 'p2p electronic cash for the world'
13:30 < Emcy> and moreover that theyre doing it on flippin freenode
13:30 < midnight> I used to think that Trump's schtick was an act but after listening to that phone call, I've discovered that he really is like that even in private..
13:30 < Emcy> they must know that we know they own the place too
13:30 < midnight> So, now I begin to think that yes, there really are people who believe that as though it were actually truel
13:31 < midnight> Emcy: We had a "mole" of sorts (really a liaison guy) between us and the PIA people, and by his assertions and repeated assurances, there was basically zero overlap whatsoever even between falkvinge and the PIA management of freenode.
13:32 < midnight> And that Roger was explicitly refused any even influence etc.
13:32 < Emcy> nice if true
13:32 < Emcy> but
13:33 < Emcy> i also talked to someone who used to work at freenode
13:33 < Emcy> i mean PIA
13:33 < midnight> He originally was one of us and was *hired on* with PIA after the fact, so unless he turned, it would surprise me if he were lying.
13:33 < Emcy> she said the place is a zoo pretty much, and 'andrew' [i think] is legitimately insane
13:33 < midnight> He also never turned around and warned us after the fact too, which is also helpful evidence.
13:34 < midnight> (Like I think he doesn't work there anymore.)
13:35 < midnight> But we don't see him much anymore.
13:37 < Emcy> still its no reason to let your guard down you know
13:37 < Emcy> we know roger doesnt handle well being told no
13:40 < Old_Man> You can settle him down by just chanting "bcash bcash bcash" in his face.
13:46 < pipilain1n> oh you mean segwitcorecoin
13:47 < queip> gmaxwell: that idiot cryptographer posting on mailing list, what was his face, seems to be lying about LN being IOU. or that is how I read it. perhaps someone should reply
13:47 < queip> the one from bitcoin being a failure
13:48 < pipilain1n> emin gun sirer?
13:49 < gmaxwell> he's referring to the 'Ray Dillenger' who is not a cryptographer.
13:50 < midnight> Ray Dillinger aka cryddit (who pretended his English was terrible very early on) aka "Bear" from his email.
13:50 < queip> https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2020-December/036510.html
13:50 < Entitlement> queip - [ [Cryptography] Bitcoin is a disaster. ]
13:50 < midnight> He appears to have some assembly/reversing knowledge which I guess is a bit more than the average "bear".
13:50 < gmaxwell> .price bsv btc
13:50 < deb0rah> bittrex 0.00533692 [+5.90%] | hitbtc 0.00532500 [+5.91%] | southxchange 0.00530640 [+4.61%] |
13:50 < midnight> .price bch btc
13:50 < deb0rah> binance 0.01279600 [+5.33%] | bittrex 0.01280001 [+5.44%] | southxchange 0.01263406 [+3.95%] | hitbtc 0.01278600 [+5.25%] | bleutrade 0.01251000 [+2.36%] | graviex 0.01364752 [+10.96%] | poloniex 0.01277950 [+5.43%] | kraken 0.01281000 [+5.35%] |
13:50 < midnight> nooooo
13:51 < Emcy> dillinger just doesnt understand LN at all, it read like he hasnt actually looked at it or he bought the 'tabs' propaganda
13:51 < midnight> (cryddit was his handle on bitcointalk, supposedly)
13:51 < Emcy> the mail also sounded like he might have been on the christmas sauce when he wrote it
13:52 < midnight> I've been referencing this post from gmax about Ray a lot recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/e9v48b/how_can_sirius_claim_to_be_bitcoins_2nd_developer/falysvv/
13:52 < midnight> It's a good debunking of his lameness.
13:52 < midnight> Emcy: I mean it does start out "might be my depressive side.."
13:52 < pipilain1n> well he is not entirely incorrect
13:53 < pipilain1n> but he is wrong about ASICS
13:53 < gmaxwell> someone using the email address bear@sonic.net exchanged a couple messages with satoshi prior to bitcoin's launch after satoshi posted.  Then he was not heard from again until 2013 when he showed up blathering about altcoins and then shortly after bitcoin being doomed.
13:53 < queip> LN is not "debt brokering"
13:53 < gmaxwell> I dont even know why people just assume he's the same person.
13:53 < gmaxwell> or why anyone should think what he thinks matters.
13:54 < Emcy> because he serves the 'real bitcoin OGs' narrative
13:54 < pipilain1n> LN is trust minimized or whatever they call it these days, I like that term, but ultimately it doesn't matter, because it works (not super good), but it doesn't mess with the blockchain
13:54 < gmaxwell> he was bragging in 2013 that he sold all his bitcoin because of some innane confused fud he was spreading that he since deleted.
13:54 < Emcy> thats why his most recent [purported] mail was publicised
13:54 < queip> I know that, but should be replied to some place where it is seen by other, imo. Especially ML, is not a typical trollbox for zoomers and discorders
13:54 < pipilain1n> seems like strawmen arguments
13:55 < midnight> Because he says he was an early .. inputter? designer? iunno.. whatever.. in Bitcoin, and thus they can leverage his stupid for their agendas. It doesn't make any difference, but Gavin's opinion shouldn't have mattered either and when his salary ran out from BCF he came back and they leveraged that to create whole forks.
13:56 < pipilain1n> having said that I'm going to use LN to buy some gift cards
13:57 < pipilain1n> got my oldest kid some gloves today
13:57 < midnight> So, I'm guessing that they're going to have him do something special. Maybe it'll be extra special and he'll assert Craig is Satoshi or something because he sold all his bitcoins super early and needs the money and is hungry and starving now
13:58 < Emcy> midnight na he posted something else after that and even rbtc was like.....eh not sure i agree...
13:59 < midnight> The BSV nutbars aren't the rbtc nutbars though, but that's a nice change they didn't just immediately pile on behind him.
14:01 < midnight> Emcy: I will make use of the "real OG" narrative to smash people who came later who use it as an authoritative signal, but I also regularly state that the assertion is meaningless.
14:02 < Old_Man> Is there like a diagram or something that we can use, like a family tree with dates of forks and shit, to keep all the various nutbars straight?
14:02 < pipilain1n> lol
14:02 < midnight> Old_Man: like a people graph, or a codebase graph?
14:02 < Old_Man> Yes. :D
14:02 < pipilain1n> I'm OG since I bought bitcoin 2012?
14:02 < midnight> The codebase graph was attempted, but it was thousands and thousands of lines long, and hasn't ever been updated.
14:02 < Emcy> yeah gmax has smashed it before also, but they still intimate that theyre the 'real bitcoiners' and the maxis all came after 2017 etc
14:03 < pipilain1n> fuck OGs
14:03 < midnight> pipilain1n: yeah pretty much what it means to me, but they assert that choosing to get involved that early is a badge of intelligence/pride/expertise/authority/closeness to god-i-mean-satoshi.
14:03 < Emcy> "i signed up for cheap transactions above all else in 2012, not this"
14:03 < Emcy> etc
14:03 < Emcy> if they think they could have 'signe dup for' bitcoin at all then they never understood it
14:04 < pipilain1n> midnight: it doesn't mean shit, I know plenty people who are clueless about what bitcoin is who got in the same time as me
14:04 < midnight> "I was here in 2010 and everyone's been telling everyone since long before you got here that cheap was a temporary condition, fuckhead."
14:04 < Emcy> yeah
14:04 < Emcy> i didnt know it wouldnt be cheap forever in the beginning too, but i came to understand why thats the case
14:04 < Emcy> and why its nevessary
14:04 < midnight> pipilain1n: Course it means squat. But to thos epeople who assert it means something, it's a convenient way to use their hammer against them.
14:05 < midnight> They have to split off and say use the maverick defence instead.
14:05 < pipilain1n> look I get the big block narrative, but why do they have to be so utterly stupid and conspiritarded?
14:05 < midnight> pipilain1n: That's the backdoor into a large number of peoples' heads.
14:06 < pipilain1n> yes
14:06 < queip> pipilain1n: many such conspiracies are true
14:06 < queip> just not in that way in case of btc
14:06 < midnight> I suspect most of them don't even know that that's the backdoor, explicitly, they just know the behaviour "works"
14:06 < Emcy> midnight i mean ive been here since iirc 2011 too, but i dont really say it much
14:06 < Emcy> if anyone asks, i just tell people im literally nobody because i am lol
14:06 < midnight> Most conspiracies are false, that's why they're effective: they can be crafted.
14:07 < pipilain1n> queip: yeah, ofc conspiracies are real sometimes
14:07 < midnight> Emcy: I will only say it as anti-leverage, and I say it deliberately, and every time I do I smh and make annoyed clucking noises.
14:07 < queip> pipilain1n: in this cases when they are it is extra important to do something about it, that is what makes people prone to FUD in that direction
14:08 < pipilain1n> queip: I mean, does it even matter? WHO has the time to care
14:08 < pipilain1n> I applade some of you for taking the time and debunking all the bullshit
14:08 < midnight> Vigourous defence from attack keeps group cohesion together. Sigh.
14:08 < pipilain1n> but aren't you busy drinking wine and having dinner with friends?
14:08 < midnight> Everyone likes to have the umbrella to work under.
14:09 < queip> pipilain1n: not sure what you are asking about in this case, but for example if this is about the conspiracy to destroy free speech, then I have some time to care
14:09 < pipilain1n> rbtc is correct in some sense, we are the fat cats now
14:09 < queip> pipilain1n: just explaining the mechanism
14:09 < midnight> covid means I have dinner with nobody. I sit there with a lone beeswax candle on my table and slowly crunch my stale bread and reheated frozen stew I made three months ago.
14:09 < pipilain1n> oh
14:10 < midnight> and I plot angrily
14:10 < pipilain1n> well I live in sweden so we're fucked anyway
14:10 < midnight> And I stab daggers into the table occasionally when I'm done cutting up my bread hunks.
14:10 < pipilain1n> all my guests today have had covid
14:10 < queip> pipilain1n: really? wow
14:10 < pipilain1n> although their immunity is probably running out
14:10 < midnight> And I leave the room dark and wear a hoodie.
14:11 < pipilain1n> queip: yes, every single one, even the 1 year old
14:11 < pipilain1n> my family have made it through without any wuhan cough
14:12 < midnight> immunity lasts a long time. Good evidence of compartmentalized stores of immunity-related material in bone marrow.
14:12 < pipilain1n> the british mutant covid has landed in my country now
14:12 < midnight> And t-cell capabilities are shown to last for a really long time in spite of the last of antibodies in blood serum
14:12 < pipilain1n> midnight: that's good
14:13 < midnight> *lack of antibodies
14:13 < pipilain1n> I'm going to a funeral this friday
14:13 < midnight> pipilain1n: Do some people have festive gatherings for funerals in your neck of the woods?
14:15 < pipilain1n> midnight: festive, no, you go listen to a priest who doesn't talk about god, then you have coffee and go home
14:15 < midnight> ouch
14:15 < Old_Man> Wow, there's a metric I haven't looked at in a few months: the US is no longer 51st in the world for case fatality rate. We're down to 87th.
14:15 < midnight> Man I want people to facepaint with my ashes and barcrawl until they puke
14:16 < pipilain1n> midnight: hell yeah
14:16 < Old_Man> And you want them to wait 'til after you're dead for that? What a waste.
14:16 < Old_Man> I mean, I suppose that's okay if you want them to facepaint with *your* "your" ashes. :D That would indeed work better after you're deceased, I suppose.
14:17 < midnight> LOL
14:17 < midnight> how the hell will they get my ashes if I'm still alive, I need these arms
14:18 < Emcy> pipilain1n if wer ethe 'fat cats' now its only because we tried to warnt hem, for years, that they were onto a loser and they didnt listen
14:18 < pipilain1n> guess you could take out a piece of your butt and roast it to ashes
14:18 < Old_Man> You wouldn't need your legs for a pub *crawl* though, now would you. <Taps temple wisely>
14:18 < pipilain1n> Emcy: right
14:18 < midnight> Genius. I'm on it bro.
14:19 < midnight> Plus they could make a rocking long-pig stew.
14:19 < pipilain1n> I mean, most bitcoiners might not be rich-rich, but if they stuck around and managed to hodl through, they are somewhat well off compared to the bcashers
14:19 < Emcy> midnight well trudeau got away with it lol
14:19 < midnight> wuah wuah wuahhhhh
14:19 < midnight> badum TISH
14:21 < midnight> Old_Man: what's this about cfr? URI?
14:22 < Old_Man> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_by_country_and_territory
14:22 < Entitlement> Old_Man - [ COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory - Wikipedia ]
14:22 < Old_Man> Scroll down to "total death rates and cases by country," sort by CFR.
14:24 < Old_Man> Also, as for the severe understatement of "they are somewhat well off compared to the bcashers," I happen to have metrics on that in my spreadsheet too: since the fork date, bitcoin is up 906.88% today, and bcash is -81.41% today.
14:25 < pipilain1n> Old_Man: just trying to be humble
14:25 < Old_Man> Nope, sorry, read the wrong column: bcash is -87.60% today.
14:25 < Old_Man> :)
14:25 < pipilain1n> :)
14:27 < midnight> It's just amazing to watch the gyrations of the bcashers denying that the value differential has meaning.
14:28 < nkuttler> well. i myself say the the price is the least interesting thing about bitcoin..
14:28 < Old_Man> midnight, I was rather surprised to see, right here in this very channel, this brazenly-false assertion just a few hours ago: "GPL removes my freedom to have certain uses of code
14:28 < pipilain1n> yes
14:29 < pipilain1n> nkuttler: but price is a good common ground
14:29 < Old_Man> The GPL was published in *1989*
14:30 < Old_Man> 32 years ago? Right? So I'm quite sure that 32 years from now, we will probably still be seeing bcashers maintain that segwit did not result in a blocksize increase and so the core developers were unwilling to compromise for scalability.
14:30 < Old_Man> They will literally never stop, just as most of those born into Christianity/Islam/Hiduism die in the same faith, 80-90 years later.
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14:31 < midnight> It's not *interesting* so much, but it's quite horrid to comparatively lose *so much* of your buying power because you backed the shitheads.
14:31 < midnight> Old_Man: Stats are good for the ongoing death of major religions.
14:32 < Old_Man> From your lips to god's ear--waaaait
14:32  * Old_Man almost undermines our progress there :D
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14:33 < Old_Man> More seriously, though, that's something that I'm heartened by as well, though it comes at the cost of the faith dying through *people* dying.
14:35 < midnight> hah
14:35 < midnight> er.
14:35 < midnight> hah for the waaaait, not for the people dying, which is bad
14:37 < Old_Man> Well, on the bright side, we could always use *their* ashes for your pub-crawl party.
14:37 < Old_Man> And that's the most tasteless thing I'll say for the next five minutes, at least, as I'm out for a bit... see ya
14:39 < midnight> \o
14:39  * midnight 's mouth goes dry eating this powdered confection
14:40 < Emcy> hope ur not still talking about ashes
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15:01 < Emcy> do you think its preferable to refer to 'fungibility' where you might have talked about 'privacy' before?
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15:02 < grubles> confidentiality?
15:04 < Emcy> yeah i think blockstream prefers 'confindential' over private usually
15:05 < Emcy> for reasons i dont like or really even understand, 'private' seems to be somewhat furtive in the minds of many, especially with money
15:06 < Emcy> even though if you asked the same people how much they make, theyd probably bristle. but i digress
15:06 < Emcy> however fungibility in money is easier to explain, and seems to be harder to oppose
15:06 < midnight> People downplay that simply because it's a touchy subject with regulators and the public who think that the ideals we *actually* want in money, are too dangerous to allow us.
15:07 < Emcy> yes, thats what im saying
15:07 < Emcy> so rather than say 'privacy [which brings fungibility too]'
15:07 < Emcy> why not 'fungibility [which brings privacy too'
15:08 < Emcy> or is there a reason i shouldnt do that
15:10 < Emcy> i mean personally im more convinced by the fungibility arguments for making onchain txs harder to graph, than the privacy, even though theyre nearly the same thing in fact
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15:10 < Emcy> the vast majority of people really dont have anything to particularly hide
15:11 < midnight> Nobody uses the word fungibility in an actual sentence.
15:11 < Emcy> but that doesnt stop entities dicking around with peoples fungibility, even though theyve done nothing to warrant it
15:12 < Emcy> midnight yeah i mean you might have to define the word for people initally, but at least then you know youre not using terms which might already have a difficult connotation with them
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15:13 < midnight> I think the concept is an unfamiliar one to people, in spite of the fact they require it daily.
15:13 < Emcy> but is it harder to explain than why privacy isnt a bad thing, actually, even though terrorists and paedophiles do exist?
15:16 < Emcy> i mean look, being fro the uk ive seen people go round and round on the issue of privacy for a long time. And people really do seem to be 50/50 on it, especially if you throw in aforementioned discourse killer words
15:19 < Emcy> but if you tell them that thier money might not be good for cetain people in certain places, for reasons they cant really understand, i bet youd manage to do better than 50/50 when persuading people to your argument
15:23 < midnight> "Great, I'll show up tonight to take pictures of you while you're on the toilet, and also you having relations with your girlfriend. See you then."
15:23 < midnight> "You're not.. doing anything *wrong* are you?"
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15:38 < Emcy> if that worked the issue would have been put to bed long ago
15:50 < grubles> fungibility isn't quite related to privacy though right
15:50 < grubles> it's just that one enables the other
15:51 < midnight> hrmm..
15:51 < grubles> it's more like non-uniqueness
15:52 < belcher> how about "fungibility is important for moneyness, and without that number wont go up"
15:56 < Emcy> might be the ticket
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15:58 < belcher> another option is "hahaha coinswap go brrrr"
15:58 < belcher> "non-address-reuse go brrrr"
16:00 < Emcy> >Due to the public nature of the Bitcoin blockchain, third parties can analyse Bitcoin’s transaction history to determine potential links between transactions. This harms fungibility, a critical property of money and erodes users’ privacy.
16:00 < Emcy> this is how blockstream frames it
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16:07 < belcher> wow look at this spam
16:07 < belcher> Hello there! I am a bot raising awareness my Plausable Corona Cure. Hello there. Me, and two other experts have developed an extremely advanced Artificial Intelligence program. Our AI is designed to analyze the COVID-19, and generate a molecule that has the ability to destroy it, with limited side effects in the simulation. Our AI is proving to be extremely successful. Our official website: [link removed]
16:07 < belcher> i can only see it because im a mod on r/bitcoin, usually the removed spam is about free giveaways or begging
16:07 < belcher> this one seems to be taking advantage of people with covid or scared of covid?
16:08 < Emcy> but my computer is already designing curative molecules..
16:10 < Emcy> wonder who the other two experts are....larry and moe
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16:20 < midnight> Shemp?
16:22 < belcher> Emcy "This was developed by Mohit Varikuti, Pranav Palagummi, and Tanish Zutshi" so probably some random names
16:23 < belcher> or perhaps a name of actually well-known people who appear if you search the web
16:23 < midnight> Is that one of the guys who says he invented email?
16:24 < Emcy> must suck balls to be actually notable for something then have your name subsequently attached to scams
16:27 < queip> without fungibility, Bitcoin would be inferior to gold
16:28 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346106536855302144 christ
16:28 < Emcy> well queip looks like they listened to you
16:29 < Emcy> changes nothing for me tho
16:29 < Emcy> still wont close the fucking schools though will they
16:30 < Emcy> kids just need a do over for this academic year
16:30 < queip> is there an non-JS mirror of that site?
16:30 < Emcy> yeah but i forgot what it is now
16:30 < Emcy> >PM is addressing nation at 8 tonight. Parliament to be recalled Wednesday. Tough national lockdown to be announced
16:30 < queip> fuck Jack Dorsey
16:30 < Emcy> thats what it says
16:31 < queip> Emcy: in UK right?
16:31 < Emcy> yes
16:32 < qubenix> queip: nitter.net < non js twitter
16:32 < queip> Emcy: maybe it will solve the problem. if they really go through with it, not do it but but but I have to walk my dog, to the cinema, or for just 2 weeks
16:32 < Emcy> they cant physically stop everyone from going outside at any point
16:33 < Emcy> this will be 'dont let us catch you on the street' until everyone relevant is vaccinated
16:33 < Emcy> they never wanted to tell us, but thats the way it was always going to be
16:33 < Emcy> if they told us 12 months ago that thats the way it will be for 18 months until theres a vaccine, everyone would have gone ape shit
16:34 < queip> never it will be the case that every adult is facced, probably not even 80%
16:34 < queip> Emcy: for how long? when it starts? better buy surplus just in case
16:35 < Emcy> grocery delivery slots dried up over christmas again too.....even accounting for christmas, and the many extra drivers they took on
16:36 < Emcy> ive been stocking up all year, but maybe ill get some more
16:36 < Emcy> rally i have hundreds and hundreds of tins now
16:36 < Emcy> and a lot of other non perishable stuff
16:36 < Emcy> i have like 40kg of flour and stuff for the breadmaker
16:38 < Emcy> >0n 29 December a staggering 80,664 people tested positive for COVID-19 (that is the date of test, not date of result).  As you can see, the rate of positive tests doubled in three days.
16:38 < Emcy> fuuuuck
16:40 < queip> huh? a bit too fast to be result on Christmas (24/25th) meetings, no?
16:40 < Emcy> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eq6ZRDuXUAEnGJH?format=jpg&name=orig
16:40 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ jpeg (1242 x 1038) ]
16:44 < Emcy> https://nitter.net/steve_hawkes/status/1346007264268873728
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16:47 < queip> fixing this virus to me seems like trying to make sure your closed source phone os on your closed source firmware and hardware, is not secretly video taping you. Trying to fix it will be x100 more work and we have no idea if it works or will it leave some open avenue of attack after all.  Just cover up the camera.
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17:00 < Emcy> https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/2048/cpsprodpb/455A/production/_116345771_uk_daily_cases_with_ra_4jan-nc.png
17:00 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ png (2666 x 1875) ]
17:01 < Emcy> looks like the bitcoin chart lol
17:03 < Emcy> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home
17:03 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ National lockdown: Stay at Home - GOV.UK ]
17:03 < Emcy> if anyones interested on what countries with an actual lockdown are like now
17:04 < Emcy> 22 pages of what you can and cant do
17:07 < queip> you can: shop for basic necessities, for you or a vulnerable person
17:07 < queip> ... go to work, or provide voluntary or charitable services,
17:08 < queip> that is not a lockdown Emcy. We had that here for a month or so. It doesn't help much. Everyone who wants outside will have an excuse
17:09 < Emcy> most of it is unenforcible anyway
17:09 < Emcy> i dont envy the police having this dumped in their lap
17:09 < queip> king-ball.jpg
17:09 < queip> Can: STAY AT HOME.  Can't: GO OUT OF HOME
17:10 < queip> lmao bottom text
17:10 < queip> but don't listen to me, fuck with it for entire 2021 too I guess \o/
17:11 < Emcy> do you know what unenforcible means
17:11 < queip> (in reality: medical serivces, police, army, emergency services, and avoiding direct danger to life or long term injury, and escaping/pursuing crime)
17:11 < queip> Emcy: CCTV operator sees anyone on street (not in emergency services/police car) - he calls cops. super easy
17:12 < queip> /usr/bin/motion could do it xD
17:12 < Emcy> well then i dont envy cctv ops either
17:12 < queip> when law is so clearly in strict in place, people will stay at house, unless they want to go to the big house
17:12 < Emcy> though maybe you dont know that cctv doesnt usualy have anyone actually watching it except in the city centres
17:13 < Emcy> and only in bigger city centres
17:13 < queip> any motion (human-sized) will be reported
17:13 < queip> now that might sound opressive or shit, but the point it is really for concrete time frame as in 30 days, and people are compensated.
17:13 < Emcy> its still not tractable
17:14 < queip> hm? you walk outside, police arrives and snatches you up
17:14 < Emcy> it all depends on how willing people are to play along
17:14 < Emcy> i wonder if theyre factoring in diminishing willingness
17:15 < queip> Emcy: well exactly, 30 days is reasonable.  1 or more likely 2 and more and more (xd) years of dicking about aren't
17:15 < queip> Emcy: which one would you rather haver
17:16 < Emcy> we cannot simply burn the virus out in 30 days that way. It only takes a fraction of people determined to be vectors for it to survive.
17:16 < Emcy> that will not work in the west. ever
17:16 < queip> why same approach worked in china?
17:17 < Emcy> we dont really know what china did
17:17 < Emcy> maybe they threw tens of thousands of people in a lye pit
17:17 < Emcy> maybe they never actually stopped it anywhere near as much as they imply
17:17 < Emcy> dont trust china
17:17 < queip> well they also spreyed something on streets. ok blast streets with H2O2 and ethanol
17:18 < Emcy> yeah that shit was fucking theatre if i ever saw it
17:18 < queip> Emcy: well, we can quaranteene that people instead doing a lye pit.  and send emergency services to people that can't care for themsleves, and give people few days to prepare. this are the tweaks for civilized people
17:23 < phantomcircuit> a 7776 long word list requires 10 entries to get 128 bits right?
17:23 < queip> btw: keep dicking with it until it becomes spreadable by commonly occurring animals, especially like birds or ticks+rats, then it will be total game over for the west, only option to napalm it all and start over
17:24 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/R66KxEbkzz0?t=2891 the only solution to this infection
17:26 < queip> phantomcircuit: because (LOG(7776)/LOG(2))*10 = 129.25 ?  I guess so, but I'm not a mathematician
17:28 < belcher> phantomcircuit log(7776**10,2) = 129.24812503605781... so looks like it to me
17:29 < phantomcircuit> jeez i bet there's a bunch of people out there using xkcdpass who have no idea the default sucks
17:29 < phantomcircuit> default is 6 words 77 bits
17:29 < queip> battery horse correct steple lol
17:30 < queip> no wait, correct horse. :)
17:31 < phantomcircuit> correct horse battery staple
17:31 < phantomcircuit> 4 words is only 51 bits
17:32 < queip> actually much less for typical human unless you flip it in a dictionary
17:33 < belcher>  /ns identify RTMGu9RnwXI13yjo6wGHmzicXhdSelqqvsSTrlZoACA
17:33 < belcher> oh f
17:33 < queip> seize him!
17:34 < belcher> (thats not actually my password, fooled you!)
17:34 < queip> ^- this is totally not me speaking
17:34 < belcher> (usually i get a bunch of messages saying "nick has entered an incorrect password", nothing this time maybe freenode doesnt show them... or people here are very ethical)
17:34 < Emcy> >like water i ebb and flow. Defeated is simply the addition of time to a sentence i never deserved.....but you imposed.
17:34 < queip> we should deop belcher until he physically meets other ops :PP
17:34 < belcher> i dont think im an op here
17:34 < belcher> yeah im not
17:35 < queip> that was quick
17:35 < belcher> /cs op #bitcoin-forks, didnt work so
17:37 < Emcy> yeah always talk to bots in the server pane lol
17:38 < grubles> https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/kq5kbx/a_supply_cap_prevents_you_from_having_guaranteed/
17:38 < Entitlement> grubles - [ 'A supply cap prevents you from having guaranteed rewards, which prevents you fr... ]
17:38 < grubles> monero people quoting vitalik now
17:38 < grubles> cringe
17:39 < gmaxwell> endless inflation doesn't create guarenteed security, lying piece of shit
17:39 < gmaxwell> as ethereum tends to infinity coins their constant inflation will become worth less and less (as eth tokens become worth less and less)
17:40 < belcher> if infinite inflation is so good why does monero's % inflation go to zero?
17:40 < belcher> i never understood monero's inflation scheme, everyone knows in finance the absolute number doesnt matter its only the % that matters
17:40 < belcher> so monero has no inflation eventually
17:40 < belcher> but they lose the talking point of "only ever 21 million coins"
17:40 < belcher> for no benefit
17:41 < belcher> also they dont have halvening dates, they have a smooth dropoff... meaning they dont get a single date for everyone in the community to obsess over
17:42 < gmaxwell> for ethereum the answer is just that it keeps the meaningful inflation coming to prop up operation long enough to exit their premine.
17:43 < grubles> they're planning on implementing fee burning too
17:43 < Emcy> sad about the monero community :(
17:43 < grubles> i guess to offset the accelerated inflation due to eth 2
17:43 < Emcy> 1 or 2 years of sideways price and everyone turns into a shithead
17:44 < Emcy> except that has happened to bitcoin too, and bitcoiners just hodled and didnt complain
17:44 < gmaxwell> well without fluffy around the more shitty factions seem to be becoming more active.
17:45 < Emcy> yeah thats what i guess, since he stepped back :(
17:46 < Emcy> also you can see twitter optimising for drama since apparently they now inform people when some third party they might now likes some tweet they were involved in
17:46 < Emcy> automatic shitstirring algorithm, very nice jack
17:48 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, any idea what the approximate cost of brute forcing WPA2 PSK is?
17:48 < phantomcircuit> i see things saying something like 1000 attempts/second on a 3090 but of course the attempts/dollar is gonna be much better than that cause $$$
17:51 < gmaxwell> 7970 is 128k attempts per second for wpa2
17:52 < gmaxwell> I think it's reasonably secure in the unlikely case the password is secure.
17:52 < gmaxwell> it's also a lot harder to capture the handshake with modern devices because they have protection against deauth attacks.
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17:58 < phantomcircuit> ;;calc (2**77) / 128000
17:58 <@gribble> 1180591620717411328
17:58 < phantomcircuit> ;;calc (2**77) / 128000 /  3600 / 24 / 365
17:58 <@gribble> 37436314710.7
17:59 < phantomcircuit> ok so at 77 bits that's probably fine against a brute force attack unless your adversary is literally the NSA and they have better ways in probably
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18:01 < Emcy> ;;tlast
18:01 <@gribble> 32813.81
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18:01 < Emcy> what 'dip'...
18:01 < grubles> 7970 is like 8 years old though
18:02 < grubles> wait no i'm thinking 5970
18:03 < phantomcircuit> grubles, sure but the newer stuff is at most 10x faster
18:06 < gmaxwell> 7970 is a recent model.
18:09 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, Q1 2011 :)
18:09 < grubles> haha i still have one actually
18:10 < midnight> only one?
18:10 < midnight> Oh, I was thinking 5970
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18:14 < lnd-bot> [lnd] wpaulino opened pull request #4895: discovery: prevent rebroadcast of premature channel updates (master...disallow-premature-chan-updates) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4895
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18:15 < grubles> i'm surprised how old 7970 is actually
18:15 < Emcy> its like 4 or 5 gens old
18:15 < grubles> i have some pretty old hardware though
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18:21 < Emcy> https://youtu.be/kiw9jkody9E men only want one thing
18:21 < Emcy> and its a sherp
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18:33 < midnight> At first I thought it was cool, and then I saw all the douchebags who like them and I don't think that anymore.
18:34 < Emcy> who cares if rappers buy them
18:34 < Emcy> what about billy bob, he seems cool
18:35 < Emcy> it has a central tyre deflation/inflation system that can let air out and then redirect engine exhaust back into them again whenever you like
18:36 < Emcy> also the wheel hubs are 15 gallon fuel tanks each
18:36 < Emcy> it floats. its amphibious.
18:37 < Emcy> its full chain driven so if it breaks and youre in the middle of alaska you can just...fix it
18:37 < Emcy> small brain: lambo. galaxy brain: sherp
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18:55 < midnight> the vendor is definitely cool
18:55 < midnight> wonder how much they cost.
18:55 < Emcy> i have no idea
18:55 < Emcy> 60 thousand dollars?
18:55 < Emcy> i dont think its a toy.....if you have a lot of rough land, i could see it being legitimately very useful
18:56 < Emcy> people who have a lot of land often have light plant and stuff to manage it anyway
18:57 < Emcy> i guess it might be more than 60k if theyre very low volume hand made/to order etc
18:58 < Emcy> 115k.....lowballed that one lol
18:58 < Emcy> must be built to order
19:06 < Emcy> grubles i think it would be nice if the jade device had an option without the radio in it?
19:06 < Emcy> when the qr camera is working
19:08 < grubles> yeah agreed
19:08 < grubles> there's a firmware option without radio support
19:09 < grubles> in the meantime
19:09 < grubles> i'm looking into how you can physically disable the radio too
19:09 < Emcy> yeah
19:11 < Emcy> perhaps you could design the board with the physical traces for the radio on the outer layer of the pcb, lined up nicely....so that you can easily slice them permanently with a craft knife if you really want to
19:11 < Emcy> the opendime has a similar destructive pcb technique for ensuring the privkeys can only be accessed if you really mean it
19:12 < Emcy> thats if you designed the case to be openable that is, but i saw some nice looking hex bolts on the outside so im guessing yes?
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19:17 < phantomcircuit> grubles, it's challenging to physically disable the radios on the esp32 stuff
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19:32 < grubles> what about the antenna
19:34 < Emcy> is it a BGA ic?
19:35 < Emcy> if it is that would be a problem
19:37 < Emcy> ideally youd want to be visually verifiable that the traces youre cutting physically lead right into your radio IC, otherwise its just kinda theatre
19:37 < Emcy> thats not possible if the chip has the pads on the bottom, instead of whatever package types are called that have legs around the edges
19:40 < Emcy> your other option is selling 2 different skus of course, though depending on how stock the hardware is in the product, that might be too custom to keep the price point at 40 dollars, perhaps
19:41 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, pretty sure they're BGA not QFN
19:42 < Emcy> well shit
19:44 < Emcy> maybe qo with a qfn radio IC for a v2 product then
19:45 < Emcy> software radio switches dont count right? we know that by now
19:45 < phantomcircuit> https://www.coindesk.com/ukraine-government-picks-stellar-to-help-build-national-digital-currency
19:45 < Entitlement> phantomcircuit - [ Ukraine Government Picks Stellar Development Foundation to Help Build National D... ]
19:45 < phantomcircuit> isn't stellar literally copy/paste of ripple?
19:55 < gmaxwell> it was originally but IIRC they adopted some random academics new and improved(?) BFT consensus.
19:55 < gmaxwell> I dunno how far they'e diverged since.
20:02 < phantomcircuit> BFT ?
20:09 < midnight> how infuriating. random game console sending out a dns query: my dns server responds within a fraction of a second, random game console issues icmp port unreach ON EXACTLY THE PORT IT JUST USED
20:09  * midnight throttles shitty developers
20:11 < midnight> *and* it's a heisenbug
20:28 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: byanzitine fault tolerant
20:30 < gmaxwell> Entitlement: none of these hardware wallet devices are particuarly secure against attackers that might be picking up radio signals or whatever.
20:30 < gmaxwell> er Emcy
20:30 < gmaxwell> presumably you could stick a resistor on the antenna connection of the thing... but being hard against sophicated attackers is basically unaddressed.
20:37 < Emcy> would the resistor trick completely arrest rf ingress/egress
20:41 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right
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20:46 < Emcy> >"In late November, Bitmain’s Antminer S19 was priced at $1,897. Now, the same machine sells for $3,769, a 98% markup."
20:46 < Emcy> wut. did bitmain halt operations while they get jihan out the door or what
20:52 < gmaxwell> ;;tlast
20:52 <@gribble> 31360.66
20:53 < gmaxwell> aww price was pegged at $31337 on gemini for a bit.
20:54 < Emcy> how can i be just reading a tweet about that and then youre saying it
20:55 < gmaxwell> presumably because the price is visible to multiple people
20:55 < Emcy> yes yes but literally within 10 seconds
20:57 < gmaxwell> turns out that price is roughly the same for everyonce at once.
20:57 < gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: I have a tab with https://cryptowat.ch/charts/GEMINI:BTC-USD  and it displays the price in the tab.
20:57 < Entitlement> gmaxwell - [ BTCUSD | Gemini live chart | Cryptowatch ]
20:58 < gmaxwell> the tab sad $31337 and I commented here.
20:59 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/notgrubles/status/1345392796446941185 3 days ago lol
21:00 < Emcy> when it hit 20k you said man i bet biz will go nuts when it hits 31337 and i thought haha yes they will
21:00 < Emcy> that was only like a week ago
21:00 < Emcy> i should see how theyre doing
21:04 < Emcy> candle wicks are error bars yes
21:06 < gmaxwell> they are suupposted to be the absolute highest and lowest trade, regardless of volume.
21:06 < gmaxwell> the thick part of the bar indicate the range that actually had volume in it.
21:07 < Emcy> yeah thats what i though
21:07 < Emcy> the wicks are outlier trades
21:08 < Emcy> ;;tlast
21:08 <@gribble> 31342.16
21:09 < Emcy> this cryptowatch site is nice
21:10 < Emcy> makes me feel like a hacker
21:10 < Emcy> see that huge wick, did someone really sell for 27k just now?
21:11 < gmaxwell> yeah, cryptowatch interface is pretty good.
21:11 < gmaxwell> on what exchange?
21:12 < Emcy> i dont know how to see that
21:12 < Emcy> its just the huge red wick on the chart
21:13 < Emcy> oh it was hours ago, the candles are hourly
21:14 < gmaxwell> ah, yeah a while ago.
21:14 < gmaxwell> the url I sent was set to gemini.
21:15 < gmaxwell> (I don't actually use gemini, but I find they are a reasonable price source)
21:16 < Emcy> its gemini then
21:16 < gmaxwell> those sorts of outlier trades can happen when a market maker pulls their orders and some idiot makes a market order.  part of the reason I don't bother looking at coinbase is because it is full of those (or at least used to be)
21:16 < gmaxwell> yeah I saw it when I looked further back
21:27 < Emcy> kinda bouncing around of 30k a bit
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22:13 < midnight> the thicker part of the candles are just where it joins to the next candle. It enters, and that forms one top/bottom of the next candle, and then it (potentially) goes up and down in that time slice.. and wherever it leaves that part of the old candle becomes the top/bottom to complete the thick part of the candle. It's possible that all the volume for that candle happened in the skinny part at
22:13 < midnight> the bottom, or the ksinny part at the top. The skinny parts show where the highest price traded in that time slice was, and the lowest.
22:14 < midnight> If the exit is above the entry, then the candle is green. if the exit is below the entry, that candle is red.
22:14 < midnight> you can see this by just lining up the candle ends across the time slices.
22:15 < midnight> In the places where it doesn't line up, there was a discontinuity in the price across the time slices.
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22:23 < midnight> literally for this *entire* bullrun, kraken CAD has been thousands, sometimes multiple thousands of USD below the actual spot price.
22:30 < midnight> I don't think there is another ticker site that can be made as pretty as cryptowat.ch, though other places will show you different data sometimes that is better: https://0bin.net/paste/g4YC5pAx#ke-hpFuMd+3OwwGtfgP24ZIJFDENG+C4OfBVWjlN2WS
22:30 < Entitlement> midnight - [ 0bin - encrypted pastebin ]
22:30 < midnight> that's just straight up pretty
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 05 00:00:06 2021