--- Log opened Sat Jan 09 00:00:10 2021
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00:12 < phantomcircuit> Emcy, fools
00:15 < Emcy> at least mozilla is irrelevant now
00:25 < Emcy> >(one reportedly died due to accidentally tasering himself, inducing a heart attack).
00:25 < Emcy> what a shitshow
00:29 < nkuttler> sigh, they should get their tech in order before dabbling in politics
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01:03 < Emcy> just reading the strike global thing
01:04 < Emcy> seems interesting. Its LN but the company does all the LN stuff and your fiat directly interfaces with it
01:05 < Emcy> theyre essentially using LN [and bitcoin itself] as value backhaul
01:06 < Emcy> if it catches on maybe we can bring that Western Union meme back in good conscience
01:06 < Emcy> that was about a decade premature at the time but i guess people didnt know better
01:07 < Emcy> ;;tlast
01:07 <@gribble> 40672.37
01:08 < Emcy> the guy in the video on the page seems like hes been on the sunny d though lol
01:12 < phantomcircuit> ;;ticker --high
01:12 <@gribble> 42000.0
01:12 < phantomcircuit> still blazeit
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01:14 < Emcy> we need to come up with a better meme number before the ATH will breach again
01:14 < Emcy> idk 42000 is pretty powerful, might be another 3 year bear coming up
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01:16 < Emcy> 80085
01:16 < Emcy> yes of course. advanced warning bitcoin 80k soon
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01:26 < gmaxwell> oooh good meme number.
01:28 < gmaxwell> man I youtube searched 80085 to see if there was something that could be converted to a bitcoin meme and .. there is some weird shit.
01:28 < phantomcircuit> rofll
01:29 < Emcy> lol what is this
01:29 < Emcy> anime
01:29 < Emcy> not sure what gohan reaching SSJ 3 has to do with 80085
01:32 < Emcy> what the fuck is this clown girl
01:33 < Emcy> im out
01:34 < gmaxwell> I didn't play that, but thats what caused me to comment.
01:34 < Emcy> play it...
01:39 < gmaxwell> I think not.
01:40 < gmaxwell> thats like "oh this smells terrible, check it out"
01:41 < Emcy> https://media1.tenor.com/images/33cd01ab9884e33fc0848c1b5d6904e0/tenor.gif?itemid=13733212
01:41 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ gif (498 x 320) ]
01:41 < gmaxwell> haha
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02:23 < Emcy> https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/ktn97e/bitcoin_bch_accepted_at_the_australian_hotel/
02:23 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ Bitcoin BCH - accepted at the Australian Hotel : btc ]
02:28 < Emcy> nevermind im wrong
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03:52 < Veggen> Hmm, 70% of BCH transactions is apparently from noise.cash
03:53 < Veggen> not sure if actual messages is on the BCH blockchain, but the tippings are.
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04:29 < queip> well at least mcdonnalds also denounced recent events. lol
04:29 < queip> nkuttler: or how about never
04:30 < nkuttler> ?
04:30 < waxwing> is something happening on twatter, i just saw several new fediverse/mastodon follows
04:31 < belcher> twotter banned donald trump
04:31 < queip> nkuttler: I am replying to your most recent comment, about when Mozilla should get into politics
04:32 < waxwing> belcher, i see, conceivably could be related i guess. i feel like the bitcoin crowd just gave up the whole 'move to mastodon' thing.
04:32 < nkuttler> queip: open source in itself is kind of political, so it's not entirely alien to them as an org
04:32 < waxwing> i feel like in retrospect the biggest reason they won't move to another platform is actually people love the feed algorithm they claim to hate :)
04:32 < nkuttler> but i don't think open source projects should engage in day to day political topics
04:32 < queip> nkuttler: aren't we talking about USA woke politics, instead of just the meta-topic  of opensource, as in "of course we should legalize open source licence"
04:33 < queip> ye
04:33 < queip> waxwing: very good
04:33 < queip> mastodon is another boomer tech, but it is worse because it pretends to be distributed
04:33 < belcher> waxwing i wouldnt call it love, more like they're hooked on it
04:33 < belcher> the hits of dopamine must be addictive
04:34 < queip> it is merly partially distributed, but relying still on central ICANN organization
04:34 < belcher> i cant really talk i mostly use twitter too, though i try not to post much (and obviously try not to rage at things)
04:34 < waxwing> yes i think it is addictive. that waas a secondary reason i stopped using it.
04:35 < queip> to highlight difference: I can use bitcoin even if ICANN bans every domain, and CA refuses every SSL cert, and ISPs ban every IP, that is related to bitcoin.  (though would take quite some effort if all world's  ISP would be mostly doing that, but by design is very possible)
04:37 < queip> while Mastodon ties your ident to a DNS name. not your domain not your identity. I prefer not your seckey not your identity
04:38 < waxwing> honestly mastodon as a network is a bit of a mess, it's full of SJWs trying very hard to ban everything and anything they don't like. but the fediverse is bigger than that, see e.g. pleroma
04:38 < queip> Emcy: mcdonalds denounced it, top lol. "...burgers??"
04:39 < queip> waxwing: good points but still the DNS/CA/ISP issue remains. I used better darknets 10 years ago. What is this regression?
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04:41 < waxwing> i mean to be trite i don't consider my ID being tied to an instance to be that much of a problem. i can use gpg and stuff.
04:42 < waxwing> yeah i'd prefer key based identity though; i'm not sure all users would, though.
04:42 < waxwing> you can actually import follows when you move instances, but obviously that is not exactly great.
04:43 < queip> waxwing: yeah all this things, Trump, scihub, Milo Yiannopoulos, *could* use GPG, sure. so what?? they can also go door-to-door with a printed out brochure, about as much platform reach...
04:44 < queip> Bitcoin by default supporting Tor makes it easy to totally ignore any global DNS/CA, and any local ISP (even global ISP) problems.  (yes I know we dont need CA, just mentioning)
04:45 < belcher> oh yeah twutter also banned sci hub
04:45 < waxwing> i agree mastodon itself doesn't tick all the boxes at all. but it is federated and foss and that counts a huge amount already.
04:45 < queip> belcher: you should read more backlog. Also when not starting inquisition against anyone mentioning anything besides btc
04:46 < belcher> (we can all be proud that sci hub accepts bitcoin donations, indeed thats the only realistic way to fund them)
04:46 < queip> waxwing: sometimes doing things half-way is worse then not doing them at all
04:46 < waxwing> i think we should use instances like shitposter.club rather than all these mastodon ones, although using our own ones like x0f.org and bitcoinhackers.org is ok
04:46 < queip> *than
04:47 < waxwing> (half joking about shitposter.club, but only half)
04:48 < queip> good summary imo was: 1) use truly distributed tech  and  2) church of woke will crucify anything that is truthful (emperical), from "there are 2 genders" to science; any any dissident
04:51 < queip> around 2005-2015 world stopped carrying about anticensorship, darknets. all "activism" moved from "run tor bro" to "cis males bad bro" then to bash the [imaginary]fash, through bash orange man bad, now we're at bash science
04:52 < queip> * "they like science insofar as it helps them rub opponents noses in stuff, they stop liking it when it says things like you cannot reasonably say that a 2 year old is trans, or something"
04:55 < queip> 2010-2015
04:58 < queip> can we (the mostly normal users) recreate the coolness of cryptopunkhs? unlike doing everything on muh blockchain, doing many/all things on  tor/decentr-social/etc doesn't have big downside. (and is much easier/faster than 10 years ago)
05:17 < waxwing> i wish there was just a simple, general discussion forum on tor where people could opt-in to their own filters, to address the four horsemen of the infocalypse argument
05:17 < waxwing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse
05:17 < Entitlement> waxwing - [ Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse - Wikipedia ]
05:18 < waxwing> people will say spam, i guess we went over this a bit with bitmessage, but i mean i don't think it needs to be so souped-up
05:19 < waxwing> this is interesting, i tried it out, but obviously it's super-niche: https://sphinx.chat/
05:19 < Entitlement> waxwing - [ Sphinx ]
05:21 < queip> waxwing: bad idea, would end up like Silk Road.  I am not sure why I need to point out this obvious facts :)
05:22 < queip> waxwing: there is currently ONE totally decentralized chat in the world, that kind of works. The FMS system on Freenet.
05:22 < queip> it lacks a lot of things to be usable, but the idea behind it is a good start
05:22 < queip> *distributed
05:24 < waxwing> why would it end up like silk road?
05:25 < queip> waxwing: ... really? because if it steps on someone powerful toes, or makes SJWs angry, FBI will eventually take it down. Or simply at some point admin will resign and shut it down (either bored, broke or bribed) as with Voat
05:26 < waxwing> it isn't the same as silk road because it's not taking money. as for voat it isn't the same because it's on tor
05:26 < queip> heaving the server on Tor as hidden-service removes DNS/IP/CA attack, but still a server is a single point of failure
05:26 < waxwing> i mean you can certainly make those arguments but it isn't trivial
05:26 < queip> anything that has "the server" is bad
05:26 < waxwing> but if you argue it's like voat because no one will be interested, well it's hard to disagree based on empirical evidence
05:26 < waxwing> yeah the "the server" is a very big issue
05:27 < waxwing> it reminds me of an idea i had some time ago, maybe stupid but: if people only really like single-server based systems, build a way to package such a thing such that it can transfer ownership frictionlessly
05:27 < queip> (this is all about good tech. question how fast would pionieers and later hopefully early adopters, and masses, move to the tech, is outside of my scope, I just assume if tech is really SECURE, and can be made usable/fast/easy, then eventually they will)
05:27 < waxwing> like every few months such a thing migrating from one ownership to another with cryptographic control. a bit of a vague idea, perhaps not sensible.
05:29 < belcher> how about something like bittorrent, the content can be download from any peer and you use hashes to ensure the pieces were not changed
05:29 < belcher> we're trying to build some kind of censorship-resistant forum or microblog ?
05:29 < queip> waxwing: maybe interesting academically, but we already know The solution. Distributed content-based platforms. Only data exists, everyone can mirror/cache it. Users are keys.
05:30 < queip> belcher: this is Freenet, yes
05:31 < queip> Freenet itself will not win the masses because it is super slow as consequence of lacking any kind of "txfee" and edhering to more of communist ethos (miraculously it works for tor so far, but only for a time, and FNs time is very close as it is massively more resource demanding)
05:32 < queip> but a good example of the post-IP, post-Internet, post-client/server, "web of data" can be
05:33 < belcher> did things like voat fail? if so why
05:33 < queip> belcher: luckily I written just that 8 mintues ago, let me paste: "Or simply at some point admin will resign and shut it down (either bored, broke or bribed) as with Voat"
05:41 < queip> this are all axioms and FAQs of Bitcoin, but s/transactions/data and s/blockchain/DHT.  and they do not do txfee usually but that is their mistake that eventually will need to be fixed to succeed
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07:14 < grubles> zeronet?
07:15 < waxwing> was bittorrent a success or failure? because it doesn't have fees.
07:15 < waxwing> assuming justin hasn't already changed that lol
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07:18 < gmaxwell> well the bittorrent dht stuff mostly doesn't work, except for the very most popular content.
07:20 < gmaxwell> 12:34 < belcher> i cant really talk i mostly use twitter too, though i try not to post much (and obviously try not to rage at things)
07:20 < grubles> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/
07:20 < Entitlement> grubles - [ We need more than deplatforming - The Mozilla Blog ]
07:20 < gmaxwell> Beef. It's whats for twitter.
07:20 < grubles> wth mozilla
07:21 < gmaxwell> grubles: if you ignore the headline I think it isn't saying much of anything concerning.
07:24 < grubles> yeah that's true but the headline is kind of implying taking a side which is IMO kind of odd to read for a company building a web browser
07:26 < gmaxwell> agreed, but it's just the cultural brainworms talking.
07:26 < grubles> "exploit the architecture of the internet"
07:26 < grubles> lol come on the man just had a twitter account
07:28 < grubles> i'm not even pro-trump fwiw
07:31 < queip> waxwing: bittorent I guess was a success, but only for the popular files. you wouldn't store on it your own data, neither "backups" (encrypted) nor public data like your blog, if not enough people would be interested in it then it would be gone once you/your computer is gone - similar to Freenet
07:32 < queip> also, less popular data on bittorent, afair, like some niche movies (from what I read) might be hard to get even if you would be fine with paying some cents to get it (this is for places where this would be legal /disclaimer)
07:32 < gmaxwell> queip: expecting other people to expend resources for your data ... probably not the most realistic expectation.
07:32 < queip> gmaxwell: that is my point, yes
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07:42 < belcher> a retarget just happened and the difficulty rose by ~10%
07:42 < gmaxwell> this might be interesting.
07:43 < gmaxwell> MV = PQ  vs FUD,  FIGHT.
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08:51 < andytoshi> lol at mozilla
08:51 < andytoshi> not even pretending anymore, just explicitly pro-censorship
08:52 < andytoshi> e.g. at least in http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/04/26/synchronous-text/ they bothered to lie about IRC being less accessible than their random closed javascript-requiring censorship garden
08:52 < Entitlement> andytoshi - [ Synchronous Text « blarg? ]
08:52 < andytoshi> oh, that's not moz, it's just cited in https://blog.rust-lang.org/2019/04/26/Mozilla-IRC-Sunset-and-the-Rust-Channel.html
08:52 < Entitlement> andytoshi - [ Mozilla IRC Sunset and the Rust Channel | Rust Blog ]
08:55 < gmaxwell> it's just some weird cult thing going on.
08:57 < gmaxwell> just like insisting that people not call the people who went into the capitol protesters but 'insurrectionists'.
08:57 < andytoshi> right, it's bizarre that they'd take such a pointed stance on something like that
08:58 < andytoshi> can you imagine in 2005 telling them "yeah, somebody will say some bad shit then there'll be a single riot and then Mozilla will publish articles saying free speech was a mistake"
08:59 < ossifrage> gmaxwell, I've used dht to download some really obscure stuff. I've only had it fail with stuff that was very large and very old.
09:00 < andytoshi> ossifrage: i routinely can't find stuff on public trackers, even fairly well-known things
09:00 < gmaxwell> ossifrage: for example, we tried to use trackerless torrents for bitcoin on several occasions and found that they almost never worked.
09:00 < ossifrage> I was always amazed that it does work for weird stuff
09:01 < andytoshi> yeah, i am often amazed ... but more often disappointed :P
09:01 < gmaxwell> you can find things there but there is no guarentee that any particular thing which is actually available will be findable via the dht.
09:02 < ossifrage> bittorrent in general is amazing. Like downloading 1.2TB of training data for neural nets (took a month, but I got the whole thing)
09:04 < andytoshi> it's also often the fastest way to get linux isos
09:04 < andytoshi> at least for arch
09:04 < gmaxwell> ossifrage: it's okay, we know that you're not really making a tentacle porn identifier AI.
09:05 < gmaxwell> .price bsv btc
09:05 < deb0rah> bittrex 0.00709835 [+70.47%] | hitbtc 0.00721300 [+73.35%] | southxchange 0.00755226 [+82.00%] |
09:05 < ossifrage> in the private tracker I use for video stuff, they have some impressively large porn torrents (like 5TB torrents).
09:07 < ossifrage> this is the same site that has a 1.4TB torrent of Snooker tournament
09:08 < ossifrage> 0.7% is for winners
09:08 < gmaxwell> .price bch btc
09:08 < deb0rah> binance 0.01238700 [+16.52%] | bittrex 0.01239000 [+16.27%] | southxchange 0.01288295 [+19.63%] | hitbtc 0.01237000 [+16.37%] | bleutrade 0.01273800 [+3.81%] | graviex 0.01200167 [-11.09%] | poloniex 0.01233025 [+16.00%] | kraken 0.01237000 [+15.93%] |
09:09 < gmaxwell> sounds like some big time suckers out there.
09:10 < andytoshi> does anyone know where i can get historical bitcoin price data at specific times, in a machine readable format
09:10 < ossifrage> I would have thought BCH would have collapsed by now and not managed to track bitcoin
09:10 < andytoshi> i'm willing to pay for a service
09:10 < andytoshi> just not $1000s/month :P
09:12 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: yes!
09:13 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: https://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/csv/
09:15 < andytoshi> nice!
09:16 < Old_Man> andytoshi, I usually just go, "oocalc cryptocurrencies.ods"
09:17 < Old_Man> But my resolution is only daily.
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09:39 < queip> what?! well thanks a lot ossifrage
09:39  * queip throws away his OpenCL rig
09:39 < queip> all for nothing, harumpf
09:39  * queip puts on pants
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09:43 < queip> last news update from 2017 lol https://bitcoincharts.com/
09:45 < andytoshi> Old_Man: i think i'm gonna store prices at 30-minute intervals, which is enough res to get me "market open" and "market close" prices, and low enough that i can store it uncompressed in my homedir indefinitely without needing to futz with my rsync script (which i think will re-transfer the entire file on every backup even if i'm only adding lines to it)
09:52 < Old_Man> I thought rsync used cryptographic hashes on blocks?
09:53 < andytoshi> oh, yeah, you're probably right
09:54 < Old_Man> Well double check before you make any plans... my memories are all from long ago and quite prone to corruption :)
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09:59 < andytoshi> lol, well, if it turns out that it only has file resolution it's easy for me to later split things up into multiple files
09:59 < andytoshi> but like .. there are only 48 half-hour spots in a day, so even if i manage to take a kilobyte for every price snapshot, that's 17Mb/year
10:00 < ossifrage> queip, you where trying to make a tentacle porn classifier as well?
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10:39 < belcher> 100mb mempool but 70mb of that is cheaper than 10 sat/vb
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11:56 < ossifrage> belcher, my client lists 74k txn and ~345MB
11:58 < belcher> mine is 73k but ~102mb... so same number of txes but different size?
11:58 < ossifrage> 74700, 345.61MB
12:00 < ossifrage> the ui reports the overhead. "size": 72138, "bytes": 102118399, "usage": 341480496,
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12:18 < andytoshi> lol why did bch shoot to 40 blocks an hour
12:38 < gmaxwell> bitcoin difficulty increased 10%
12:40 < gmaxwell> and I think miners have braindamaged switching logic or something because the diff increase didn't result in BCH being more proftable, due to fees.
12:46 < belcher> we just had an empty block lolol
12:47 < gmaxwell> rip fibre.
12:48 < gmaxwell> btc topped missed out on a bitcoin worth of fees there.
12:49 < gmaxwell> (okay, well 0.8 BTC to be precise)
12:50 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, in theory you should be able to construct the current block for both and calculate the expected value of finding that block
12:50 < belcher> its timestamp is actually 3 seconds before the earlier one
12:50 < phantomcircuit> in practice pools that are reliable have distributed architectures which makes that kind of decision making difficult
12:51 < phantomcircuit> throw into that politics of people on pools not wanting to be switched against their direction and you have something a lot more complicated than it seems
12:51 < gmaxwell> belcher: the timestamps on blocks are all skewed forward due to excessive ntime rolling.
12:51 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ntime rolling is actually a thing now?
12:51 < gmaxwell> has been for a long time.
12:53 < belcher> i wonder if miners could pick some transactions fairly far down in the mempool to mine in the case that they're still waiting for a block to be downloaded and verified
12:53 < phantomcircuit> i didn't see it at all until asicboost became a thing
12:53 < belcher> when will we have that soft fork to increase the block interval then?
12:53 < phantomcircuit> i guess now that nobody is doing the tree shuffling stuff it's much more common?
12:54 < belcher> ntime rolling is when miners step the timestamp forward because they ran out of nonces to try?
12:54 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right, it's particularly interesting if you're using asicboost but its stuck around even once overt ab became common.
12:54 < gmaxwell> belcher: yes.
12:55 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i guess there was a bunch of stuff using it for covert asic boost that just kept using it to reduce busy work
12:55 < gmaxwell> belcher: when matt shut off his public fibre nodes the number of empty blocks went up >10x.
12:56 < gmaxwell> belcher: you can't just include blocks down the mempool as they might be conflicted by mined blocks (or depend on missing parents)
12:56 < belcher> after inflation goes to zero mining empty blocks will be pointless
12:56 < belcher> so perhaps then mining on txes further down the mempool might be preferable to turning off the miner for those seconds
12:57 < gmaxwell> already it's dumb for miners to not fix this, losing >10% of the reward... but yolo.
12:57 < gmaxwell> 20:56 < belcher> so perhaps then mining on txes further down the mempool might be preferable to turning off the miner for those seconds
12:57 < gmaxwell> again, that isn't an alternative at all.
12:57 < gmaxwell> You can't just include further down txn.
12:57 < gmaxwell> your block will likely be invalid.
12:58 < belcher> if the txes conflict only ~30% of the time its still worth doing
12:58 < belcher> then again.. if you simply switch off you dont spend the electricity
12:58 < gmaxwell> belcher: take out the 'further down' part, just mine the next block if you don't care about invalidity.
12:58 < belcher> how would miners fix it? doesnt it inherently come from finite propagation time
12:59 < gmaxwell> fibre substantially fixes it, propagation can be made arbitarly small.
12:59 < belcher> any idea what the rate of empty blocks was before fibre was switched off? sure it went up 10x but perhaps it was a really low baseline then
12:59 < gmaxwell> (Obviously you need to see the prior blocks header at least, but propagation can be made equal to that)
13:00 < gmaxwell> belcher: yes, it was really low-- it's still not particularly common now.
13:00 < gmaxwell> I published numbers somewhere.
13:01 < phantomcircuit> should ... should i tell him that the cake people lost ? https://i.redd.it/nb35x03bqba61.jpg
13:01 < Entitlement> phantomcircuit - [ jpeg (689 x 960) ]
13:01 < gmaxwell> but it was on the order of averaging 1 a month to averaging 13 a month.
13:02 < belcher> so lets say worst case 13/month, and now its 130/month... thats nearly a days worth of mining per month lost
13:02 < belcher> 3-4% in other words today
13:02 < belcher> unless my maths is wrong
13:02 < belcher> if not, we really need that block-interval-increase soft fork
13:04 < gmaxwell> I don't follow your comment about a soft fork, how does gross incompetence from pool operators (because they just pass the losses onto the hashes, so it doesn't cost them much) translate into a need for a soft fork.
13:04 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, fibre was an extension of that compact blocks in bitcoin with udp and fec right?
13:05 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes.
13:05 < belcher> well, iv got a long standing fantasy about making it possible to mine bitcoin over tor... that isnt possible at all because of the latency but would be if the block interval was 60 minutes... but yes you're right pools just setting up their own fibre is another way to solve this
13:05 < gmaxwell> in particular it makes block transmission work with 0rtt unconditionally even if there are missing txn.
13:06 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i cant remember, does it try to keep track of which transactions the remote peer has in their mempool?
13:06 < gmaxwell> belcher: it's perfectly possible to mine over tor, it'll be worth it to use some alternative protocol to realy your blocks back.
13:07 < belcher> possible to earn a profit doing that? wont tor's latency kill the miners profit
13:07 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it doesn't have to, because magic.  Missing transactions are just FEC erasures, so it doesn't have to have any knoweldge about what the other side might be missing.
13:08 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, which code did he end up using?
13:08 < gmaxwell> belcher: You'll lose a couple percent if both sides are on tor (meaning you also rx blocks over tor)-- if that kills your profit or not depend on what your margins are.  Right now, it wouldn't kill anyone. :)
13:08 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: wirehair.
13:09 < belcher> i suppose in the situation of unregulated miners earning money from mining transactions which regulated pools censor, there should be enough extra revenue from fees to cover the added loss from tor latency
13:09 < phantomcircuit> https://github.com/catid/wirehair
13:09 < Entitlement> phantomcircuit - [ GitHub - catid/wirehair: Wirehair : O(N) Fountain Code for Large Data ]
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13:11 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes.  catid's later leopard would also work okay, though in benchmarking matt found wirehair was a hair faster. Probably if something like fibre eventually became a standard bitcoin thing leopard should probably be used.
13:12 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, this could be incorporated into core over the existing tcp connection to achieve zero rtt transmission, only disadvantage would be when you lose packets
13:12 < gmaxwell> Yes.
13:12 < phantomcircuit> why leopard over wirehair
13:12 < Emcy> what do you means 'fibre was switched off'
13:12 < gmaxwell> Because wirehair may violate a qualcomm patent, and because leopard is just a plain RS code so a *lot* simpler to specify.
13:13 < gmaxwell> Emcy: matt's public fibre nodes, he also stopped maintaining the software.
13:13 < Emcy> so fibre is gone???
13:14 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: leopard is just an ordinary RS code but with an extremely fast implementation.  Depending on the size/loss rate one or the other might be faster, for blocks they were very close to tied.
13:14 < gmaxwell> Emcy: well, the public network is... the protocol work lives on in the blockstream sat stuff.
13:15 < Emcy> wow ok
13:15 < Emcy> thats a shame
13:15 < Emcy> is matt just tired of bitcoin or something
13:15 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's not like supporting UDP (optionally) is that huge of a deal though.  It's a PITA if you need nattraversal but otherwise.
13:16 < gmaxwell> Emcy: well he was paying out of pocket to run it, and people were largely indifferent to it.  He marketed its importance extremely poorly, you only know about it due to me probably.
13:17 < Emcy> probably
13:17 < Emcy> hm what a shame
13:17 < gmaxwell> a bit before he shut it down I was working on a video about it, and I dug up some prior talk he gave about it ... and on stage he basically described it as not very interesting.
13:17 < Emcy> another example of miners not being arsed to fund their own infrastructure
13:17 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's kind of annoying cause optimally you shove all your data into udp packets that are less than the fragmentation threshold
13:17 < phantomcircuit> but it's super annoying to find that value
13:18 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: he just picked a value a bit under the normal MTU, in practice 1492 byte or whatever packets make it everywhere.
13:18 < phantomcircuit> if your udp packets are larger than the mtu then packet loss is amplified and you're honestly better off with tcp
13:18 < gmaxwell> (I'd have to look up the number)
13:18 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not with using the FEC...
13:18 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ethernet is 1500
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13:19 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Right but due to PPPoE a fair number of paths aren't 1500 clean.
13:19 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, if you're sending 64k udp packets and the mtu is 1470 then losing one packet loses all 64k
13:19 < gmaxwell> lol 1492 is, in fact, the number.
13:19 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ethernet is 1500, but that includes the pppoe, ip, and udp headers
13:19 < phantomcircuit> but wait what if you're on ipv6? now it's a different value
13:20 < phantomcircuit> but wait what if there's ipv6 options being used? now it's anothing
13:20 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I do know how this stuff works... having worked for a major networking hardware vendor for a decade. :)
13:20 < phantomcircuit> yeah im pointing out that from an application perspective it's actually harder to get right than from configuring a router perspective
13:21 < phantomcircuit> you end up having to do path mtu in the application or something silly
13:24 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol yes im aware :)
13:24 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, but you know the size of the ip/udp headers (28 bytes).  And you can just assume the phy mtu is 1492 and that covers 99.999% of links.  Set DF bit and you'll just have anything smaller drop the packets.
13:24 < gmaxwell> v6 guarentees that 1280 (or whatever the exact number) will always make it through
13:25 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the cool thing is that if it's optional you can just try with df set and then just consider udp blocked otherwise.
13:26 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: though I think actually hitting fragmentation would not make you better off with tcp here:  the fragmentation will 2x your loss rate, okay fine, but fibre handles that fine... so it still wins.
13:27 < midnight> "Your item arrived at a facility in CANADA on January 8, 2021 at 1:29 pm."  Three different times. Yeah that's not ominous at all.
13:27 < gmaxwell> the way fibre works on two way connections, at least in matts implementation, is that the sender just keeps sending data until the far end says "enough!" (it has a cap of 8x redundancy to avoid wasting bandwidth when the peer went down)
13:28 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc ipv6 'guarantees' a minimum mtu of 1280... but no implementation does
13:28 < gmaxwell> midnight: I sold an ethernet switch to someone in canada and it disappeared into the post with vague messages like that for a month.
13:28 < phantomcircuit> since you can always add more vpn layers
13:28 < phantomcircuit> midnight, canada post is completely fucked, your package is in a literal giant pile in a warehouse
13:28 < phantomcircuit> dec 22nd they had contractors in minivans delivering things ala amazong
13:29 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah if you're only slightly off then it's fine, you get 50% less throughput but that doesn't matter with proper fec
13:29 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you're aware that ipv6 has no in-path fragmenting right?  you _must_ support 1280 to the end or it just won't work.
13:30 < phantomcircuit> it'll work fine as long as all your packets are small
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13:30 < phantomcircuit> :)
13:30 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 'my ssh works', 'ping works'
13:30 < phantomcircuit> also i like that this is called leopard
13:31 < phantomcircuit> 'leopards ate my face'
13:31 < phantomcircuit> lamf is the name of the protocol
13:31 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you won't get 50% less throughput, the fragmenting doesn't half your throughput, though it does decrease it some because of the extra IP headers.
13:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you'll get 100% more packet loss
13:32 < phantomcircuit> anyways i think the real answer is nobody stacks 12 vpns
13:32 < gmaxwell> yes, but if your packet loss is 1% or whatever, it becomes 2%.
13:33 < phantomcircuit> iono if this is the norm but most links i've had packet loss on go from 0 to 20 to 50 to 0
13:33 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: my thought is just that use of UDP by bitcoin could simply be best effort. It tries a 1492 byte packet with DF set (or the similar figure for v6), if it doesn't make it through then it just acts like UDP is firewalled off.
13:34 < phantomcircuit> presumably they already have a bunch of fec at the link layer, so what im seeing is the connection getting to the edge of what that fec can handle
13:34 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: for international links like US to china, its normal for long term average loss rate to be between 1 and 3%.
13:34 < gmaxwell> yeah for resi links you're just seeing the FEC get saturated.
13:34 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think that's basically unique to the great firewall randomly eating packets but yeah that is important
13:35 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's also true between US and europe,  tcp congest control basically guarentees links have loss unless they're massively underused.
13:35 < phantomcircuit> i think my favorite is whatever provider ovh uses does packet shaping on transatlantic links
13:35 < gmaxwell> as tcp keeps sending more until it has loss.  (RIP ECN)
13:35 < phantomcircuit> they shrink your tcp window to like nothing
13:37 < phantomcircuit> iirc a huge amount of their traffic was bittorrent which is all micro transport protocol (udp with backoff based on timestamps)
13:37 < phantomcircuit> i've definitely caught them changing tcp window sizes before
13:38 < phantomcircuit> i write a really shit udp file transfer thing that just spammed all the segments you asked it for
13:38 < gmaxwell> are they changing them or just using modified kernels?
13:38 < phantomcircuit> all of a sudden i get 1gbps again
13:38 < phantomcircuit> actually changing them on the wire, the sent and received syn and syn/ack didn't match tcpdumps
13:38 < phantomcircuit> this was like 10 years ago though so who knows what they're doing now
13:39 < phantomcircuit> maybe they just have a giant memory bank doing traffic queueing
13:39 < phantomcircuit> bbl i require a shower
13:40 < Emcy> bittorrents dht really works that badly at finding a key value? sometimes i would wait 10 or 20 minutes for it but it came back with a peer in the end, unless the torrent was just dead
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13:41 < Emcy> i know its configures with pretty extreme anti dos/spam parameters
13:41 < gmaxwell> Emcy: how do you know if the torrent is actually dead?
13:41 < Emcy> but it is the largest public bht in the world
13:41 < gmaxwell> Emcy: for bitcoin we knew because we (developers) were all seeding it.
13:42 < Emcy> gmaxwell well if there is no return after like 30 mins....probably dead
13:42 < Emcy> theres no way to know for sure
13:42 < gmaxwell> Emcy: dht's are mostly shit, and bittorrent dht in particular has a lot of commercial activity interested in fucking with it. There are even ISPs that specialize on getting you IPs in many different /8s just for that purposes.
13:43 < gmaxwell> Emcy: no return after 30 minutes also can mean bt DHT just fucking up.
13:43 < Emcy> i mean, define shit.....bittorrents dht operates under extremely, extremely adverse circumstances. and it mostly continues working in my experience
13:44 < Emcy> i mean i used to put up trackerless torrent on 4chan [/t/] all the time, by just adding some file to my client then posting the magnet URI
13:45 < Emcy> there is a 2 terabyte torrent of playstation 2 isos out there that i think im responsible for saving from oblivion this way
13:45 < Emcy> i used to use 4channers as my torrent cache lol
13:46 < gmaxwell> may well be that anything posted on 4chan automatically gets enough users on it to be viable.
13:46 < Emcy> maybe....often i had just 1 or 2 peers on what id post though
13:48 < Emcy> maybe silly question but you didnt try your experiments from unconnectable nodes did you [either open port, or working udp holepunch etc]
13:48 < Emcy> the dht might find a peer, but unless you can connect to that peer and download the torrent manifest, it doesnt look like anything actually happened
13:48 < Emcy> in most clients ive used anyway
13:49 < gmaxwell> fair question, but no.. obviously not.
13:49 < gmaxwell> and switching to a trackered torrent instantly fixed it.
13:49 < Emcy> oh well
13:50 < Emcy> the nature of dhts is that theyre probabilistic anyway i think
13:51 < Emcy> its worth noting that there are actually 2 public bittorrent dhts out there also
13:51 < Emcy> the azureus/vuze kademlia one, and the mainline one. they have slightly different parameters afaik
13:54 < gmaxwell> when I looked into it the issue I think was just that items were getting thrown out if they weren't being requested/reinserted at a rate consistent with dozens of participants.
13:55 < Emcy> might be the anti spam parameters
13:56 < Emcy> indian copyright merc company were at one point trying very hard to break the entire global dht, i think i read that well over 90% of the database at that time was useless fake data
13:57 < gmaxwell> yep
13:57 < Emcy> and last that i heard, the total size of every key branch in the dht put together was like 160gb
13:58 < Emcy> https://btdig.com if you want to query the dht directly
13:59 < Emcy> https://btdig.com/3565ee0aad31726b6b25f0cf2ab31a0ce3ecddc1/bitcoin-blockchain
13:59 < Emcy> theres a blast from the past
14:01 < Emcy> jesus i wonder if anyone trolls the DHT for wallet files
14:01 < Emcy> ive found people who seem to have accidentally torrented their entire My Documents folder and stuff on this site before
14:01 < gmaxwell> I filled edonkey up with fake wallets years ago.
14:02 < Emcy> o very nice
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14:02 < gmaxwell> I assume that some are among the ones that people are still selling to shitty idiots years later now.
14:13 < Emcy> https://i.redd.it/o5vo79ggbca61.png lol what
14:13 < Entitlement> Emcy - [ png (720 x 546) ]
14:14 < Emcy> oh diff went up 10%
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14:27 < gmaxwell> Emcy: you should find this broadly agreeable: https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1347996829237997568
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14:36 < Emcy> the whole thread or just that tweet?
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14:38 < Emcy> kind of a lot more level headed than i expected from doctorow in the current environment
14:39 < Emcy> he makes 2 mistakes though, he assumes that 'hate speech' if something that was ever intended to actually be defined, let alone possible to define. Its not.
14:40 < Emcy> its a policy fiction that was invented and injected into the discourse 2 or 3 years ago for ulterior machiavellian purposes
14:43 < Emcy> and he also assumes that any attempt to define it and enforce against it will be consistent enough that trolls would be able to weaponise it. Which is just lol, lefty 'hate speech' [of the worst genocidal-language kind even, IE i showed you arthur chu the other day] almost never gets enforced against. The mod just looks at the participants, figures out who is left and who is right and bans based on that.
14:43 < Emcy> none of it is meant to be consistent, or even make sense. Its all just a weapon.
14:44 < Emcy> so i mean overall id agree with cory on principle.....its just that none of this stuff is operating according to any real principles, and frankly i think he does know that
14:45 < Emcy> hes a weird one though....i still sometimes see him talk cogently about these topics, other times hes just frothing like the rest of them
14:46 < gmaxwell> I think he says exactly the opposite, that it's not definable, and even if you were to define it that it isn't a useful bright line.
14:47 < Emcy> yes but doesnt he say that the companies should then do it anyway, and thats ok because there are 'other social spaces with different mores'
14:47 < Emcy> there arnet....parler was an other space, and now its being murdered before our eyes
14:47 < gmaxwell> he's saying that companies should ban whatever they don't like, should be frank about it, and we shouldn't have monopolies.
14:50 < Emcy> yes but i think he knows that we cant not have monopolies, for a handful of interconnected reasons [total lack of antitrust enforcement like he mentioned, and the fact that EG parler, which is actually a milquetoast conservative website afaik, is getting murdered because people have screenshotted a few wingnut posts and are sending them to their hgosting providers etc]
14:50 < Emcy> if parler isnt allowed to exist, none of them ever will be. Which is the point
14:51 < Emcy> they dont want tehre to be other places where conservatives/the right can go and talk about whatever they talk about. They want them to jsut fuck off and die.
14:53 < Emcy> basically what im saying is that 5 years ago i would had nodded with doctorow here. But ive seen too much in the meanwhile not to understand whats really going on with all this, and i think he must have too
14:54 < Emcy> the only way any of it makes any consistent sense, is if you discount and and all principle and consider it by game theory only
14:54 < Emcy> theyre minmaxing for sociopolitical power. its that simple
14:58 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1347996818030829568
14:59 < Emcy> i mean he is completely correct here. Which makes me wonder why he is fundamentally on the side of the people doing it
14:59 < gmaxwell> I don't agree that he is.
15:00 < gmaxwell> The solution to this problem isn't e.g. for twitter to leave up trump because even if they leave him up they're randomly removing thousands of other people and aren't going to stop.
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15:00 < gmaxwell> (particularly because if they stop it's easy for their shit platform to become an even MORE toxic cesspool than it already is)
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15:00 < gmaxwell> the fix is effective competition, so people have other places to go and so that twitter gets punished in the market for going too far.
15:01 < Emcy> that was parler....
15:02 < Emcy> look, its the same as how no is stopping you from being visibly MAGA irl and doing political rallies.....its jsut that antifa will come and hit you in the head and throw fireworks at you if you do
15:02 < Emcy> that is where the orthodoxy enforcement buck actually stops. and pretending that its not is all part of the minmaxing game
15:03 < Emcy> they know full well that there are thousands of activists going around the internet getting comp[etitors hosting/DNS/payments pulled with lies. They know it full well even as they say 'just start your own platform'
15:04 < Emcy> this is what im trying to say. Pretending its not like that is part of the game theory of making sure it *is* like that
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15:08 < Emcy> after parler is thouroughly murdered, theyll *still* be saying 'just start your own platform'
15:09 < gmaxwell> he is not saying just start your own platform
15:09 < gmaxwell> he is complaining that they're stomping out the viability of doing that.
15:09 < Emcy> like i read someone point out before, the big tech monolopy thoroughly enjoys s230 protections, then they turn around and use their overwhelming private power to effectively deny the same protections to smaller competitors by imposing foreign ToS on them
15:10 < Emcy> ToS that say they are personally responsible for user posts
15:10 < Emcy> they hypocrisy is stifling, and its why so many people are so angry
15:11 < gmaxwell> eyeroll. you're getting fucking bamboozled if you think s230 has any relationship to this except making it possible for small alternatives to exist at all.
15:12 < gmaxwell> s230 protection is essentially irrelevant to companies with a billion dollar a year revenue.  The only thing it does is protects them against some libel lawsuits which are almost never successful in the US anyways, but they're still runious to people who don't have a ton of money to go defending them.
15:12 < Emcy> no im not saying the law itself is directly involved here, im saying that big tech embraces the spirit behind that law, then turns around and denies that spirit to others
15:12 < gmaxwell> what spirit are you talking about?
15:13 < Emcy> that a platform cannot be punished for user content
15:13 < jigawatt> ok, thanks - I don't have a debuglevel specified so I think it's using 'info'. I'll try setting HSWC=debug and see what I get.
15:15 < gmaxwell> by the law, not by other people. Part of the argument given for that part of the CDDA in congress is that platforms that don't remove bad stuff will just have their users leave, so their behavior is already regulated by the marketplace.
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15:17 < Emcy> give me a little while and then ill try to read doctorows thread again a little more charitably
15:17 < gmaxwell> fair enough, I'll be back in a bit.
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15:26 < DeanGuss> https://hg1.funnyjunk.com/pictures/Cheap+even+familiar+sparrow_9b58c4_8193215.jpg
15:26 < Entitlement> DeanGuss - [ jpeg (1200 x 1203) ]
15:27 < DeanGuss> we have a long way to go with social media
15:28 < Emcy> it is getting to the point where entire parallel infrastructures are needed
15:28 < Emcy> and with parallel infrastructure will come parallel societies
15:28 < Emcy> that will not end well
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16:11 < jigawatt> With HSWC=debug, I can see the channels, but they're shown as short channel ids. Are those useable with lncli, or do I need to convert them to chan_id format?
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16:46 < midnight> eh. just a matter of time until someone writes a proper decentralized replacement with some neat features that kill all the old platforms.
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18:21 < phantomcircuit> ah yes the only way to get full performance was to write the tarball and then dd the tarball to the tape drive
18:22 < phantomcircuit> classic
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18:35 < gmaxwell> there may be some output buffering settings to tar
18:39 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there's a record size setting but the construction of the tar and the writing to the tape device seem to be sequential
18:39 < phantomcircuit> so it wastes a huge amount of time waiting around for the write to complete
18:40 < phantomcircuit> i was getting almost exactly half the performance i was expecting
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19:10 < ossifrage> phantomcircuit, there is a tool (buffer?) that will create a pipe buffer to deal with those cases
19:11 < ossifrage> It comes in handy when trying to make two variable/bursty speed things not block each other
19:14 < ossifrage> pv can do it, but there was another tool I used to use (not sure what it was called)
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20:15 < Emcy> https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1347887680911237120
20:15 < Emcy> "its a coup" they say
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20:56 < gmaxwell> ossifrage: I considered suggesting pv too, but I have to assume tar can do it itself.
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21:25 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i suspect that there's some option to do it, but it doesn't seem to do it by default
21:25 < phantomcircuit> which seems mildly insane to me
21:28 < gmaxwell> one problem with infinity old tools is that they keep outdated behavior to avoid breaking compatibility.
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21:44 < DeadWeen> .price bch btc
21:44 < deb0rah> binance 0.01501800 [+39.90%] | bittrex 0.01503586 [+39.69%] | southxchange 0.01524272 [+41.65%] | hitbtc 0.01500700 [+40.00%] | bleutrade 0.01440000 [+17.35%] | graviex 0.01999000 [+66.44%] | poloniex 0.01502252 [+40.04%] | kraken 0.01504000 [+40.30%] |
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22:33 < Emcy> lol ok
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22:41 < Emcy> gmaxwell i see what you mean about this thread now
22:41 < Emcy> actually, its a pretty big deal that he would admit that private censorship is still censorship
22:42 < Emcy> i dont agree with every point, but he makes some observations that are objectively true today
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22:55 < Emcy> https://nitter.net/rklau/status/1347978478977642501 nice thread. remember what i said about how you can only get customer service anymore if you give them a change to turn your problem into positive PR at the end?
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23:37 < Emcy> ;;tlast
23:37 <@gribble> 40842.35
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 10 00:00:11 2021